Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[wjag]

This thread should be required reading for Sociology students. Not even kidding.

 

The whole forum..  There is a great cross section of ages, personalities and belief structures.  Unfortunately, it isn't balanced M/F though.  

[shrader]

I'll wait for the process to play itself out with regard to Kane being charged with and/or guilty of anything, but just to be clear, raping a girl has nothing to do with "cheating" on your girlfriend.

That's all you took issue with in that post? apparently people in long term relationships never cheat or turn to other avenues for sex (call it whatever you will).

[Doohickie]

This thread should be required reading for Sociology students. Not even kidding.

 

You gonna eat that?

[Eleven]

That's all you took issue with in that post? apparently people in long term relationships never cheat or turn to other avenues for sex (call it whatever you will).

 

Streets?  Boulevards?

[drnkirishone]

Streets?  Boulevards?

parkways?

[Beukebamboom]

As an old guy, definitely in the grey beard category, and father of two daughters / grandfather of five beautiful girls, I'd like to make a few observations regarding this thread.

1. I read this forum almost daily because the discussions are generally well thought out, civil and far different (in a good way) than most other sports fan sites.

2. Almost every poster on this topic has correctly stated preemptively that rape is a heinous crime.

3. As best I can tell, there has been very little factual information released by the authorities about this case.

4. Some posters seem to have already formed strong opinions about what happened.

5. Ad hominem attacks of others based on differences of speculation on what may or may not have occurred have no place in an intelligent discussion.

6. I see no fault in urging young women to avoid putting themselves in risky situations; in fact I try to remind my loved ones of this often.

7. More importantly, I regularly teach my sons and grandsons to always treat women with respect and understand that no means no.

8. Rape is a violent and heinous crime.

 

We can only hope that as this case unfolds, justice will be served. In the meantime, I think that some here who have worked themselves into a lather about things others have said need to take a deep breath and wait to see what really happened.

That's my two cents. Now I'll go back to lurking.

 

I don't think Abe Lincoln could have said it better. 

[bunomatic]

Eeesh.  Gone for a weekend and this thread is filled with some good information and a lot of personal attacks.

 

I guess it's okay to make personal attacks.. in a thread that discusses a form of personal attack right?

 

A few quick things...

 

A scenario will present itself and that scenario will come with a set of potential outcomes.  Some will be more probable than the others.  Not everyone will be able to think of the same possible outcomes nor will they likely think of the same probably outcomes.  To presume that everyone operates from the same form of decision making and information processing capabilities is ignorant and irresponsible.  Proof? If we all did then we'd all think like Patrick Kane.. (do you think like Patrick Kane?)

 

There needs to be the ability to allow for possibilities in what could have transpired without it being a referendum on the person in question.  Anecdotal stories have merit because they prove that an outcome is possible, even if it is not probable.

 

It's not inconceivable to me that in the realm of human behavior that a woman could decide that she wants to try and lure Patrick Kane into having sex with her with the intention of then filing a rape charge with the hopes of the charge resulting in some kind of million dollar settlement.  If I were listing my top X of possible scenarios this probably doesn't make it into the list, but the news is rife with discussions on the despicable things humans will do.

 

That said, even if that were to happen, once, anywhere, at anytime, that does not mean that this particular woman, in this particular scenario should be accused, specifically, of having done that.  There should be the ability for a discussion that allows the scenario to exist without also simultaneously casting judgment on the specific people involved.  It's a fine line, there's no doubt.  It's almost like making a Law & Order episode if you will. Based on actual events but twisted to sound more dramatic and twisted.

 

Here's the simple bottom line that I am hoping we all adhere to.

 

Non-consensual sex is wrong. Period. There are no mitigating factors.

 

However, we don't know that there was non-consensual sex.  We know that someone has made an accusation that sex occurred and they did not consent to it. That is what we know about this particular case right?

 

Hopefully my points come across and are not totally disjointed.  It's not easy to spend over an hour reading this thread, at work (during lunch and then some I guess), while constantly waivering back and forth between I should say this or I should not say that or I should comment or I should not.

 

It's an important discussion, but with regards to the exact scenario this thread originally covered all we have is patience to learn what has or has not happened.  The philosophical discussion pieces are great mental exercises but being tied to this thread add a level of volatility that hampers the discussion. 

Wow. Finally some sanity. Good post. Too many people feigning moral outrage at one or two posters suggestions that sometimes in life things are not cut and dry or black and white. Nobody deserves to be raped. No matter their personality or constitution.  And I would hope nobody deserves to be convicted of a rape that wasn't committed. Maybe one was ? Maybe one wasn't. Hopefully the authorities get it all figured out. Until then as you said, we need cooler heads and patience.

[beerme1]

That's all you took issue with in that post? apparently people in long term relationships never cheat or turn to other avenues for sex (call it whatever you will).

 

 

Streets?  Boulevards?

 

 

parkways?

 

 

Hey elitists. Viaducts for the 99%ers.

[That Aud Smell]

Hell yeah for Park Meadow showing up and laying it on us, f'real.

 

Now. Let's not get eaten by a polar bear.

[LTS]

To the bold: nobody should ever have to expect to be raped in this world. Obviously if you got on family watch dog and start knocking on those doors after midnight then MAYBE.

I can understand the arguments about a potential expectation of sex, but an exectation of rape? Never. I suspect that you meant an expectation is sex, right?

 

To the second part: I never would've randomly conjured a thought that Kane could be a rapist, but if you were to ask me which NHL players may be most likely he would be near the top considering past actions (none of which even compare to rape but are much more than most NHLers). But, as d1msabre (jk :P) pointed out, I have no clue what type of individual he is in person or when he is attracted to somebody/drunk.

 

One thing that's also not been said as far as I can see: is it crazy to think she may have had no idea about Kane's past actions? Who knows whether she is a sports/hockey fan or aware that Kane has a history of drunken stupidity.

 

Let's see if I can get this right so it stays coherent.   You bolded my original statement: "What is wrong to assign to her some level of expectation to be raped as a result of making that decision."

 

The way that phrase should read is.... "It is absolutely wrong to assign her some level of expectation to be raped as a result of making that decision".  Wow.. I know what I meant when I typed the original statement but in reading back your quote of it I was wondering why you altered what I wrote and then realized... no, I just phrased that very poorly.

 

Granted, I would have used a question mark if I were asking the question, but that aside.  I am glad I had a moment to restate what I was getting at there.

 

I don't think anyone would have realistically believed he would be investigated for rape.  That's my point.  Why should this woman expect it, if no one expected it up to this point? 

[PASabreFan]

Wow. Finally some sanity. Good post. Too many people feigning moral outrage at one or two posters suggestions that sometimes in life things are not cut and dry or black and white. Nobody deserves to be raped. No matter their personality or constitution.  And I would hope nobody deserves to be convicted of a rape that wasn't committed. Maybe one was ? Maybe one wasn't. Hopefully the authorities get it all figured out. Until then as you said, we need cooler heads and patience.

I've had my issues with nobody, namely the empty, soul-less black hole of an avatar, but, wow, what a terrible fate you have in mind for him.

[Hoss]

Let's see if I can get this right so it stays coherent.   You bolded my original statement: "What is wrong to assign to her some level of expectation to be raped as a result of making that decision."

 

The way that phrase should read is.... "It is absolutely wrong to assign her some level of expectation to be raped as a result of making that decision".  Wow.. I know what I meant when I typed the original statement but in reading back your quote of it I was wondering why you altered what I wrote and then realized... no, I just phrased that very poorly.

 

Granted, I would have used a question mark if I were asking the question, but that aside.  I am glad I had a moment to restate what I was getting at there.

 

I don't think anyone would have realistically believed he would be investigated for rape.  That's my point.  Why should this woman expect it, if no one expected it up to this point? 

Ah. I'm glad I didn't pounce and correctly assumed it was just a wording issue. I agree completely. And I agree with the point you're making. Carry on.

[Beukebamboom]

Ah. I'm glad I didn't pounce and correctly assumed it was just a wording issue. I agree completely. And I agree with the point you're making. Carry on.

 

It's like you stopped him in the street, frisked him, got all upset about a bulge in his pocket, realized it was just his car keys, and let him go on his way.

 

Where's your badge, man?  ;)

[bunomatic]

I've had my issues with nobody, namely the empty, soul-less black hole of an avatar, but, wow, what a terrible fate you have in mind for him.

Now I feel terrible for nobody. Sorry :(

[drnkirishone]

Now I feel terrible for nobody. Sorry :(

pif i heard Nobody was asking for it. he was walking down the street with diet shasta orange. you do that you have to expect for something to happen

[Huckleberry]

As an old guy, definitely in the grey beard category, and father of two daughters / grandfather of five beautiful girls, I'd like to make a few observations regarding this thread.

1. I read this forum almost daily because the discussions are generally well thought out, civil and far different (in a good way) than most other sports fan sites.

2. Almost every poster on this topic has correctly stated preemptively that rape is a heinous crime.

3. As best I can tell, there has been very little factual information released by the authorities about this case.

4. Some posters seem to have already formed strong opinions about what happened.

5. Ad hominem attacks of others based on differences of speculation on what may or may not have occurred have no place in an intelligent discussion.

6. I see no fault in urging young women to avoid putting themselves in risky situations; in fact I try to remind my loved ones of this often.

7. More importantly, I regularly teach my sons and grandsons to always treat women with respect and understand that no means no.

8. Rape is a violent and heinous crime.

 

We can only hope that as this case unfolds, justice will be served. In the meantime, I think that some here who have worked themselves into a lather about things others have said need to take a deep breath and wait to see what really happened.

That's my two cents. Now I'll go back to lurking.

 

This

[Fidelio]

Good morning. To break the ice,

Here is some unrelated but awesome media.

RIP Jet Li's Movie career.

[LTS]

Ah. I'm glad I didn't pounce and correctly assumed it was just a wording issue. I agree completely. And I agree with the point you're making. Carry on.

 

And that's how it should be... it happened earlier in the thread (I forget who).  The statement basically was.  "Wait.. I want to make sure I am understanding what you said, this is how I read that... is that correct?"

 

It's seeking to understand and it's far more productive than what normally happens.

[shrader]

Streets?  Boulevards?

 

 

parkways?

 

The one I live on feels oddly appropriate here: Court

[X. Benedict]

Wrestling with this issue. (And by no means do I mean to diminish anyone's perspective here.)

 

Rape is an awful crime, but I am somewhat disturbed with its pedestal at the moment.

 

I know someone raped and murdered.

The murder half seems the harder part.

[Sabel79]

Wrestling with this issue. (And by no means do I mean to diminish anyone's perspective here.)

Rape is an awful crime, but I am somewhat disturbed with its pedestal at the moment.

I know someone raped and murdered.

The murder half seems the harder part.

Rarely are women told that they have somehow invited or deserve to be murdered, or failed to act in a manner that would prevent their own victimization. As if it mitigates the responsibility of the individual actually doing the violent and dehumanizing act.

 

Can't really say the same about rape.

[pastajoe]

Rarely are women told that they have somehow invited or deserve to be murdered, or failed to act in a manner that would prevent their own victimization. As if it mitigates the responsibility of the individual actually doing the violent and dehumanizing act.

 

Can't really say the same about rape.

Murder is black and white. Rape is sometimes a grey area of he said she said, where it's sometimes difficult to know who to believe if and when the line was crossed from sex to rape. I'm not justifying rape, just the reason why it's not as clear as murder.

[qwksndmonster]

The whole forum..  There is a great cross section of ages, personalities and belief structures.  Unfortunately, it isn't balanced M/F though.  

Very little of the internet is  :mellow:

 

Reddit is a nightmare.

[MattPie]

Murder is black and white. Rape is sometimes a grey area of he said she said, where it's sometimes difficult to know who to believe if and when the line was crossed from sex to rape. I'm not justifying rape, just the reason why it's not as clear as murder.

 

While the grey area *may* be part of it, I think it speaks more to the Puritanical streak in American society than anything. There's a population of folks that think "If you act proper and "ladylike", it's not going to happen to you."

 

The murder parallel is an interesting one, but I think someone beat me to making the point. If I walk down Busti Ave (is that still a rough part of town?) and get shot, some people will say "that was a stupid thing to do" but very few are going so say "he had it coming, why else would he be walking down that street?" or "What else was the shooter supposed to do?". But some people say those things about rape regularly.

[Sabel79]

Murder is black and white. Rape is sometimes a grey area of he said she said, where it's sometimes difficult to know who to believe if and when the line was crossed from sex to rape. I'm not justifying rape, just the reason why it's not as clear as murder.

In the sense that someone is either dead or not you're entirely correct. Both have many prosecutorial hurdles to clear. The dead can not testify as to what happened, whereas rape victims can. The dead do not have to (be alive while) they are disparaged, demeaned, re-live the incident ad infinitum, (be alive while) their families hear the sordid details of their past put on display as of it were dispositive in the present instance.

 

I admit that it is, of course, possible that a false accusation can be made. Make no mistake, however that history / current societal norms tells us that rape / sexual assault is a problem. A large problem. An underestimated problem by wide swaths of the populace. Men and women. No crime can be more heinous than the destruction of the control over one's body by another. Leaving them alive to deal with it afterwards is no positive in the long view, and should be punished no less severely. Which is exactly why rape is "on a pedestal"