GDT: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Buffalo Sabres, 11/13/21 —7 pm MSG and WGR

[Curt]

45 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Woo. Thank god for that. The fact remains we have ***** goaltending . To be fair Anderson has been pretty good as our #1 when he’s been available. Toker has been ok in a backup roll. But KA could have done better to shore up the net. Like the rest of Buffalo Sabres hockey our goaltending has been average at best. Maybe thats the most we should expect as Sabres fans.

If you are going to make things up to support your argument, I’m going to point out that they are false.

It’s ok, you can pretend after the fact that it doesn’t matter whether or not they are true if you’d like.

There are plenty of true things to complain about.  None of us should need to complain about imaginary things.

[Zamboni]

9 minutes ago, Curt said:

If you are going to make things up to support your argument, I’m going to point out that they are false.

It’s ok, you can pretend after the fact that it doesn’t matter whether or not they are true if you’d like.

There are plenty of true things to complain about.  None of us should need to complain about imaginary things.

Very true… And yet, that doesn’t stop a lot of fans from complaining about imaginary things with the teams that they follow. 😂

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

And you are looking at this completely backwards.  The point @LGR4GM is making is that the STHers have paid the going rate for tickets and at an ADVERTISED "significant savings off box office prices" (the quote is directly from the website).  They can't just cut ticket prices arbitrarily.  They also expect to collect revenue sharing from their league partners.  There are conditions on their collecting that money, one of which is they don't arbitrarily cut prices.

Totally get your point that having 4,000 people in a barn that holds 18,000 is a huge problem.  But due to contracts with others, they can't simply give away seats for $10 and hope to make it up on jacked up beer prices.  As Adams said, they need to rebuild trust w/ the fans. 

They're doing a lot of things right w/ the in game experience.  They have live bands playing in the intermissions.  The music they play during breaks is oftentimes selected by the fans & actually doesn't stink.  They've let the individual players choose their own goal song.  They have people exit the building after a W to Buffalo's own Rick James.  So, they are trying.

They still have to work on their POS systems because they are interminably slow and are completely cashless so you can't even try to speed it up by having cash ready to drop on the counter.

There's nothing they can do about having the border issue be a huge hassle for 1/2 the fanbase (though they likely could add a rapid test station somewhere in or near the building to make it easier to get back into Canada after the game) but if they keep playing well at home attendance will pick up after the Bills season is done - that's how it always worked prior to the long sellout streak.

Your extended response wasn't required to address the main point that I was making. I'm well aware of the impact of the covid border issue and I'm aware of the discount ticket issue on attendance. But that wasn't the primary issue. The issue is the dramatic drop in attendance even factoring in the other stressing issues. 

There were approximately 4000 people in an 18,000 plus seat arena. That means for every four seats three and more seats were empty. You don't think that is a concern? This was a weekend night game against our main rivalry. The paid attendance was 7942. Of those who paid for a ticket nearly half of them didn't bother to show up. You don't think that is a troubling issue?  

Detroit is a border town like Buffalo. And its team has been down like Buffalo has. Both teams now appear to be on an upswing. Detroit's average attendance is 16,469 while Buffalo's is 7921. You don't find the local market's lack of interest in this team something to worry about? Well I do. If you review the below link and look at the attendance numbers you will see how dismal the attendance situation is for Buffalo compared to the rest of the league.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by JohnC

[LabattBlue]

11 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Your extended response wasn't required to address the main point that I was making. I'm well aware of the impact of the covid border issue and I'm aware of the discount ticket issue on attendance. But that wasn't the primary issue. The issue is the dramatic drop in attendance even factoring in the other stressing issues. 

There were approximately 4000 people in an 18,000 plus seat arena. That means for every four seats three and more seats were empty. You don't think that is a concern? This was a weekend night game against our main rivalry. The paid attendance was 7942. Of those who paid for a ticket nearly half of them didn't bother to show up. You don't think that is a troubling issue?  

Detroit is a border town like Buffalo. And its team has been down like Buffalo has. Both teams now appear to be on an upswing. Detroit's average attendance is 16,469 while Buffalo's is 7921. You don't find the local market's lack of interest in this team something to worry about? Well I do. If you review the below link and look at the attendance numbers you will see how dismal the attendance situation is for Buffalo compared to the rest of the league.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

Holy cow!   I’ve been saying for two years now that the STH count will drop dramatically, and box office prices will prevent any significant walk up crowd.  The Pegula’s have ruined this franchise over the last decade, and yet you want you to sh*t all over the fans?   You are barking up the wrong tree. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Your extended response wasn't required to address the main point that I was making. I'm well aware of the impact of the covid border issue and I'm aware of the discount ticket issue on attendance. But that wasn't the primary issue. The issue is the dramatic drop in attendance even factoring in the other stressing issues. 

There were approximately 4000 people in an 18,000 plus seat arena. That means for every four seats three and more seats were empty. You don't think that is a concern? This was a weekend night game against our main rivalry. The paid attendance was 7942. Of those who paid for a ticket nearly half of them didn't bother to show up. You don't think that is a troubling issue?  

Detroit is a border town like Buffalo. And its team has been down like Buffalo has. Both teams now appear to be on an upswing. Detroit's average attendance is 16,469 while Buffalo's is 7921. You don't find the local market's lack of interest in this team something to worry about? Well I do. If you review the below link and look at the attendance numbers you will see how dismal the attendance situation is for Buffalo.  

 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

Yes, the post you quoted clearly stated there are no issues w/ attendance as evidenced by the statement "(t)otally get your point that having 4,000 people in a barn that holds 18,000 is a huge problem."  😕  

As for comparing Detroit & Buffalo, yes, they are both border cities.  That is true.  But might some of the extra attendance in Detroit be due to having a greater metro population of nearly 3x that of Buffalo?  (1.2MM vs 3.5MM)

And, really don't need you nor ESPN to tell me attendance is poor.  Have been to 4 games so far.  Have actually seen the attendance issue 1st hand.

And none of this addresses the point of the post you were referring to, that your prescription to cure the poor attendance is untenable as had already been pointed out.

[jsb]

2 hours ago, bunomatic said:

How is it wasting picks or assets when goaltending is likely the most important gap to fill when building a team? We traded away most of our high end guys and KA refused to bring in a goaltender. He brought a guy out of retirement. 

I'm a bit confused by your what appears to be stance that we could be winning at a higher pace than what we already are. This from the beginning was a rebuild year and by most pundits we were the least talented team in the league. At best most were hoping Adams and Granato were going to make this a more entertaining one to watch not some playoff contender. Are you not entertained at the very least.

 

[Broken Ankles]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

It might be how it goes, but I think you keep Skinner with the players he is producing with. We have a good potential line coming off injury over the next 6 weeks (hopefully) in Olofsson, Mitts and Tuch. 

This.  Skinner is streaky.   Don’t mess with his mojo, unless it demands a change.  VO has proven he can with score with anyone.  And Olofsson will get plenty of scoring opportunities on the PP when he returns.  I like the construct of the line with Mitts and Tuch. 

[woods-racer]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Skinner IS playing better, but he's still Skinner.  For all the criticism Miller & the other D took for the late turnover, that puck was right on Skinner's stick.  Any other winger would've won that board battle & gotten the puck out of the zone.

It'll be interesting to see where Skinner ends up when Olofsson comes back.  People seem to be forgetting that Olofsson was the team's leading scorer when "that 70's line" was intact.  Expecting that Olofsson will go back there & if Mittelstadt's wrist ever heals that Skinner will be back w/ him.

That at best was an ill advised pass to a double teamed Skinner at the half wall. So much smarter to just keep it down low for 15 seconds, Miller panicked. It was about as much Skinner's fault as it was Dells' for the shooter hitting the cross bar and having momentum carrying it in.

[bunomatic]

1 hour ago, jsb said:

I'm a bit confused by your what appears to be stance that we could be winning at a higher pace than what we already are. This from the beginning was a rebuild year and by most pundits we were the least talented team in the league. At best most were hoping Adams and Granato were going to make this a more entertaining one to watch not some playoff contender. Are you not entertained at the very least.

 

This is the most entertained I’ve been in a decade. Half the team are jags so you take what you get. I just feel the one position on the team where you can really help reward the hard work and comittment is with decent goaltending. I’m not saying go off of the plan but we’ve seen that even with what the pundits are saying is the worst team in the league we are capable of stringing some wins together. With decent goaltending who knows ? Last night was like a gutpunch with 11 seconds to go. I suppose if the idea is to lose but collect draft capital then we’re doing fine. But I believe the goal should be to always win. Every game. Otherwise as others have said this is nothing more than a tank. 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

The problem that is worrisome isn't having Leaf fans in the building as it is having an embarrassing low number of fans in the building for a rivalry game. The announced attendance was 7942. Just estimating but it is not unfair to deduct between 1000-2000 people who actually attended the game. And if you deduct maybe another 1000 of Toronto fans who crossed the border you are looking at a disturbing low number of Sabre fans who attended the game.

It's acknowledged that the Sabres are in the midst of a rebuild and realistically are not a playoff team. But this is a team that consistently plays hard and is entertaining. This is a team that the fans should have no trouble getting behind. Considering how this franchise has functioned over this past Pegula decade I don't expect capacity crowds. No question the fan base has been demoralized and reduced .However, when you repeatedly witness games when close to 2/3 of the seats are empty then that is disturbing. 

I wrongly thought this was a game in which there would have been a bump up in attendance. I was wrong. 

It's going to take a while.

As much as I'm starting to "believe" in them, 14 games is a small sample size at the best of times, never mind when compared relative to a decade stretch of futility. A stretch that did have segments of gameplay where we won more than we have, to start this season, too. 

It's just going to take a while for the majority to come around, and you can't blame them. Especially the ones not delving into the prospects we of course all like to take a glass half-full view on at all times (lately they've just looked objectively good, a lot of them, so there is that) 

[bunomatic]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

If you are going to make things up to support your argument, I’m going to point out that they are false.

It’s ok, you can pretend after the fact that it doesn’t matter whether or not they are true if you’d like.

There are plenty of true things to complain about.  None of us should need to complain about imaginary things.

Tell you what Curt. You do you. We’re still paying Hodgson are we not? Maybe I’m wrong. And I wasn’t sure on Moulson. So if thats imaginary in your eyes, thats fine. I basically admitted I wasn’t sure in the post. 

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, bunomatic said:

How is it wasting picks or assets when goaltending is likely the most important gap to fill when building a team? We traded away most of our high end guys and KA refused to bring in a goaltender. He brought a guy out of retirement. 

It's not so much that KA needed to sign Ullmark, it's that there isn't ever an excuse to not have a better back up plan. 

If the intention was for the goalies to be of this quality, for reasons we aren't aware of, that could change things. Can only assess it from the point of view of what I'd like to see from the position, though. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Thorny

[woods-racer]

2 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

This is the most entertained I’ve been in a decade. Half the team are jags so you take what you get. I just feel the one position on the team where you can really help reward the hard work and comittment is with decent goaltending. I’m not saying go off of the plan but we’ve seen that even with what the pundits are saying is the worst team in the league we are capable of stringing some wins together. With decent goaltending who knows ? Last night was like a gutpunch with 11 seconds to go. I suppose if the idea is to lose but collect draft capital then we’re doing fine. But I believe the goal should be to always win. Every game. Otherwise as others have said this is nothing more than a tank. 

This where you and I differ.

I believe not sacrificing long team gain for short term hope is not tanking. The price of a true #1 goalie would be a large amount of picks and prospects for a team that is still rebuilding. Gain us a few more wins, no doubt. Long term success? Highly suspect.

If there was a middling NHL goal tender available for very little cost, then absolutely bring him in. As it stood over the summer no one like that was voluntarily coming to Buffalo. Now? Winning helps a lot of things so.....

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

It's not so much that KA needed to sign Ullmark, it's that there isn't every excuse to not have a better back up plan. 

Don’t get me wrong, because I’ve been banging the goalie drum too, but so far Adams has been winning his bet.

No NHL team enters the season thinking they have three capable NHL goalies. Adams bet he could find two from Tokarski UPL Dell and Anderson. So far he has.

Now I remain skeptical the Toker/Andy combo will keep this up.

But any team losing their #1 for an extended period will be nervous. As long as the 1st 2 hold up, I’m not going to be too hard on him for his #3. Lots of teams have a Dell/UPL combo as their depth.

[bunomatic]

2 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

This where you and I differ.

I believe not sacrificing long team gain for short term hope is not tanking. The price of a true #1 goalie would be a large amount of picks and prospects for a team that is still rebuilding. Gain us a few more wins, no doubt. Long term success? Highly suspect.

If there was a middling NHL goal tender available for very little cost, then absolutely bring him in. As it stood over the summer no one like that was voluntarily coming to Buffalo. Now? Winning helps a lot of things so.....

I get what you’re saying. Its harder than it appears to have decent goaltending. But if your priorities are to collect high draft picks then having decent goalies can fall by the wayside. And results like last night are accepted. So losing is accepted. Thats always been hard for me to accept. Well, except during the tank. I supported it. And I got what I deserved. This kind of feels like that. Except I see promise in the farm. But I’d rather win. Even with a ***** roster. I think meatballs wants to win too. A decent goalie could help in that regard. Anyways I’m getting off the soapbox. This is tiring.

[Curt]

13 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Tell you what Curt. You do you. We’re still paying Hodgson are we not? Maybe I’m wrong. And I wasn’t sure on Moulson. So if thats imaginary in your eyes, thats fine. I basically admitted I wasn’t sure in the post. 

That’s all fine.

I responded to your original post with a simple statement of two facts.  No attitude.

I perceived your response to that as extremely dismissive.  As if it was irrelevant whether the things you were saying were true or not.

So, I elaborated on why I thought it mattered, maybe with a little too much attitude.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Don’t get me wrong, because I’ve been banging the goalie drum too, but so far Adams has been winning his bet.

No NHL team enters the season thinking they have three capable NHL goalies. Adams bet he could find two from Tokarski UPL Dell and Anderson. So far he has.

Now I remain skeptical the Toker/Andy combo will keep this up.

But any team losing their #1 for an extended period will be nervous. As long as the 1st 2 hold up, I’m not going to be too hard on him for his #3. Lots of teams have a Dell/UPL combo as their depth.

Ya I guess I'm arguing from the point of view of not expecting what we've seen to continue. Taro pointed it out with Anderson re: health. Any team would would be nervous losing their starter, of course, but they still chose a starter likely to get hurt. 

It's not a hindsight thing either - the durability concerns were indeed something people were talking about in advance. If he comes back and maintains his health and play, of course that'll change things for me. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It's going to take a while.

As much as I'm starting to "believe" in them, 14 games is a small sample size at the best of times, never mind when compared relative to a decade stretch of futility. A stretch that did have segments of gameplay where we won more than we have, to start this season, too. 

It's just going to take a while for the majority to come around, and you can't blame them. Especially the ones not delving into the prospects we of course all like to take a glass half-full view on at all times (lately they've just looked objectively good, a lot of them, so there is that) 

I am one of the optimistic members who believe that the prospects for this team in the not very distant future is positive. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 to 6 young players in the system move up the ranks to accelerate the rebuilding of the roster. And what I also am encouraged about that although this roster is incomplete it consistently plays hard and overall I the team is entertaining to watch. I'm not overrating the quality of this roster or having a blind eye toward its deficiencies. I'm comfortable at where this team is at. 

However, what I do find disturbing is that although the announced attendance average is 7921 the actual attendance average hovers around 4000 in the arena. That's a concern, at least to me. Last night, while watching the game against the team's main rival played on a weekend night in arena where more than three out of four seats were empty. I find that to be very sad as to how low in fan interest this franchise has sunk. 

[Zamboni]

53 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I am one of the optimistic members who believe that the prospects for this team in the not very distant future is positive. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 to 6 young players in the system move up the ranks to accelerate the rebuilding of the roster. And what I also am encouraged about that although this roster is incomplete it consistently plays hard and overall I the team is entertaining to watch. I'm not overrating the quality of this roster or having a blind eye toward its deficiencies. I'm comfortable at where this team is at. 

However, what I do find disturbing is that although the announced attendance average is 7921 the actual attendance average hovers around 4000 in the arena. That's a concern, at least to me. Last night, while watching the game against the team's main rival played on a weekend night in arena where more than three out of four seats were empty. I find that to be very sad as to how low in fan interest this franchise has sunk. 

In your guesstimation, What percentage of the empty seats were:

1. People who had tickets but couldn’t make the game like family plans/emergencies/unexpected situations.

2. People who don’t want to be out and around in crowds. Nervous about the potential exposure to Covid.

3. People who aren’t vax’ed, therefore can’t attend.

4. People who are vax’ed but don’t want to share that private info with anyone but their family and personal doctors. So therefore can’t get in.

5. People who think the team as currently constructed sucks, and therefore won’t spend a dime on the Sabres.

6. Canadian citizens who don’t want to spend the $100 on a Covid test to and from, and the hassle to cross the border to see the Sabres.

7. Financial hardship for various reasons in the last almost 2 years.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Zamboni

[Doohickie]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think last night was the first they’ve showed legitimate chemistry.

Nope. There was the earlier feed from behind the net from Skinner to Tage a few games ago.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[Drag0nDan]

9 hours ago, JohnC said:

Whether at full price or discounted prices the attendance numbers are paltry. The Sabres have to be at the bottom or near bottom for attendance. And it is basic economics and business realism that a $10 ticket sold for a fan who is buying food and drink stuff at the concession stand is better business than having an empty and silent seat. The basic economic rule of supply/demand for ticket pricing is a fact of life. 

I guess? If all your season ticket holders are brokers then if/when the team is good, you lose out on money you could make with flex pricing, and the brokers make all the profit. 

They went to a flex pricing model instead of giving seats away. And I'm certain Delaware north makes a good chunk of the concessions.

[JohnC]

37 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

In your guesstimation, What percentage of the empty seats were:

1. People who had tickets but couldn’t make the game like family plans/emergencies/unexpected situations.

2. People who don’t want to be out and around in crowds. Nervous about the potential exposure to Covid.

3. People who aren’t vax’ed, therefore can’t attend.

4. People who are vax’ed but don’t want to share that private info with anyone but their family and personal doctors. So therefore can’t get in.

5. People who think the team as currently constructed sucks, and therefore won’t spend a dime on the Sabres.

6. Canadian citizens who don’t want to spend the $100 on a Covid test to and from, and the hassle to cross the border to see the Sabres.

7. Financial hardship for various reasons in the last almost 2 years.

The situation that Buffalo is facing with Covid is similar to what Detroit is facing in that they are both border towns and their teams have had a recent history of non-success but now are in my opinion are on an upward trajectory. 

You can review the attendance figures for yourself for all the franchises. The average paid attendance for Detroit is 16469. The average paid attendance for Buffalo is 7921. The actual number of people in attendance is in the range of 4000 plus.  Nearly half the people who have paid for their tickets are not showing up. The local attendance figures are starkly bad. That's a fact. 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by JohnC

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, bunomatic said:

Could the lack of people in the seats be related to the fact that we had to trade with the islanders for a player that doesn’t play anymore to stay above the cap floor ? Its pathetic. Sure the game is exciting for us we’re Sabres fans. Granato has them playing an exciting style and they work hard every night but the owners are skinflints that  aren’t even willing to ice a team at or equal to the salary cap of the teams they are playing. We’re the dollar store equivalent to our opponents on most nights. That and they’ve burned us before and theres an apathy from ten years of running this team and the fans into the ground. Call it karma for historically bad ownership. This has to be part of the conversation when you ask why the empty seats.

Spending to the cap this year would be foolish. 

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The situation that Buffalo is facing with Covid is similar to what Detroit is facing in that they are both border towns and their teams have had a recent history of non-success but now are in my opinion are on an upward trajectory. 

You can review the attendance figures for yourself for all the franchises. The average paid attendance for Detroit is 16469. The average paid attendance for Buffalo is 7921. The actual number of people in attendance is in the range of 4000 plus.  Nearly half the people who have paid for their tickets are not showing up. The local attendance figures are starkly bad. That's a fact. 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

I'm not sure where you get that 4000 ppl number

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The situation that Buffalo is facing with Covid is similar to what Detroit is facing in that they are both border towns and their teams have had a recent history of non-success but now are in my opinion are on an upward trajectory. 

You can review the attendance figures for yourself for all the franchises. The average paid attendance for Detroit is 16469. The average paid attendance for Buffalo is 7921. The actual number of people in attendance is in the range of 4000 plus.  Nearly half the people who have paid for their tickets are not showing up. The local attendance figures are starkly bad. That's a fact. 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

 

And again, Detroit isn't as precise an analog to Buffalo as you keep insisting it is.  The greater Detroit metropolitan area population is a smidge over 3.5MM people.  The greater Buffalo metropolitan population is ~1.2MM.  Might Buffalo be expected to double their attendance if they had 3x the population?

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Spending to the cap this year would be foolish. 

I'm not sure where you get that 4000 ppl number

The 4,000 is off reports of people such as yours truly that have been eyeballing the attendance.  It's ball park.  But there is no way in Hades that they've significantly topped 5,000 in any of the Habs, Yotes, Bolts, or Eulers games.  Can't speak to the other 3 but would be surprised if any were significantly different based on the crowd visible in the various shots.