Robin Lehner injury "not short-term"

[Hoss]

6-10 weeks is less than I expected. I'm fine riding out Johnson and Ullmark. Give Ullmark another week in ROC and then see what he can do.

[LGR4GM]

Totally agree with you, there is depth on defense and skilled wingers.  I would count Bailey, Possler, Baptiste as at best 3rd line type talents.  

I would imagine that 1 of those 3 players will make it as an NHL regular.  Possler missed most of last year with a knee injury but ik Kris Baker is really high on him. 

 

We could see us send a couple of our wingers to someone for a couple of their defenders.  Murray has options still but he needs to make a very calculated and precise move.

6-10 weeks is less than I expected. I'm fine riding out Johnson and Ullmark. Give Ullmark another week in ROC and then see what he can do.

Ullmark just got to NA and is coming off of surgery, let him build confidence and rehab in the AHL for the season.

[Rasmus_]

Lieuwen is a solid call up for a back up.  He's very "Chad Johnsonesque" to me.  Ullmark definitely needs the time to work his way back.  He could easily be competing in the NHL next season as our back up/fighting for 1B role.  I've always liked him.  

[Hoss]

Ullmark just got to NA and is coming off of surgery, let him build confidence and rehab in the AHL for the season.

I don't think coming off an injury means anything. If he's playing in Rochester and being asked to make 38 saves he can do the same thing in Buffalo. There's no fear of "rushing" here because I think goalies are entirely different. They're going to get the minutes regardless of the AHL vs NHL.

[Thorny]

In 10 games Fransen will have as much love as the Mez. There is a reason he didn't sign with anyone until almost camp.

 

Guys I honestly don't want to be Debbie Downer but Murray has got to be able to have more to show on his defense than this after all the tools that were in his shed when he took over.

 

I understand your point of view, but Murray has brought in a ton of talent since he took over as GM. Yes, primarily forward talent, but that is a huge deal. He hasn't added nothing to the defense, either. Realistically, it would be completely unrealistic to expect Murray to have completely turned around every single aspect of our team from forwards, to defense, to goaltending, to coaches, in such a short time. He is only entering his second full season as GM, after all. As is, he has addressed a heck of a lot. Just look at our roster when he took over, and our roster today. Miles of difference.

 

I really do understand your concerns over the defense, and I share some of them. But to think there is no plan there or that Murray hasn't done anything, is panicking. We have a potential top 4 already that, while not stellar, looks pretty good. It might not be ready this year, but soon we could have:

 

Bogosian - Ristolainen

McCabe - Pysyk

 

That is a young, solid D core right there, in my estimation. Ristolainen is going to be a star, and while I understand that Bogosian isn't healthy right now, in past seasons, while he has missed time a fair amount, he has generally played the large majority of the games. He's still young, we can hope that he can move past the injury bug.

 

McCabe and Pysyk have shown lots of promise, no reason to think they can't develop into a solid second pairing. That could be a good top 4. We have Guhle in the pipeline too, who has shown promise. The #5 and #6 pairing will need work, but those are easier positions to fill.

 

As others have said, we have some good goalie prospects in the system. And I am not giving up on Lehner. Johnson hopefully can fill in for the 2 months Lehner is gone. And also, every year there always seems to be goalies that become available whether through trade or free agency, Murray can take steps to acquire a goalie if all else fails.

 

Things are going to be ok.

 

I wouldn't count on anything either but Ullmark has the potential to be the best goalie in our system.

 

We do have holes in the system.  Defense is one of them.  We could have used that 21st pick on a very talented defender.  It is one of the reasons I have been pushing for that trade with Florida or any other team who has a good young defender in their system.

 

Yes, we could have. But it would have just been a prospect, 2 or 3 years away. We can always select D prospects in the next draft. I agree, I wouldn't be opposed to a prospect for prospect trade with another team, forward from us for defenseman from them.

[Robviously]

I don't think coming off an injury means anything. If he's playing in Rochester and being asked to make 38 saves he can do the same thing in Buffalo. There's no fear of "rushing" here because I think goalies are entirely different. They're going to get the minutes regardless of the AHL vs NHL.

He'd be coming back from double hip surgery *and* playing in North America for the first time (smaller ice surface, different game) *and* playing against the best players in the world if we rushed him the the NHL out of desperation this month.

 

No thanks. Let him spend some time (hopefully a full season) in Rochester before we make him a Sabre. I'm fine with Johnson, Lieuwen, and/or whoever we pick up until Lehner is back.

[bob_sauve28]

That is a young, solid D core right there, in my estimation. Ristolainen is going to be a star, and while I understand that Bogosian isn't healthy right now, in past seasons, while he has missed time a fair amount, he has generally played the large majority of the games. He's still young, we can hope that he can move past the injury bug.

 

McCabe and Pysyk have shown lots of promise, no reason to think they can't develop into a solid second pairing. That could be a good top 4. We have Guhle in the pipeline too, who has shown promise. The #5 and #6 pairing will need work, but those are

 

 

them.

Kind of disappointing McCabe can't crack this line up now. Kind of makes me wonder if he ever will

[Thorny]

Kind of disappointing McCabe can't crack this line up now. Kind of makes me wonder if he ever will

 

I think he probably can. They just seem to be making a conscious effort not to rush him.

[dudacek]

I think he probably can. They just seem to be making a conscious effort not to rush him.

 

Seems to be a similar strategy they used with Pysyk last year.

I'd rather see him in the sixth spot instead of Colaiacovo or Weber or Donovan.

But at this point he's not better than the other four.

[...]

Didn't Miller come back from a high ankle sprain sooner than expected?

[PASabreFan]

Didn't Miller come back from a high ankle sprain sooner than expected?

Yeah, but he had elite recovery abilities.

[LGR4GM]

I don't think coming off an injury means anything. If he's playing in Rochester and being asked to make 38 saves he can do the same thing in Buffalo. There's no fear of "rushing" here because I think goalies are entirely different. They're going to get the minutes regardless of the AHL vs NHL.

 

 

He'd be coming back from double hip surgery *and* playing in North America for the first time (smaller ice surface, different game) *and* playing against the best players in the world if we rushed him the the NHL out of desperation this month.

 

No thanks. Let him spend some time (hopefully a full season) in Rochester before we make him a Sabre. I'm fine with Johnson, Lieuwen, and/or whoever we pick up until Lehner is back.

Yup. 

 

Also are we really ready to compare AHL shooters to NHL shooters?  There is a reason some goalies look like studs in the AHL and fail miserably in the NHL.  Ullmark needs to adapt and gain confidence and make sure he is fully healthy. 

[Hoss]

Yup.

 

Also are we really ready to compare AHL shooters to NHL shooters? There is a reason some goalies look like studs in the AHL and fail miserably in the NHL. Ullmark needs to adapt and gain confidence and make sure he is fully healthy.

And there are AHL duds that look like studs in the NHL. Nobody was comparing NHL to AHL shooters.

 

 

Also, the wording of "he can do the same thing in Buffalo" was misleading. I meant that he can play heavy minutes in Buffalo if he can do it in Rochester coming off the injury. Whether or not he can do it well is up for debate, but I think we'll find out at some point during Lehner's time off.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Hoss

[thewookie1]

The pipeline I was talking about was defense and goaltending. Sure we have forward prospects but Murray has grossly neglected the defense.

 

I deleted the post after I wrote it because i knew the response I would get. Sorry guys but if you all want to sit here and plan your Cup party because Jack Eichel is know a Sabre then you might be waiting a LONG time.

 

I feel this rebuild was grossly handled. Going back to when management decided to blow this thing up to today I don't think we remotely maximized what our return could have been.

 

Too be this far into the process and have this as your defense and goaltending should scare the hell out of you.

 

Many of you still all have the Eichel giggles. This team has gapping holes. Holes that i am not sure how Murray plans to fill them. We have bashed Edmonton for years how they had all the forwards in the world but no defense and GT'ing. You think help is coming from that never ending list of prospects that we seem to constantly be waiting on?

 

Our "rebuild plan" is much more similar to Edmonton's than it is Pitt or Chicago. Hope in another couple years many of you prove me wrong. Most likely you will be giving me another prospect list.

 

The bolded part is horse hockey, Edmonton has been at it for years trying to rebuild and while it is true they lacked D and a goalie, their largest problem wasn't that, it was their sheer lack of vets to teach the kids, and all their earlier picks were practically clones.  Reinhart doesn't match up with Eichel while RNH, Hall, Eberle, and Yakopov + Gagne are extremely similar in body type and style. The first two can play in their own zone though. Our new core has far more variety and will actually play in the defensive end. We have at least 1 vs their 0 young, high end D-men. (In comparison to the Oilers in Year 3) Did I like the Zadorov deal, not so much, but we still have Pysyk, McCabe, and Guhle. To say we are completely bare on D prospects is like saying a glass of water is empty when its still half full. 

[sicknfla]

The bolded part is horse hockey, Edmonton has been at it for years trying to rebuild and while it is true they lacked D and a goalie, their largest problem wasn't that, it was their sheer lack of vets to teach the kids, and all their earlier picks were practically clones. Reinhart doesn't match up with Eichel while RNH, Hall, Eberle, and Yakopov + Gagne are extremely similar in body type and style. The first two can play in their own zone though. Our new core has far more variety and will actually play in the defensive end. We have at least 1 vs their 0 young, high end D-men. (In comparison to the Oilers in Year 3) Did I like the Zadorov deal, not so much, but we still have Pysyk, McCabe, and Guhle. To say we are completely bare on D prospects is like saying a glass of water is empty when its still half full.

Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov, and McDavid > Eichel, ROR, Kane, Reinhart, Girgs. Find me a hockey exec to tell you otherwise.

[WildCard]

Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov, and McDavid > Eichel, ROR, Kane, Reinhart, Girgs. Find me a hockey exec to tell you otherwise.

You're completely missing or ignoring what hes saying. There's a reason they've had that core, excluding McDavid, for years and have consistently been in the cellar. 

 

Care to guess what that group of forwards did for the Oilers last year (excluding McDavid obviously)

 

2.35 goals/game, or 5th worst in the league. And it's not just last year, below is a detailed comparison of the Oilers stats from the last two seasons. Almost everything is worse, with some categories like CF% and FF% being slightly better.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/by-the-numbers-a-forensic-audit-of-another-edmonton-oilers-season-gone-off-the-rails

 

Yakupov was the last guy to join that core and hes had 3 abysmal seasons in the league. This isn't a new, or developing core. It's a failed one. If they didn't win the lottery, they would have had another disaster season, and would have been forced to ship off Yak and probably one of Hall/Eberle. I would take any one of the guys you listed over Yakupov in a heartbeat 

 

And where are Drasaitl, Nurse and Risto, Ennis on those lists?

Edited October 12, 2015 by WildCard

[Johnny DangerFace]

Who is edmontons risto, bogosian, pysyk, and McCabe? Very curious

[dudacek]

Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov, and McDavid > Eichel, ROR, Kane, Reinhart, Girgs. Find me a hockey exec to tell you otherwise.

Most would certainly take McDavid over Eichel.

RNH and Reinhart project to a similar place, but Reinhart has a lot further to go to get there.

Hall, Eberle and Yak have more skill than ROR, Kane and Girgs, but the Sabres are grittier, better all-round players.

And then there are the other players: Risto, Nurse, Pysyk, Schultz, McCabe, Draisaitl...

 

The Sabres are a few years behind, but Murray has accelerated the gap with his trades.

Will be really interesting to see where this discussion is in three years.

[Eleven]

Yeah, but he had elite recovery abilities.

 

Keep mocking the only Olympic MVP you've ever seen play live.  It's really very funny stuff.

He'd be coming back from double hip surgery *and* playing in North America for the first time (smaller ice surface, different game) *and* playing against the best players in the world if we rushed him the the NHL out of desperation this month.

 

No thanks. Let him spend some time (hopefully a full season) in Rochester before we make him a Sabre. I'm fine with Johnson, Lieuwen, and/or whoever we pick up until Lehner is back.

 

Agreed; let's not kill the kid's confidence.  That's a more important concern with the goalie than it is with the 18 skaters I mentioned upthread.

[thewookie1]

You're completely missing or ignoring what hes saying. There's a reason they've had that core, excluding McDavid, for years and have consistently been in the cellar. 

 

Care to guess what that group of forwards did for the Oilers last year (excluding McDavid obviously)

 

2.35 goals/game, or 5th worst in the league. And it's not just last year, below is a detailed comparison of the Oilers stats from the last two seasons. Almost everything is worse, with some categories like CF% and FF% being slightly better.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/by-the-numbers-a-forensic-audit-of-another-edmonton-oilers-season-gone-off-the-rails

 

Yakupov was the last guy to join that core and hes had 3 abysmal seasons in the league. This isn't a new, or developing core. It's a failed one. If they didn't win the lottery, they would have had another disaster season, and would have been forced to ship off Yak and probably one of Hall/Eberle. I would take any one of the guys you listed over Yakupov in a heartbeat 

 

And where are Drasaitl, Nurse and Risto, Ennis on those lists?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if one of their core is traded regardless. McDavid will need a bigger winger or he'll be eventually pummeled in the playoffs. He may outmaneuver his attacker 99.9% of the time, but that one that does hit could be catastrophic. For example Crosby's concussions. Drasaitl possibly could be that guy, but then they'll have quite the one dimensional second line with Yakopov-RNH-Eberle.

 

Might I trade 1 for 1 of the group, sure, but come playoff time straight up I'd take the Sabres 5 over the Oilers 5. Since our 5 are far better built for the grind of the playoffs.

 

Also, young defense wise we certainly have had a better result thus far.  Risto>Nurse  Shultz is better offensively, but less physical than Bogosian  Other comparisons would be out of my knowledge to give.   

[sicknfla]

You're completely missing or ignoring what hes saying. There's a reason they've had that core, excluding McDavid, for years and have consistently been in the cellar.

 

Care to guess what that group of forwards did for the Oilers last year (excluding McDavid obviously)

 

2.35 goals/game, or 5th worst in the league. And it's not just last year, below is a detailed comparison of the Oilers stats from the last two seasons. Almost everything is worse, with some categories like CF% and FF% being slightly better.

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/by-the-numbers-a-forensic-audit-of-another-edmonton-oilers-season-gone-off-the-rails

 

Yakupov was the last guy to join that core and hes had 3 abysmal seasons in the league. This isn't a new, or developing core. It's a failed one. If they didn't win the lottery, they would have had another disaster season, and would have been forced to ship off Yak and probably one of Hall/Eberle. I would take any one of the guys you listed over Yakupov in a heartbeat

 

And where are Drasaitl, Nurse and Risto, Ennis on those lists?

I am not ignoring anything. The Edmonton 5 are better than our 5. Do I need to go back and provide examples of what many of you were willing to give up for Hall last year when we thought he was available?

 

My point is having these forwards does not guarantee crap. Without D and GT'ing you are not going to compete.

 

I just don't know where we get the future D from. People keep saying McCabe. What makes yout think that? Average in the AHL and most likely be aveage, at best, on the NHL.

 

My point in all this is Murray has neglected defense. IMO, he used the #1 picks he gave to Winnipeg and Ottawa foolishly. Winnipeg does that deal without the #1. They wanted Kane out of town. Lehner was a complete waste. May end up being decent GT he had similar or better options for less.

 

My feeling is this will all be much more clear when he has to trade a very valuable asset in the next year or so that he didn't have to if he would have played his cards differently. Overpaying in trades will bite you in the ass. He fell in love with Kane and ROR. Getting them was going to happen......ZFG (which term i hate BTW).

[LGR4GM]

I am not ignoring anything. The Edmonton 5 are better than our 5. Do I need to go back and provide examples of what many of you were willing to give up for Hall last year when we thought he was available?

 

My point is having these forwards does not guarantee crap. Without D and GT'ing you are not going to compete.

 

I just don't know where we get the future D from. People keep saying McCabe. What makes yout think that? Average in the AHL and most likely be aveage, at best, on the NHL.

 

My point in all this is Murray has neglected defense. IMO, he used the #1 picks he gave to Winnipeg and Ottawa foolishly. Winnipeg does that deal without the #1. They wanted Kane out of town. Lehner was a complete waste. May end up being decent GT he had similar or better options for less.

 

My feeling is this will all be much more clear when he has to trade a very valuable asset in the next year or so that he didn't have to if he would have played his cards differently. Overpaying in trades will bite you in the ass. He fell in love with Kane and ROR. Getting them was going to happen......ZFG (which term i hate BTW).

I was agreeing with you up until this and then I stopped reading. You don't know and can't possible know this. You don't know if Winn wanted more or less when those negotiations started.  They traded two former top 4 picks to us. That was never going to be cheap.

 

I hate the Lehner trade still. Jacob Larsson would of looked great on our blueline.

[3putt]

Friedman reported on NHL network:  When you are drowning other gms dont throw you a life preserver they throw you an anchor. Murray does not like what is being offered and is likely to let Ulmark get a game or two in Rochester and call him up to the big club. 

[sicknfla]

I was agreeing with you up until this and then I stopped reading. You don't know and can't possible know this. You don't know if Winn wanted more or less when those negotiations started. They traded two former top 4 picks to us. That was never going to be cheap.

 

I hate the Lehner trade still. Jacob Larsson would of looked great on our blueline.

No I don't know but nobody else is making that trade to acquire an out for the season Kane. He gift wrapped the deal.

 

I compare Murray to one of stupidest shows on TV - Storage Wars. They all bid on a unit. At the end the highest bidder acts like a bad ass because the other bidders decided it was too overpiced. I think Murray is Dave Hester - YUUUUP!!

[TrueBlueGED]

No I don't know but nobody else is making that trade to acquire an out for the season Kane. He gift wrapped the deal.

 

I compare Murray to one of stupidest shows on TV - Storage Wars. They all bid on a unit. At the end the highest bidder acts like a bad ass because the other bidders decided it was too overpiced. I think Murray is Dave Hester - YUUUUP!!

 

Ya know, I wasn't going to make you pay for the tank bet you lost with me, but you've been sufficiently annoying through two games that I'm going to. Expect a PM later today with the charity of my choice to send your $50 to.