The New Lineup Thread

[Taro T]

You are viewing it differently then I am. You are viewing it from the I pay and deserve better angle. I am viewing it from the only reason to exist is to win Stanley Cups angle. Back to the original point, I don't think we need to freak out because Reinhart is starting at 3rd line center. After we got Jack and ROR it was inevitable. The hope should be that in 3-5 years when ROR starts to slow down a touch (hopefully 5 years) that Sam will be doing great and can bump ROR out to wing.

 

They started the tank 2 years prior to drafting Eichel. They are entering year SEVEN of the tank era. They are minimum 3 seasons from winning a Stanley Cup. And that is with having enough luck to stay healthy & not having a bad matchup against another up & comer. How in the world is waiting TEN YEARS for a CHANCE at a Stanley Cup better than building from where you are and having a shot w/in 3? Remember nothing is guaranteed.

 

Sorry, tanking sucks & there are better ways to build.

[LGR4GM]

They started the tank 2 years prior to drafting Eichel. They are entering year SEVEN of the tank era. They are minimum 3 seasons from winning a Stanley Cup. And that is with having enough luck to stay healthy & not having a bad matchup against another up & comer. How in the world is waiting TEN YEARS for a CHANCE at a Stanley Cup better than building from where you are and having a shot w/in 3? Remember nothing is guaranteed.

 

Sorry, tanking sucks & there are better ways to build.

That makes this year 4 of the tank era not 7. I do not agree about you having a shot within 2. Buffalo had Grigorenko and Girgensons as their top 2 centers in 2013. That was getting you anything. I don't think there was a way to build the team over 3 years without dismantling it first. 

 

Tanking does suck and there are better ways to build but in the summer of 2013 the best way for the Sabres to build was to tear it down and rebuild. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

They started the tank 2 years prior to drafting Eichel. They are entering year SEVEN of the tank era. They are minimum 3 seasons from winning a Stanley Cup. And that is with having enough luck to stay healthy & not having a bad matchup against another up & comer. How in the world is waiting TEN YEARS for a CHANCE at a Stanley Cup better than building from where you are and having a shot w/in 3? Remember nothing is guaranteed.

 

Sorry, tanking sucks & there are better ways to build.

Actually there aren't.  Go look at the draft history of Pitt, Chi, LA, and now Tor and Edm etc...  All have at least 3-5 years (or longer) within the bottom 5 of the standings.  Many similar stories, like Wash, TB and the NYI never get over the hump, but TB has played for a Cup and Wash has earned two President's Cups.  It's also very helpful for a rebuild to have competent management (TM and Darcy don't count) get some the 2nd rd picks to develop into top flight players and a late rd gem or two.

 

For example Edm (since 2007) first picks; 6 (plus 15 & 21), 22, 10, 1, 1, 1, 7, 3, 1, 4, 22 (6 of 7 in the bottom 5 and 7 straight years in the bottom 7)

Tor (since 2008) first picks 5, 7, 43, 22, 5, 21, 8, 4, 1, 17 (4 times in the bottom 5 [would have been 5 but for the Kessel trade] and 6 times in the bottom 8)  Toronto's core is Kadri (7th in 2009), Reilly (5th in 2012), Nylander (8th in 2014), Marner (4th in 2015) and Matthews (1st in 2016)

 

Pitts (from 2000 to 2007) first picks 18, 21, 5, 1, 2, 1, 2, 20  (4 straight years in the bottom 5 plus the lock out)

Chi (from 2000 to 2008) first picks 10 (& 11), 9, 21, 14, 3, 7, 3, 1, 11 (3 of 4 in the bottom 3, plus got lucky with Keith (54 in 2000), Seabrook (14 in 2003) Crawford (52 in 2003) Byfuglien (245 in 2003) & Hjalmarsson (108 in 2005)

 

Edm and Tor two might feel like overnight successes, but they have been at or near the bottom of the NHL for a decade.

 

Now compare us since 2012 with our 1st picks 12 (&14), 8 (&16), 2, 2, 8, 8.  We have been mediocre for years, but only twice at the real bottom of the league.  We have have nothing but McCabe to show for picks beyond the 1st rd. Besides Jake, of the 28 players drafted by the Sabres after the 1sr rd from 2012 to 2015, 8 have appeared in the NHL for a today of 105 games (but only 84 for the Sabres).  McCabe has 162, then Bailey has 40 and Ullmark 21.  Not exactly a great drafting job.  

 

Furthermor, ex-GMTM tried a different approach and traded away prospects, picks, and players to acclerate the rebuild by acquiring Kane, Bogo, Gorges, Kulikov, ROR and Lehner.  The results are mixed.  

Edited September 22, 2017 by GASabresFan

[sabills]

They started the tank 2 years prior to drafting Eichel. They are entering year SEVEN of the tank era. They are minimum 3 seasons from winning a Stanley Cup. And that is with having enough luck to stay healthy & not having a bad matchup against another up & comer. How in the world is waiting TEN YEARS for a CHANCE at a Stanley Cup better than building from where you are and having a shot w/in 3? Remember nothing is guaranteed.

 

Sorry, tanking sucks & there are better ways to build.

 

 

That makes this year 4 of the tank era not 7. I do not agree about you having a shot within 2. Buffalo had Grigorenko and Girgensons as their top 2 centers in 2013. That was getting you anything. I don't think there was a way to build the team over 3 years without dismantling it first. 

 

Tanking does suck and there are better ways to build but in the summer of 2013 the best way for the Sabres to build was to tear it down and rebuild. 

 

 

Well put.

 

I mean, take a look at the roster from that year: https://www.nhl.com/sabres/roster/2013

 

There was barely anything to tear down. Our best players, easily, were Miller, Vanek, Pomminstein, and Ehrhoff. They were gone shortly after, and never lit it up after they left anywhere else. That team was absolutely devoid of talent. You can talk about tanking by trading them away, but they were not helping us do anything.

[Drunkard]

I find it mildly interesting that folks are content to see our #2 overall pick play in a 3rd line role which will result in reduced ice time.  Sunk costs and all that, but we didn't tank for a 3rd line center.  Well, I guess we did.  But that wasn't what we were sold at the time.

 

To be fair, we didn't tank to stick a 2nd overall pick center on the wing either. Reinhart was drafted to be a center for us so it's important for him to get some experience there before we are seriously ready to contend. I agree that Reinhart needs to be surrounded by better talent though. I was hoping he'd get at least one of either Kane or Pominville but it looks like the guy who is supposed to earn $10+ million will be the one who gets propped up by our best wingers sans Okposo.

 

I just think getting Reinhart acclimated to the center position this season (while we're not going to seriously contend for the cup) is the right move long term for the franchise. Hopefully they keep him there and he can earn his stripes while the team is learning the new system and figuring out how to win together. Then maybe we'll get a chance to upgrade on the wings and some of our younger prospects (Mittelstadt, Nylander, Asplund, etc.) will be ready to provide some upgrades to the main roster in 2018-2019.

[dudacek]

What we've seen so far with Sam supports what We've and others have said about us not having enough good wingers.

But that shifted yesterday when Sam got Pominville and Kane while O'Reilly got Pouliot and scraps.

 

We have yet to see three balanced lines: say, Jack/Pommers, Sam/Evander Kyle/Ryan with the next three best players slotted with them based on chemistry.

Edited September 22, 2017 by dudacek

[Sabres Fan in NS]

What we've seen so far with Sam supports what We've and others have said about us not having enough good wingers.

But that shifted yesterday when Sam got Pominville and Kane while O'Reilly got Pouliot and scraps.

 

We have yet to see three balanced lines: say, Jack/Pommers, Sam/Evander Kyle/Ryan with the next three best players slotted with them based on chemistry.

 

This is what I want to see.

 

Hopefully on opening night.

[Taro T]

That makes this year 4 of the tank era not 7. I do not agree about you having a shot within 2. Buffalo had Grigorenko and Girgensons as their top 2 centers in 2013. That was getting you anything. I don't think there was a way to build the team over 3 years without dismantling it first. 

 

Tanking does suck and there are better ways to build but in the summer of 2013 the best way for the Sabres to build was to tear it down and rebuild.

 

Though my timeline was incorrect (there's a reason not to post while in a meeting :doh:) this is the 5th full season since Pominville was traded & the tank began not the 4th.

 

In October '13 the Sabres top C (shockingly) was Luke Adam (who was bumped down VERY quickly) and they also had Hodgson & Ennis. Not exactly Crosby & Malkin but better than a 2nd year player w/ 25 overmatched games under his belt & a rookie.

 

The team had pieces that could be swapped for hockey players rather than prospects & they had Pegula's wallet. Had they started the previous year retooling rather than rebuilding they might not have gone through 6 years in the wilderness.

 

The team had been in 1st place on 11/12/11 when the core was proven to be rotten. But, none the less, it was in 1st & could've been retooled. The tank shouldn't have happened.

 

& I AM glad they have Eichel & realize they almost certainly wouldn't have him w/out the tank. Doesn't change matters.

[dudacek]

As for who's stood out from the pack of wannabes, it seems pretty clear that ERod is winning the race early, probably with Griffith as the guy behind him. Haven't heard much from Baptiste or Fasching or Josefson or Moses. Bailey shone at development camp but has been poor in two exhibition games.

 

From the vets with questions, Girgensons has been given a shot and run with it. Bogo is earning raves. Pominville has been sharp. Scandella has been limited, causing concern, even if Phil says we shouldn't be. Been quiet on the Moulson/Gorges front. Housley's talked about needing to give Larsson time. Pouliot's probably brought what was expected.

[Randall Flagg]

I would love to have Larsson get better, Josefson to stand out as a solid defensive player, and those two to make up 2/3 of our 4th line, which can handle some minutes that are light in number but heavy in quality of opponent. 

[LGR4GM]

Though my timeline was incorrect (there's a reason not to post while in a meeting :doh:) this is the 5th full season since Pominville was traded & the tank began not the 4th.

 

In October '13 the Sabres top C (shockingly) was Luke Adam (who was bumped down VERY quickly) and they also had Hodgson & Ennis. Not exactly Crosby & Malkin but better than a 2nd year player w/ 25 overmatched games under his belt & a rookie.

 

The team had pieces that could be swapped for hockey players rather than prospects & they had Pegula's wallet. Had they started the previous year retooling rather than rebuilding they might not have gone through 6 years in the wilderness.

 

The team had been in 1st place on 11/12/11 when the core was proven to be rotten. But, none the less, it was in 1st & could've been retooled. The tank shouldn't have happened.

 

& I AM glad they have Eichel & realize they almost certainly wouldn't have him w/out the tank. Doesn't change matters.

Oh, you mean this season is the 5th year of the tank era. Okay I see what you mean. yes this is year 5 of the tank rebuild.

 

That's the beauty of having Jack, it changes everything and it matters. 

[dudacek]

I would love to have Larsson get better, Josefson to stand out as a solid defensive player, and those two to make up 2/3 of our 4th line, which can handle some minutes that are light in number but heavy in quality of opponent.

 

I think those two plus Fasching likely start as the fourth line, depending on what happens with Moulson.

There is still a small, unrealistic part of me that really wants Matt to succeed with Jack. (It's not something we've seen much of and that has always surprised me, considering Matt's track record in that role. Oh yeah, Bylsma.)

Sure would clear up some questions throughout the lineup.

[Weave]

I don't think tanking was a poor team building method at all. That said, the 2013 draft was the time to tank or at least mini tank. There were 7 players at the top of the draft and 4 were centers. MacKinnon, Lindholm, Monahan, Barkov. Then you had the non centers in Drouin, Jones, and Ristolainen. We got lucky in 2013 at #8 because The Oilers took Nurse instead of Risto. Now you look at 2014 and the full rebuild was going on. Darcy believed that Reinhart could be a 1st line NHL center. At the current moment we don't know if that is true and the best part is we don't have to. By tanking for Jack Eichel and trading for ROR we effectively added a generational type player and a top 5 2-way center allowing Reinhart to shift down.

 

I do not view the 3rd line as the 3rd best line or some energy line, or a grinding line, or a shutdown line. It is a mismatch line. Pouliot - Reinhart - Griffith/Bailey are going to be playing against teams with 3rd line centers. That is a matchup win for us. I think Reinhart can be a 2nd line center given time, but if my centers are so good he has to be on the 3rd line with #1pp time, sign me up.

Reinhart *might* prove to be a 3rd line mismatch. Poiliot and whoever else? They are typical 3rd liners. There is no obvious mismatch like there was with Vanek, Roy, and Max. It's just not there.

[North Buffalo]

What about Matty Mo on third if they have too, but he might fit in with Sam’s passing acumen.

[WildCard]

@Matt_Bove

#Sabres will have a party in the plaza before their first game on Thursday, Oct. 5.

[WildCard]

@Matt_Bove

#Sabres will be giving out tee-shirts  to all fans attending their game against the Canadiens on Thursday, Oct. 5.

[Thorner]

I don't think tanking was a poor team building method at all. That said, the 2013 draft was the time to tank or at least mini tank. There were 7 players at the top of the draft and 4 were centers. MacKinnon, Lindholm, Monahan, Barkov. Then you had the non centers in Drouin, Jones, and Ristolainen. We got lucky in 2013 at #8 because The Oilers took Nurse instead of Risto. Now you look at 2014 and the full rebuild was going on. Darcy believed that Reinhart could be a 1st line NHL center. At the current moment we don't know if that is true and the best part is we don't have to. By tanking for Jack Eichel and trading for ROR we effectively added a generational type player and a top 5 2-way center allowing Reinhart to shift down.

 

I do not view the 3rd line as the 3rd best line or some energy line, or a grinding line, or a shutdown line. It is a mismatch line. Pouliot - Reinhart - Griffith/Bailey are going to be playing against teams with 3rd line centers. That is a matchup win for us. I think Reinhart can be a 2nd line center given time, but if my centers are so good he has to be on the 3rd line with #1pp time, sign me up.

 

  

To be fair, we didn't tank to stick a 2nd overall pick center on the wing either. Reinhart was drafted to be a center for us so it's important for him to get some experience there before we are seriously ready to contend. I agree that Reinhart needs to be surrounded by better talent though. I was hoping he'd get at least one of either Kane or Pominville but it looks like the guy who is supposed to earn $10+ million will be the one who gets propped up by our best wingers sans Okposo.

 

I just think getting Reinhart acclimated to the center position this season (while we're not going to seriously contend for the cup) is the right move long term for the franchise. Hopefully they keep him there and he can earn his stripes while the team is learning the new system and figuring out how to win together. Then maybe we'll get a chance to upgrade on the wings and some of our younger prospects (Mittelstadt, Nylander, Asplund, etc.) will be ready to provide some upgrades to the main roster in 2018-2019.

I agree w/these two takes.

 

Thankfully we are in a position where it's easy to trust the line decisions of the new coaching staff, as they appear to be thouroghly examining multiple options including even asking the players for input.

[Doohicksie]

& I AM glad they have Eichel & realize they almost certainly wouldn't have him w/out the tank. Doesn't change matters.

 

Yes it does.  You can't have it both ways.

[Thorner]

^ one can be happy about the end but not thrilled with the means it took to get there.

[Taro T]

Yes it does.  You can't have it both ways.

  

 

Not having it both ways, Chicken Hat. Sorry, my bad, MR. Chicken Hat. ;)

 

^ one can be happy about the end but not thrilled with the means it took to get there.

Yep. Or, more precisely, the 3 seasons prior to this last one were interminably dreadful hockey to watch. Last season shouldn't have been, but were still bad because of the way the team was deployed. It appears (going w/ appears as a modifier due to the fact that the past 2 appeared they would be very watchable but weren't particularly) this season will be fun to watch & Eichel's a HUGE part of that. But I'm still not convinced that he's worth the soul ripping lethargy that the tank instilled in my attitude towards this team. Maybe he will be. But even if he is AND even if they win a Stanley Cup or 2, it isn't a guarantee that the team couldn't have gotten to a Stanley Cup championship by punting Regier earlier and BUILDING from where they were in '12 rather than starting a REbuild later.

 

The Tank was very costly in many ways. And whether it was worth it still isn't a given.

[Doohicksie]

Meh.  You're still wrong.

 

 

Somehow.

 

 

:unsure:

[LGR4GM]

I think we would be worse off now not better off if we hadn't tanked

[erickompositör72]

What about Matty Mo on third if they have too, but he might fit in with Sam’s passing acumen.

 

Even if they gelled and Moulson found his scoring touch, I don't think they should be on the same line as their lack of speed could be a detriment in Housley's system

 

The Tank was very costly in many ways. And whether it was worth it still isn't a given.

 

I agree to an extent. The tank - combined with years of unwatchable hockey - has the feel of some sort of video game cheat code. Yeah, you can win with it, but it doesn't feel the same as beating the game the "right" way...

 

I know other teams "tanked" ...but there was a certain deliberateness to our approach that made it seem kinda dirty...

 

luckily, Jack's brand of hockey is so unique and thrilling to me (rather watch him over McDavid) that - for me at least - it seems to be worth it. Even though the tank was deliberate, I think we still got super, super lucky with the player Jack will turn out to be.

[Thorner]

^ That's a key point. There is a certain value that can be attributed to having that true star player. Eichel will provide a type of joy to the fandom that wouldn't have otherwise been there. It's going to be fun to watch him, for many years.

[Pokey Jones]

I think the top line will likely start as Kane-Eichel-Pommer.   Pommer is not destined to stay there, he is a placeholder for Nylander (if he steps up) or somebody else.

 

ROR will play with Okposo and ?

 

Reinhart will centre the third line unless injuries force them to use him on the wing.

 

No idea on the rest right now.