Tank 3.0

[wjag]

 

 

Eichel`s biggest issue is that he hasn`t found chemistry with any of the wingers on this team yet. he is on pace for 25 goals and plays on PP2 and and Gionta as a winger. Think he is doing just fine.

 

I would think the transition from playing once or twice a week in college to 3 to 4 times is effecting him as well. 

 

 

we are starting to see why GMTM was so upset on lottery night. I love Eichel and he will be a star in this league for a long time - he just isn`t Connor McDavid.

 

 

I think a 25g 25a year is realistic for him.  I'd take that for rookie campaign.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

McDavid seems for frail, IMO.

 

I realize both are just kids, but Eich seems more developed in that way.  Maybe it's just me.

 

Connor has had a pretty serious injury already, in his rookie season.

[PASabreFan]

McDavid seems for frail, IMO.

 

I realize both are just kids, but Eich seems more developed in that way.  Maybe it's just me.

 

Connor has had a pretty serious injury already, in his rookie season.

And a broken hand in the OHL. Brittle bones I tell ya.

[nfreeman]

And if you had a vajayjay you'd be my Aunt Liger.

Good talk PA

 

Well, you 2 meatheads cracked me right up with that exchange.

 

All right. Let's re-open the wound. This board continues to suffer from the fact that the term tank was never defined here. How is tanking different than rebuilding? I think tanking is something that's done on a game by game basis in order to increase the chances of losing a particular game. I don't think it's that common. The Penguins brought up a minor league goaltender late in the season preceding the Lemieux draft. That's tanking. Rebuilding is an overall strategy. The Sabres did a rebuild that was about as dramatic as ever seen, but it still wasn't a tank.

 

Incoming... heads up... trigger warning, as the kids say... Dan Bylsma's player usage reeks of tanking more than anything Ted Nolan did. Better, but not too much better —GMTM

 

No and no.

 

The Sabres clearly tanked last year, and it wasn't a series of game-time decisions.  They traded away all of their goalies.  They traded 2 important (albeit disappointing) roster players in Myers and Stafford for a guy who was out for the rest of the year.  They brought in 2 terrible defensemen in free agency, and a coaching staff that was in far over its head.

 

As for DDB, if he were tanking, ROR wouldn't be leading the NHL in ice time among forwards and the Sabres wouldn't have the 2nd-best power play in the NHL.

 

 

No, and this is where any disappointment I have springs from. It's not Jack's fault, either. The media and scouts were the ones using the word.

 

Once I adjusted my expectations for Eichel, there's no real disappointment left. I'm happy to watch him grow, and have high hopes for his future. I just hope he gets to a Tavares/Stamkos/Getzlaf tier instead of expecting him to pass it.

 

It was always unfair to expect him to surpass the level of those 3, all of whom are likely HOFers.  Still, I kinda hoped that he would do so, and I haven't yet given up hope.

 

#scarredfans. This ain't a tank in any way, shape or form.

 

Correct.

 

Yes, but more Malkin generational than Crosby generational.

 

It took the Sabres two years to do to many fans what it took the Bills 15 years to do to you :P

 

It's been 8.5 years.  Black Sunday was 7/1/07.  That's when we (the fan base) got disemboweled, and we still aren't all the way back in. 

 

I need to see it before I jump in with both feet again.

 

 

Eichel`s biggest issue is that he hasn`t found chemistry with any of the wingers on this team yet. he is on pace for 25 goals and plays on PP2 and and Gionta as a winger. Think he is doing just fine.

 

I would think the transition from playing once or twice a week in college to 3 to 4 times is effecting him as well. 

 

 

we are starting to see why GMTM was so upset on lottery night. I love Eichel and he will be a star in this league for a long time - he just isn`t Connor McDavid.

 

 

This.  (And it pains me to say it but there are plenty of posters here who were triumphantly proclaiming that we are better off with Eichel than we would've been with McD.)

[Eleven]

Well, you 2 meatheads cracked me right up with that exchange.

 

 

No and no.

 

The Sabres clearly tanked last year, and it wasn't a series of game-time decisions.  They traded away all of their goalies.  They traded 2 important (albeit disappointing) roster players in Myers and Stafford for a guy who was out for the rest of the year.  They brought in 2 terrible defensemen in free agency, and a coaching staff that was in far over its head.

 

As for DDB, if he were tanking, ROR wouldn't be leading the NHL in ice time among forwards and the Sabres wouldn't have the 2nd-best power play in the NHL.

 

 

 

It was always unfair to expect him to surpass the level of those 3, all of whom are likely HOFers.  Still, I kinda hoped that he would do so, and I haven't yet given up hope.

 

 

Correct.

 

 

It's been 8.5 years.  Black Sunday was 7/1/07.  That's when we (the fan base) got disemboweled, and we still aren't all the way back in. 

 

I need to see it before I jump in with both feet again.

 

 

This.  (And it pains me to say it but there are plenty of posters here who were triumphantly proclaiming that we are better off with Eichel than we would've been with McD.)

 

 

Come ON.  They won the division in 2010 and no one was excited?

[That Aud Smell]

Does everyone still think Eichel is a generational player talent?

 

As modified, yes.

 

Once he clicks with a good NHL finisher, it'll be Katy bar the door for those we play.

[nfreeman]

Come ON.  They won the division in 2010 and no one was excited?

 

Of course we were excited.  But it still felt like a "you gotta prove it to me before I really believe again" vibe.  And they didn't.  They got bounced in the first round, then blew a 3-2 lead in the first round the next year and didn't bother to show up for game 7.

 

Fragile little children, you might say.

[TrueBlueGED]

As modified, yes.

 

Once he clicks with a good NHL finisher, it'll be Katy bar the door for those we play.

I like this talent vs player take on it. That he needs work to put it all together in the NHL should not let us downplay his absolutely off the charts skill set.

[LTS]

All right. Let's re-open the wound. This board continues to suffer from the fact that the term tank was never defined here. How is tanking different than rebuilding? I think tanking is something that's done on a game by game basis in order to increase the chances of losing a particular game. I don't think it's that common. The Penguins brought up a minor league goaltender late in the season preceding the Lemieux draft. That's tanking. Rebuilding is an overall strategy. The Sabres did a rebuild that was about as dramatic as ever seen, but it still wasn't a tank.

 

Incoming... heads up... trigger warning, as the kids say... Dan Bylsma's player usage reeks of tanking more than anything Ted Nolan did. Better, but not too much better —GMTM

 

I agree here. I never thought it was a tank. It was a rebuild and the subtleties are there. 

 

Well, you 2 meatheads cracked me right up with that exchange.

 

 

No and no.

 

The Sabres clearly tanked last year, and it wasn't a series of game-time decisions.  They traded away all of their goalies.  They traded 2 important (albeit disappointing) roster players in Myers and Stafford for a guy who was out for the rest of the year.  They brought in 2 terrible defensemen in free agency, and a coaching staff that was in far over its head.

 

As for DDB, if he were tanking, ROR wouldn't be leading the NHL in ice time among forwards and the Sabres wouldn't have the 2nd-best power play in the NHL.

 

 

 

It was always unfair to expect him to surpass the level of those 3, all of whom are likely HOFers.  Still, I kinda hoped that he would do so, and I haven't yet given up hope.

 

 

Correct.

 

 

It's been 8.5 years.  Black Sunday was 7/1/07.  That's when we (the fan base) got disemboweled, and we still aren't all the way back in. 

 

I need to see it before I jump in with both feet again.

 

 

This.  (And it pains me to say it but there are plenty of posters here who were triumphantly proclaiming that we are better off with Eichel than we would've been with McD.)

 

The Sabres moved all assets that were not part of a long term team that had any value. This included the goaltenders. It's not tanking, it's rebuilding. They both result in the team losing. The move for Kane was also done for the same reason. We all knew that Stafford and Myers would not be around for the long term.  The only potential signs are the two terrible defensemen but then most UFA D are not that good.

 

I don't think Bylsma is tanking this year. However, I do think there is a subscribed plan that is designed to develop the framework of how the team will play.  They aren't deep and we're seeing the results of that. Pysyk and Ennis being out of the lineup make a big difference.

 

There is questionable player usage (specifically Gionta).  I don't think it's a calculated tank move however.

[SwampD]

C'mon PA, there is a difference between rebuilding and tanking. All tanks are rebuilds, but not all rebuilds are tanks. When you play Kaleta at center instead of bringing someone up, you are tanking.

 

I have to say that GMTM's comments during the first intermission with Brian Koziol have me less than enthused. In his mind, he may not be actively trying to lose anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's not actively trying to win just yet.

 

Wish I could find the audio.

[That Aud Smell]

I have to say that GMTM's comments during the first intermission with Brian Koziol have me less than enthused. In his mind, he may not be actively trying to lose anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's not actively trying to win just yet.

 

That would be good audio to have - I heard most of it as well.

[LTS]

C'mon PA, there is a difference between rebuilding and tanking. All tanks are rebuilds, but not all rebuilds are tanks. When you play Kaleta at center instead of bringing someone up, you are tanking.

 

I have to say that GMTM's comments during the first intermission with Brian Koziol have me less than enthused. In his mind, he may not be actively trying to lose anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's not actively trying to win just yet.

 

Wish I could find the audio.

 

He's not.. he said it last year too.  He wants to be out of the basement but not in the playoffs.  He wants a shot at those top 3 picks this year.

[tom webster]

He's not.. he said it last year too.  He wants to be out of the basement but not in the playoffs.  He wants a shot at those top 3 picks this year.

 

 

That might be your opinion, but not his words. Listen to WGR550 audio vault from yesterday. He is disappointed at the moment and will be disappointed if they finish at 80 points. However, he  did say he will not trade for a veteran that might add 4 to 6 points in the standing if it means giving up a valued prospect. He did say he would "help" the team if he thought they were challenging for a playoff spot. He is still looking long term but still expects them to be better this season. He has never said he wants a top three pick this year but did say it would be a nice consolation prize if they didn't make the playoffs.

[PASabreFan]

C'mon PA, there is a difference between rebuilding and tanking. All tanks are rebuilds, but not all rebuilds are tanks. When you play Kaleta at center instead of bringing someone up, you are tanking.

 

I have to say that GMTM's comments during the first intermission with Brian Koziol have me less than enthused. In his mind, he may not be actively trying to lose anymore, but I'm pretty sure he's not actively trying to win just yet.

 

Wish I could find the audio.

I was less than enthused by how he said the goal is to get younger. If Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching and whoever they draft next year are part of the core, the window for contending just got extended into the five-year range, something Murray said he wasn't interested in. Also, how does one of the youngest teams in the league get younger next year? How does that math work?

[That Aud Smell]

I was less than enthused by how he said the goal is to get younger. If Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching and whoever they draft next year are part of the core, the window for contending just got extended into the five-year range, something Murray said he wasn't interested in. Also, how does one of the youngest teams in the league get younger next year? How does that math work?

 

I'm not sure you're accurately recalling or summarizing what GM TM has said he planned to do. Especially on the bolded.

 

It makes good sense to me that he envisioned some of his placeholder vets as not part of his long-term vision for a contending team. Gionta. Moulson. Franson. Hell, even Gorges.

 

Move on from some or all of those guys over the next season or two, and you get a lot younger.

[PASabreFan]

I'm not sure you're accurately recalling or summarizing what GM TM has said he planned to do. Especially on the bolded.

 

It makes good sense to me that he envisioned some of his placeholder vets as not part of his long-term vision for a contending team. Gionta. Moulson. Franson. Hell, even Gorges.

 

Move on from some or all of those guys over the next season or two, and you get a lot younger.

He said something to the effect that he could have a five-year plan to contend, which would ensure job security, but he didn't want it to take that long. Certainly the O'Reilly, Kane and Lehner trades support that idea.

 

As for getting younger by veteran attrition, I guess it's all in the timing. I wouldn't put Moulson in there. Five years at five million and not part of the vision?

 

Personally, I'm still looking forward to more picks/prospects/kids for more O'Reillys.

[That Aud Smell]

Personally, I'm still looking forward to more picks/prospects/kids for more O'Reillys.

 

Hear, hear.

 

And I recall him saying what you're alluding to. That he didn't want the turnaround to take 5 years. I do think that he wants to be competing for a playoff spot on that shorter turnaround, but maybe understands the Cup contending comes in the year 5 range.

[tom webster]

He said something to the effect that he could have a five-year plan to contend, which would ensure job security, but he didn't want it to take that long. Certainly the O'Reilly, Kane and Lehner trades support that idea.

 

As for getting younger by veteran attrition, I guess it's all in the timing. I wouldn't put Moulson in there. Five years at five million and not part of the vision?

 

Personally, I'm still looking forward to more picks/prospects/kids for more O'Reillys.

 

Getting younger as in Gionta,  Moulson, Weber and maybe McGinn  turning into 23/25 year old players. Getting younger doesn't set anything back. You asked how the Math works well figure it out, he is not trading O'Reilly, likely not trading Kane although I wouldn't rule that out. He's got 4 or 5 of his top 9 and 2 or 3 of his top 5 defenseman. When Jack and Sam are ready to help O'Reilly lead the charge, they will need some 25 year old wingers.

[pi2000]

If we get towards end of Jan, early Feb, and playoffs are not within reach, then I think you might see some pro-tank moves from GMTM.

 

Although I'm not sure what pro-tank maneuvers he has left up his sleeve.    Trading away guys like Ennis, Gorges or Gionta for picks?   Maybe move CJ while he's hot?  Packaging some roster players and prospects for an injured star player?   or young defenseman (Tyson Barrie!)?

[Eleven]

 

 

Personally, I'm still looking forward to more picks/prospects/kids for more O'Reillys.

 

NOOOOOOO

 

 

[PASabreFan]

Not a fan of the O'Reilly trade?

[Eleven]

Not a fan of the O'Reilly trade?

 

I'm a big fan of the O'Reilly trade.

 

But I believe the children are the future.

 

In other words, no ​more O'Reilly trades.

[PASabreFan]

I'm a big fan of the O'Reilly trade.

 

But I believe the children are the future.

 

In other words, no ​more O'Reilly trades.

The children are the future! We traded three decent eight-year-olds for one precocious 12-year-old.

[WildCard]

I'm a big fan of the O'Reilly trade.

 

But I believe the children are the future.

 

In other words, no ​more O'Reilly trades.

I'll always trade proven NHL talent for prospect gambles, given at least the relative merit of the NHL talent compared to the prospect's...prospects of course. If there's anything I learned from Murray so far, it's that mentality. 

[LTS]

That might be your opinion, but not his words. Listen to WGR550 audio vault from yesterday. He is disappointed at the moment and will be disappointed if they finish at 80 points. However, he  did say he will not trade for a veteran that might add 4 to 6 points in the standing if it means giving up a valued prospect. He did say he would "help" the team if he thought they were challenging for a playoff spot. He is still looking long term but still expects them to be better this season. He has never said he wants a top three pick this year but did say it would be a nice consolation prize if they didn't make the playoffs.

 

He was disappointed last year too and we all know his goal was not to make the team better in the standings.  I firmly believe he wants 9-10th and just outside the playoffs. He wants a shot at the lottery picks and knows next year is when it all begins. He can't come out and say he wants a top 3 pick, but he can absolutely say what you refer to... "It's a nice consolation prize."  

 

There's nothing he can actually say that would be along the lines of "We're not going to make the playoffs this year, it's not even our goal."

 

If we get towards end of Jan, early Feb, and playoffs are not within reach, then I think you might see some pro-tank moves from GMTM.

 

Although I'm not sure what pro-tank maneuvers he has left up his sleeve.    Trading away guys like Ennis, Gorges or Gionta for picks?   Maybe move CJ while he's hot?  Packaging some roster players and prospects for an injured star player?   or young defenseman (Tyson Barrie!)?

 

The good news is that he's in the driver seat on any moves. I don't think it's pro-tank because there wasn't a tank, there wouldn't be another one. If he moves a player he's going to get value back.