Have the Sabres ever had a great GM?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Jbot is our 8th GM

 

Punch Imlach? He built the team through expansion and quickly into a contender.

 

Regier held the job the longest, he gets credit for building our 1st President's Cup squad, but also for the tank and terrible drafting.

 

Bowman didn't get us anywhere, either did Muckler or Meehan, but were almost always in the playoffs under their leadership.

 

Murray was a disaster and Anderson lasted one season.

 

I think the answer is no, with Punch the closest. Would we have won a Cup if we had drafted Bossy instead of Ric Seiling?

[dudacek]

Depends how you define great.

 

Punch was certainly the best; he had an expansion team in the finals in five years.

Perreault Martin and Schoenfeld - cornerstone building blocks in his first three first rounders, Gare and Ramsay picked in the second round.

Don Luce for Joe Daley? Korab for John Gould? Rene Robert for Eddie freaking Shack?

 

The Seiling pick was the classic mistake of drafting for need over BPA. ????

Edited June 25, 2017 by dudacek

[7+6=13]

Saying Murray was a disaster is utterly ridiculous.

[IKnowPhysics]

I usually don't crap too hard on Regier. He kept this team competitive in an unfair marketplace against teams with 10x the revenue. Drafting was one of his strongest suits, not one of his weakest- at least his ability to hire good drafters like Benning and Devine. For many years, he was deft at recognizing potential in pros and equally deft at fleecing teams for what sometimes ended up being franchise-changing talent. Additionally, in one of his first moves, he made the hard -but ultimately correct- decision on Nolan to straighten out the locker room. He stuck by his coach and his goalies, keeping a small market team mostly stable on the ice through three owners and a bankruptcy. His personnel moves almost always made good sense in contemporary context, even if time would show some of them to not work out at all. Ultimately, an unwillingness to negotiate contracts during the season despite a changing CBA-driven marketplace and several big player busts would lead to his decision to set the tank in motion, a decision that, even if successful, no GM could survive.

 

 

He also brought the team to the same high level as Imlach, but did so effectively twice and in an economic landscape that was more tilted. He challenges Imlach for top spot in my mind.

Edited June 25, 2017 by IKnowPhysics

[Radar]

Punch and Polian probably fans would say ere our best. We need to consider the time they held the position was much different. The free agency rules and expansion have changed things dramatically since those GM'S served. I think it's much more difficult to build and maintain a winning team today.

[Chester Springs Rich]

John Muckler.  Maybe you folks don't remember how he "tooled", then elevated the team with his drafting in the mid 90's.  He was responsible for the playoff runs we had from '97 - '01, not Reiger.

 

I feel Reiger ended up being a disappointment, big time.  Yea we can reply that he had his hands cuffed during the Adelphia debacle in '01 - '03.  When he had the chance to reset himself as a GM draft wise, he failed miserably in the drafts from '05 - '09.  Missing in those drafts played a big role to why the Sabres have suffered from '11 - forward.

[Weave]

I usually don't crap too hard on Regier. He kept this team competitive in an unfair marketplace against teams with 10x the revenue. Drafting was one of his strongest suits, not one of his weakest- at least his ability to hire good drafters like Benning and Devine. For many years, he was deft at recognizing potential in pros and equally deft at fleecing teams for what sometimes ended up being franchise-changing talent. Additionally, in one of his first moves, he made the hard -but ultimately correct- decision on Nolan to straighten out the locker room. He stuck by his coach and his goalies, keeping a small market team mostly stable on the ice through three owners and a bankruptcy. His personnel moves almost always made good sense in contemporary context, even if time would show some of them to not work out at all. Ultimately, an unwillingness to negotiate contracts during the season despite a changing CBA-driven marketplace and several big player busts would lead to his decision to set the tank in motion, a decision that, even if successful, no GM could survive.

 

 

He also brought the team to the same high level as Imlach, but did so effectively twice and in an economic landscape that was more tilted. He challenges Imlach for top spot in my mind.

 

I greatly disagree with you on Regier's drafting prowess.  One of the things that absolutely sunk this team was all of our first round failures during his regime.

 

Heisten, Kryukov, Novotny, Ballard in consecutive drafts in the first round says it all about Regier's drafting.

[Taro T]

John Muckler.  Maybe you folks don't remember how he "tooled", then elevated the team with his drafting in the mid 90's.  He was responsible for the playoff runs we had from '97 - '01, not Reiger.

 

I feel Reiger ended up being a disappointment, big time.  Yea we can reply that he had his hands cuffed during the Adelphia debacle in '01 - '03.  When he had the chance to reset himself as a GM draft wise, he failed miserably in the drafts from '05 - '09.  Missing in those drafts played a big role to why the Sabres have suffered from '11 - forward.

Muckler lucked into Hasek & had no ####ing idea what he had in Hasek & ONLY played him because he was forced to do so. Muckler's big money teams severely disappointed & his low budget ones were completely dependent on the goalie he didn't want. Regier's team that made it there in '99 was as well.

 

That '01 team that should've won the Stanley Cup had significant additions brought in by Regier & had it had Peca (who wasn't there due to the criminals' cash flow issues) or Iginla would've won it.

[Sabel79]

Muckler lucked into Hasek & had no ####ing idea what he had in Hasek & ONLY played him because he was forced to do so. Muckler's big money teams severely disappointed & his low budget ones were completely dependent on the goalie he didn't want. Regier's team that made it there in '99 was as well.

That '01 team that should've won the Stanley Cup had significant additions brought in by Regier & had it had Peca (who wasn't there due to the criminals' cash flow issues) or Iginla would've won it.

It can not be overstated how frustrating it was to watch Grant Fuhr continue to play for some reason, especially the season after Hasek won his first Veznia. Even my father, who isn't the most diehard of hockey fans, was given occasion to scream loudly at the television one bad evening: "Why is Fuhr still on this team!?" Maddening.

[tom webster]

I greatly disagree with you on Regier's drafting prowess. One of the things that absolutely sunk this team was all of our first round failures during his regime.

 

Heisten, Kryukov, Novotny, Ballard in consecutive drafts in the first round says it all about Regier's drafting.

Ballard was actually a great pick who ended up resulting in Drury. The rest of them, look st those draft classes and find players picked after them in the first round that would have made a difference. Those were bad years to be drafting in the 20's.

[inkman]

Muckler lucked into Hasek & had no ####ing idea what he had in Hasek & ONLY played him because he was forced to do so. Muckler's big money teams severely disappointed & his low budget ones were completely dependent on the goalie he didn't want. Regier's team that made it there in '99 was as well.

 

That '01 team that should've won the Stanley Cup had significant additions brought in by Regier & had it had Peca (who wasn't there due to the criminals' cash flow issues) or Iginla would've won it.

 

I was never a fan of Mucks (he looked like my Grandpa) but his track record in Buffalo isn't bad.  Outside of the Keith Carney / Craig Muni swap he did quite well.  At least in trades, I think there may have been other concerns. 

 

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/John_Muckler/67

[Eleven]

Saying Murray was a disaster is utterly ridiculous.

 

Yes it is, and it's become quite the theme around here.

[kas23]

Murray was actually an excellent GM. He just didn't mesh well with Pegs vision of how a GM should act.

[Robviously]

Murray was actually an excellent GM. He just didn't mesh well with Pegs vision of how a GM should act.

Yeah, he got us from last in the league to 5th last!  Name one other GM that could have us jump 4 spots after drafting Jack Eichel.  Plus we're guaranteed Moulson and Ennis for 2 more years and Bogo for three more.

 

Is next year too early to induct him into the Sabres Hall of Fame?

[Wyldnwoody44]

He wasn't terrible,

 

But... His choice and retention of DB was utterly not acceptable

[GASabresIUFAN]

Yeah, he got us from last in the league to 5th last!  Name one other GM that could have us jump 4 spots after drafting Jack Eichel.  Plus we're guaranteed Moulson and Ennis for 2 more years and Bogo for three more.

 

Is next year too early to induct him into the Sabres Hall of Fame?

And don't forget he spent $80 mil in real $ to do it.

[JohnRobertEichel]

Murray was actually an excellent GM. He just didn't mesh well with Pegs vision of how a GM should act.

 

Wow, "excellent" is quite the stretch. One can't ignore:

 

1. The current state of the defensemen corps.

2. Sticking with Bylsma.

3. The terrible Rochester AHL team.

4. Salary mismanagement, namely Bogo, Ennis, Gorges, and Moulson.

5. Already burning through all of our assets accumulated during the 6-year playoff drought.

6. Stalling and slightly regressing during the 2016-17 season to finish 5th worst in the league.

 

However, I will defend Murray from those already calling him a GM disaster. I believe his Buffalo legacy will ultimately be judged on the outcomes of:

 

1. the Reinhart selection

2. the Nylander selection

3. the Kane trade

4. the O'Reilly trade

5. the Lehner trade

 

We will probably need another 3 years minimum to fairly judge Murray. I happen to really like all of the aforementioned 5 players, so I think history will be kinder to him.

[darksabre]

I greatly disagree with you on Regier's drafting prowess. One of the things that absolutely sunk this team was all of our first round failures during his regime.

 

Heisten, Kryukov, Novotny, Ballard in consecutive drafts in the first round says it all about Regier's drafting.

Yup. Regier destroyed this team's depth. The Amerks have been a mess for years because of it.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Wow, "excellent" is quite the stretch. One can't ignore:

 

1. The current state of the defensemen corps.

2. Sticking with Bylsma.

3. The terrible Rochester AHL team.

4. Salary mismanagement, namely Bogo, Ennis, Gorges, and Moulson.

5. Already burning through all of our assets accumulated during the 6-year playoff drought.

6. Stalling and slightly regressing during the 2016-17 season to finish 5th worst in the league.

 

However, I will defend Murray from those already calling him a GM disaster. I believe his Buffalo legacy will ultimately be judged on the outcomes of:

 

1. the Reinhart selection

2. the Nylander selection

3. the Kane trade

4. the O'Reilly trade

5. the Lehner trade

 

We will probably need another 3 years minimum to fairly judge Murray. I happen to really like all of the aforementioned 5 players, so I think history will be kinder to him.

 

Even if all of part 2 of your post all work out, TP having to fire him 3 years into his plan makes him a disaster.  Also the Kane trade can't work out because Bogo is such a drag on our cap and on the ice as well as Kane will be gone by the deadline.  In addition, the trades you mentioned, plus deals like Fasching (sending a D prospect and 2 draft picks for one prospect), ultimately are what emptied our pipeline.  

 

GM's have to manage the cap, the prospect pipeline, hire good coaches and staff, draft well, make good trades, all to build a winner.  TM failed in most of these areas.  Some good trades and drafting a few no brainer picks like Eichel and Reinhart don't excuse the failing on the rest.

[Randall Flagg]

Yeah, he got us from last in the league to 5th last! Name one other GM that could have us jump 4 spots after drafting Jack Eichel. Plus we're guaranteed Moulson and Ennis for 2 more years and Bogo for three more.

 

Is next year too early to induct him into the Sabres Hall of Fame?

Hyperbole like this last line (and the other side does it too) is why this debate will be had here for years, even though nobody actually thinks like the hyperboles claim

[jeffismagic]

Darcy Regier had the best run as a Sabres GM when he traded for Drury and Briere. But after 2007 he no longer was lucky and his teams were awful. So my vote goes to early Regier.

[I-90 W]

DR was good but overvalued our players and prospects too much.

 

TM was also a good GM other than his DB affection.

 

JB the jury is still out of course, but I think he'll be even better than TM (more well rounded.

 

Anything before Darcy is before my time as a Sabres fan. I think we've had pretty good GM's all things considered. Right now I think we have a top notch group of owner/ GM/ HC. 

[Marvelo]

I was never a fan of Mucks (he looked like my Grandpa) but his track record in Buffalo isn't bad.  Outside of the Keith Carney / Craig Muni swap he did quite well.  At least in trades, I think there may have been other concerns. 

 

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/John_Muckler/67

 

Great link. You can look up the trades  by Imlach (most of his trades from 77 on were for cash), Regier, Bowman, Meehan (who pulled off the Hasek, Mogilny Hawerchuk and Lafontaine deals) and the rest, which is fascinating. ..Lots of hockey failure came through Buffalo on those trades through the years..and a few shining examples of success too.

 

I was reading "Heaven and Hell in the NHL," Punch Imlach's book, a great read that covers his tenure with the Sabres, He said the '74-75 team should have won the cup but for the goaltending and then stalled after that. FF to '99 and the Sabres had the Stars goalie beat but not so much for the rest of the team.  

 

I believe that Punch got lucky that he won the lottery on Perreault instead of getting a Dale Tallon. The fact that Tim Murray didn't get Connor McDavid (although Eichel is no Dale Tallon)  and Ekblad may have ruined his regime. I did not like how he was given such a short leash but what's done is done. Being lucky helps.

 

The great enabler/preventer is ownership. They all choked in the clutch along with the GMs. None of the GMs, management or owners could really put it together at the end for a Cup so I wouldn't call any of them great, at least not while they were with the Sabres.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Marvelo

[GoPuckYourself]

No, we've never had a great GM imo.

[Weave]

The great enabler/preventer is ownership, all of whom I believed choked in the clutch along with the GMs. None of the GMs could really put it together at the end for a Cup so I wouldn't call any of them great, at least not when they were with the Sabres.

We're getting somewhere now.

 

The Knox's, rightfully beloved by the fanbase, didn't have the coin to play with the big boys, and it showed.

 

Rigas was a crook who was in it to bleed the pig. He lucked into inheriting Hasek, otherwise we'd have looked like the Bill Wirtz version of the Blackhawks.

 

Golisano just wanted to break even every fiscal year.

 

The Pegulas have what we've always wanted our owners to have, Knox passion and dollars to back it up. So far their fatal flaw had been in steering the ox. Hopefully they learn how to get it right while there is still a desire to win.

Edited June 25, 2017 by We've