Tim Murray Press Conference 2:00 PM EST

[GASabresIUFAN]

Bogosian is the only dead weight he added in his attempts to accelerate things. Neither O'Reilly nor Kane fall into that category.

 

If we compare:

O'Reilly - Kadri

Kane - JVR

Risto - Rielly

Eichel - Matthews

Nylander - Nylander

Reinhart - Marner

Bogo - Gardiner

McCabe - Zaitsev

 

Sure, Gardiner obliterates Bogo, and their Nylander is currently more useful in the NHL than ours, but I don't see some massive talent gap on the whole for the key pieces. Certainly not to the point where the rebuilds cannot be compared to one another. If Murray doesn't whiff on Bogo/Kulikov, we're talking marginal talent differences at best between the squads.

But you don't go the next step.  We don't have nearly the depth they do at either O or D and their kids have stepped up across the board (guys like Brown and Carrick (both late round 2012 picks), while we are still trying to figure out if Bailey, Baptiste, Carrier and Fasching are even NHL players.  They have 3 excellent scoring lines with guys like Brown (20 goals) and Bozak (55pts) on their 3rd line. Hell their 4th center Komarov, scored 14 goals.   Their defense which isn't very good either is at least 6 players deep with actual NHL players.  FYI I'd say Gardiner vs Risto, Kulikov vs Zaitsev, Reilly vs McCabe, Hunwick vs Franson, Carrick vs Bogo, Polak vs Gorges.  Their 4th best D put up 19 pts. Their top 3 scored 43, 36 and 27.  Our 4th best had 11 pts.  Our top 3 were 43, 20, 19.  Face it, the leafs are a deeper team and right now better team.  

 

Their GM gets D depth like Zaitsev, Hunwick, Carrick and Polak for 5.13 while our GM gets us Kulikov, Bogo, Franson & Gorges for 20 million.  If that doesn't put an exclamation mark on why they are successful and we aren't, I don't know what will.  And they were creative in how they got these players.  Carrick was a deadline trade in 2015.  Polak was a value UFA signing this off-season, Zaitsev they plucked out of the KHL.  They signed Hunwick in 2015 to a two year $2.4 million deal the same year we signed Franson for 2 years 6.6 mill.   For the extra 4.2 mill we got the same amount of ice time, similar Corsi numbers and 10 additional points.  (or 420K per assist).

 

Face it their GM gave their Cup winning coach value clay to mold.  Our GM gave our Cup winning coach expensive crap that needed to be flushed.

Edited April 14, 2017 by GASabresFan

[Huckleberry]

But you don't go the next step.  We don't have nearly the depth they do at either O or D and their kids have stepped up across the board (guys like Brown and Carrick (both late round 2012 picks), while we are still trying to figure out if Bailey, Baptiste, Carrier and Fasching are even NHL players.  They have 3 excellent scoring lines with guys like Brown (20 goals) and Bozak (55pts) on their 3rd line. Hell their 4th center Komarov, scored 14 goals.   Their defense which isn't very good either is at least 6 players deep with actual NHL players.  FYI I'd say Gardiner vs Risto, Kulikov vs Zaitsev, Reilly vs McCabe, Hunwick vs Franson, Carrick vs Bogo, Polak vs Gorges.  Their 4th best D put up 19 pts. Their top 3 scored 43, 36 and 27.  Our 4th best had 11 pts.  Our top 3 were 43, 20, 19.  Face it, the leafs are a deeper team and right now better team.  

 

Their GM gets D depth like Zaitsev, Hunwick, Carrick and Polak for 5.13 while our GM gets us Kulikov, Bogo, Franson & Gorges for 20 million.  If that doesn't put an exclamation mark on why they are successful and we aren't, I don't know what will.  And they were creative in how they got these players.  Carrick was a deadline trade in 2015.  Polak was a value UFA signing this off-season, Zaitsev they plucked out of the KHL.  They signed Hunwick in 2015 to a two year $2.4 million deal the same year we signed Franson for 2 years 6.6 mill.   For the extra 4.2 mill we got the same amount of ice time, similar Corsi numbers and 10 additional points.  (or 420K per assist).

 

Face it their GM gave their Cup winning coach value clay to mold.  Our GM gave our Cup winning coach expensive crap that needed to be flushed.

 

Yup I said for a while now, the big difference between us and toronto is their 3rd and 4th line producing.     Just like with us those guys were their top 6 the last two years.

But our former top 6, Girgensons, moulson, ennis, aren't producing enough 5V5.

 

Edit: to make matters worse, look at the marlies this year, next year you might see Rychel and Kapanen also in the leafs line up.   Their forward depth is just much better.

Well their forward depth made it to the NHL, we are still waiting on Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Carrier to prove they can push out Gionta, Moulson, Ennis, Girgensons from the bottom 6.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Huckleberry

[darksabre]

Um. Did we know he was that kind of garbage going into it? I didn't.

I'd say there's a core group of us who knew what went on with him in Pittsburgh. He had to make his case to GMTM that he learned things in his time away. It's very clear that he didn't.

[PASabreFan]

Um.  Did we know he was that kind of garbage going into it?  I didn't.

He wasn't and isn't garbage.

 

I'd say there's a core group of us who knew what went on with him in Pittsburgh. He had to make his case to GMTM that he learned things in his time away. It's very clear that he didn't.

This is... how do you kids say? Rich? Again, if Dan had done it in Buffalo, he'd be in the pantheon of greats. As we learned, it would take decades to get rid of the guy.

[darksabre]

He wasn't and isn't garbage.

 

This is... how do you kids say? Rich? Again, if Dan had done it in Buffalo, he'd be in the pantheon of greats. As we learned, it would take decades to get rid of the guy.

Thankfully we weren't blessed with a coach who could set everything up only to be fired and let Bylsma take all the credit. We've got 100% pure Bylsma. And it smells like poo.

[WildCard]

This just isn't true man.

I think the point he's trying to make is that the notion that the Leafs talent base was do much more mature than ours really isn't true, because we went out and added O'Reilly, Kane, and Okposo (whom I forgot to list in my post). Yea, they technically started compiling high draft picks sooner than us, but that got balanced out by subsequent moves.

Yup, this is what I meant. True explained it better than I tried to

Edited April 14, 2017 by WildCard

[darksabre]

Yup, this is what I meant. True explained it better than I tried to

Okay, that makes sense. I'm just thinking about how they've been developing guys like Kadri forever. I feel like they've been rebuilding forever. 

[Doohickie]

I'd say there's a core group of us who knew what went on with him in Pittsburgh. He had to make his case to GMTM that he learned things in his time away. It's very clear that he didn't.

 

That was the problem, wasn't it?  He said he spent his year off studying the game and coming up with a new approach.  We now know he lied.  Not sure who else GMTM talked to besides Babcock for the coaching position, but at that point if the lie was to be believed, DD might have appeared to be the best choice.

[darksabre]

That was the problem, wasn't it?  He said he spent his year off studying the game and coming up with a new approach.  We now know he lied.  Not sure who else GMTM talked to besides Babcock for the coaching position, but at that point if the lie was to be believed, DD might have appeared to be the best choice.

Right. I mean, I can't fault GMTM for buying into Bylsma's pitch if it was made honestly. Maybe Bylsma even believed that he'd learned something. But it sure doesn't look like it from here. 

 

The way I look at it, GMTM trusted Dan, and ultimately had no reason not to. Hell, most of us who didn't like Bylsma on day one still said we were willing to give him a chance to change our minds. 

[Doohickie]

Our GM gave our Cup winning coach expensive crap that needed to be flushed.

 

The Sabres organization was a different animal when GMTM first came on.  They were tanking HARD.  Those deals are hurting us now, but at the time the team was suffering from a serious lack of credibility in terms of actually trying to win.  Back then the team was still feeling the loss of Drury and Briere to free agency and the subsequent acquisitions that didn't work out at tall, like Ville Leino.  GMTM brought on a few veterans like Moulson, Gionta and Gorges and at the time we all rejoiced that players like that actually *chose* to sign with Buffalo.  GMTM had to pay a premium to prime the pump, and it worked:  ROR signed an extension after the trade, Okposo signed with us.  Buffalo is still not hockey heaven, but free agents will at least consider the Sabres as a valid option.  I think without the expensive crap signings, as you put it, we might still be paying that premium to convince free agents to come here.  The expensive crap signings were part of relaunching the Sabres. 

 

I think the Gionta acquisition was perfect.  He's provided leadership, but is at the point where he will hand it off to a younger leader.  He's played well in a third line role.  I think he worked out precisely as envisioned.  Gorges has been a soldier, and rolling off next year will be perfect because his cap space will roll over to the RFAs.  Gorges's performance on the ice has been not so great, but I put a good chunk of that on DD in terms of the crap system and the way he uses Gorges specifically.  He should have been on a third pairing by now.  But in the grand sweep of things, the acquisition of Gorges accomplished its purpose.  Moulson is the one that stings.  Last year he was terrible.  This year only looks good if compared to last year's performance.  Unlike Gionta, he hasn't adapted his game to adjust to a new role and it's unlikely he will.  When he was signed he projected to produce much more offensively but it just hasn't happened.  For whatever reason, he's been a bust.

 

But going back in time to when these guys were all signed, the Sabres were desperate to establish their credibility as an organization.  The Sabres will get past their contracts and move on.

[TrueBlueGED]

He wasn't and isn't garbage .

 

This is... how do you kids say? Rich? Again, if Dan had done it in Buffalo, he'd be in the pantheon of greats. As we learned, it would take decades to get rid of the guy.

I'm not really in the mood to litigate his Pittsburgh days, but I'm perfectly comfortable saying he's garbage now. Dan Bylsma is a bad coach. His system is dated and doesn't work in general, it doesn't fit the roster in particular anyway, and he doesn't have the respect of the room. If that's not a bad coach, I don't know what is.

[SwampD]

He wasn't and isn't garbage.

 

 

This is... how do you kids say? Rich? Again, if Dan had done it in Buffalo, he'd be in the pantheon of greats. As we learned, it would take decades to get rid of the guy.

Awesome.

[PASabreFan]

That was the problem, wasn't it?  He said he spent his year off studying the game and coming up with a new approach.  We now know he lied.  Not sure who else GMTM talked to besides Babcock for the coaching position, but at that point if the lie was to be believed, DD might have appeared to be the best choice.

Lied seems like the wrong word choice there.

[Sabre fan]

Yup I said for a while now, the big difference between us and toronto is their 3rd and 4th line producing.     Just like with us those guys were their top 6 the last two years.

But our former top 6, Girgensons, moulson, ennis, aren't producing enough 5V5.

 

Edit: to make matters worse, look at the marlies this year, next year you might see Rychel and Kapanen also in the leafs line up.   Their forward depth is just much better.

Well their forward depth made it to the NHL, we are still waiting on Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Carrier to prove they can push out Gionta, Moulson, Ennis, Girgensons from the bottom 6.

truth is I live north of Toronto and trust me Leaf fans were ready to run Kardi, JVR, Gardiner (especially) and any other Leaf right out of town and they constantly complained about the team and the players to no end...the big thing now is they have a coach who is getting the most out of each player and letting them do whatever it is they do well. asking players to do things they just ain't capable of is just poor coaching and shoving a defensive type system down their throat is the sure way to failure and exposing players weaknesses by asking them to do things they can't do. I still think the talent is here...just need to put it to better use and in the right circumstances...

[Taro T]

That was the problem, wasn't it?  He said he spent his year off studying the game and coming up with a new approach.  We now know he lied to himself. .  Not sure who else GMTM talked to besides Babcock for the coaching position, but at that point if the lie was to be believed, DD might have appeared to be the best choice.

Fixed that for you. ;)

 

He got his head to buy in that a new approach was needed, but never believed it in his heart. Or, at minimum never believed in the approach he came up with in his heart.

 

That's obvious. As soon as the team has a lead he reflexively falls back into a hang on for dear life shell & far too often turns 2 goal leads into regulation losses. When the 3rd period rolls around & they're still down, he finally lets them play hockey but only out of desperation.

 

He doesn't have faith in what he learned during his downtime & the team doesn't have faith in his fallback, tried & true.

 

If he really is back, they'll sneak into the playoffs - pretty much on Eichel's and a few others sheer will alone. But, the playoffs ratchet up the stress level & just don't see a way that Bylsma's true self won't sabotage any chance the team would have at advancing. They'll let the other team pound them if they have a lead, thus ensuring it is short lived, & won't turn on the attack until it is too late. That combined w/ having 1/2 as many pp chances as they'd have in the RS will doom them to a quick 1st round exit AND minimum 1 additional year of getting Bylsma'd.

[Doohickie]

Sounds about right.  All of it.

Lied seems like the wrong word choice there.

 

Yeah, I think Taro's put works.

[MattPie]

Lied seems like the wrong word choice there.

 

I posted this awhile back but it boils down to a few things:

- Byslma has changed things that in his mind make it different, but to the observer they look the same.

- He wanted to change things, but when met with adversity, he went to his happy place.

- He doesn't feel like the team is good enough to play the new system, so he's relying on the old until roster changes happen and he can unleash the Byslmatic 2.0 on unsuspecting NHL clubs.

 

My argument for the third bullet is that's playing scared. Maybe in a playoff series you do that to tailor it to a particular teams' strengths and weaknesses, but you should be playing the ideal system in the regular season to get the players on the right page.

[darksabre]

I posted this awhile back but it boils down to a few things:

- Byslma has changed things that in his mind make it different, but to the observer they look the same.

- He wanted to change things, but when met with adversity, he went to his happy place.

- He doesn't feel like the team is good enough to play the new system, so he's relying on the old until roster changes happen and he can unleash the Byslmatic 2.0 on unsuspecting NHL clubs.

 

My argument for the third bullet is that's playing scared. Maybe in a playoff series you do that to tailor it to a particular teams' strengths and weaknesses, but you should be playing the ideal system in the regular season to get the players on the right page.

I mean, that's the point of establishing a system on a team that is rebuilding right? You say "this is the system we want to play even though we might be short a few guys at the moment". But at least they're using the system you want to use going forward, and if/when your GM gets you those guys you need to really make it click...then it should just click, right? 

[MattPie]

I mean, that's the point of establishing a system on a team that is rebuilding right? You say "this is the system we want to play even though we might be short a few guys at the moment". But at least they're using the system you want to use going forward, and if/when your GM gets you those guys you need to really make it click...then it should just click, right? 

 

That's what I would say. I think that's what Babcock is doing; play the "right" way even if the D is tire fire and we'll see where the chips fall.

[Taro T]

I mean, that's the point of establishing a system on a team that is rebuilding right? You say "this is the system we want to play even though we might be short a few guys at the moment". But at least they're using the system you want to use going forward, and if/when your GM gets you those guys you need to really make it click...then it should just click, right?

 

Sounds good on paper. ;)

 

BUT ... what if the system you want to install is soooooo ####ing complicated thst it takes minimum 1.5 seasons for a player to get up to speed & 2 for the typical player to get up to speed? Then, at any given point in time (assuming ONLY 4 players swap out each year - which is a low estimate) one is looking at having 6-8 players learning the system rather than learning their linemates. Murray had better be a great talent evaluator, so that either the 10-12 guys that do know what they're doing can carry the guys that are learning or those guys that are learning can fake it & still be productive going at 80% or some combination of the 2.

[Doohickie]

Any system that complicated is not a workable system.

[Taro T]

Any system that complicated is not a workable system.

Is that what it would say on blackboard 10? :p

 

(Thankfully, the Sabres' system only requires 9. ;))

[MattPie]

Is that what it would say on blackboard 10? :P

 

(Thankfully, the Sabres' system only requires 9. ;))

 

My system goes to 11

[TrueBlueGED]

Canvas > Blackboard.

[Doohickie]

Is that what it would say on blackboard 10? :P

 

(Thankfully, the Sabres' system only requires 9. ;))

 

See?  That shows what an old school system it is.  Nowadays they use whiteboards.