GDT: Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Buffalo Sabres, 11/13/21 —7 pm MSG and WGR

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And again, Detroit isn't as precise an analog to Buffalo as you keep insisting it is.  The greater Detroit metropolitan area population is a smidge over 3.5MM people.  The greater Buffalo metropolitan population is ~1.2MM.  Might Buffalo be expected to double their attendance if they had 3x the population?

I agree that it isn't a precise analogy. But the difference is still stark. Attendance-wise we are last by far. The attendance numbers are starkly bad. 

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

I'm not sure where you get that 4000 ppl number

Taro was in the arena. Check with him. I have watched most of the home games on TV. What he believes are the attendance figures and a number of people who cover the team have similarly stated that there are maybe 4000 plus fans at the games. There is no need to be precise in recognizing that there are few people who are attending the games. We are last in attendance in the league by far. That's a fact. 

[nucci]

9 hours ago, woods-racer said:

At this stage in their young careers I would have to say yes. They know they could have won, which is a far cry from last season.

what about the veterans on the team?

[Taro T]

Just now, JohnC said:

I agree that it isn't a precise analogy. But the difference is still stark. Attendance-wise we are last by far. The attendance numbers are starkly bad. 

They are.  Nobody is disputing that.

They actually are trying to improve the things they can.  Which was the point of proving examples of things that are finally being done well & some others that are still works in progress about the game day experience.

Having not decided to go for another retool would've helped in the ST.  Hopefully that decision works out, but there are still a lot of decisions to be made moving forward & a lot of players still need to be developed properly in order for it to work out.

As much as people dislike ownership & in spite of the influence their hiring decisions have had on reaching this point, were they not as deep pocketed as they are we could be at risk of losing the team.   Really doubt that's even a contingency thought.  The decisions that got us here are in the past.  They need to be better moving forward.  And really, getting people back in the barn is dependent on 1 thing primarily & 1 other 2ndarily: Adams has to be good at this - he might be, jury's still out & Canadians need to be able to get in on a regular basis w/out jumping through tons of hoops.  Remember, there are already a few thousand people that have paid at least 50% of next year's ST packages.  Without any changes, attendance reaches non-embarrassing levels.  Keep playing entertaining hockey at home & it'l get goosed more..

My 2 cents.

[SwampD]

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Taro was in the arena. Check with him. I have watched most of the home games on TV. What he believes are the attendance figures and a number of people who cover the team have similarly stated that there are maybe 4000 plus fans at the games. There is no need to be precise in recognizing that there are few people who are attending the games. We are last in attendance in the league by far. That's a fact. 

Do you go to games?

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

They are.  Nobody is disputing that.

They actually are trying to improve the things they can.  Which was the point of proving examples of things that are finally being done well & some others that are still works in progress about the game day experience.

Having not decided to go for another retool would've helped in the ST.  Hopefully that decision works out, but there are still a lot of decisions to be made moving forward & a lot of players still need to be developed properly in order for it to work out.

As much as people dislike ownership & in spite of the influence their hiring decisions have had on reaching this point, were they not as deep pocketed as they are we could be at risk of losing the team.   Really doubt that's even a contingency thought.  The decisions that got us here are in the past.  They need to be better moving forward.  And really, getting people back in the barn is dependent on 1 thing primarily & 1 other 2ndarily: Adams has to be good at this - he might be, jury's still out & Canadians need to be able to get in on a regular basis w/out jumping through tons of hoops.  Remember, there are already a few thousand people that have paid at least 50% of next year's ST packages.  Without any changes, attendance reaches non-embarrassing levels.  Keep playing entertaining hockey at home & it'l get goosed more..

My 2 cents.

As I have stated to @Thorny and others I'm not anti-owners or even hostile to this new regime. It's universally agreed that the Pegulas have made a lot of mistakes that have kept this franchise stuck in the muck of mediocrity. However just as it took them a while to get things straightened out with the Bills I believe they have finally taken the right course of action for the Sabres. I'm very much an optimist that in the near future this franchise will be a success with the fans returning to the arena.

There was a lot of skepticism (including me) when the Peguas hired KA to take over the operation. In my opinion KA has during his short tenure has done a more than commendable job. His hires in the front office and staff have been excellent. He made the right decision in replacing Krueger with Granato, and then hiring him on a permanent basis. By most accounts the drafting has been much better under him. The system is not necessarily loaded but it has a group of high end prospects who should be ready next year, if not sooner. 

My primary point in my recent posts is that the attendance even under the unique environment of covid is horribly bad. I'm not blaming the fans. But the reality is that the attendance figures are horrible. They are by far the worst in the league.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Do you go to games?

I'm out of town. I watch most of the games on TV. 

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm out of town. I watch most of the games on TV. 

I'm glad to hear that.

I will make no judgement on the attendance of home Sabres game. Whatever it is, they've earned it.

 

[woods-racer]

24 minutes ago, nucci said:

what about the veterans on the team?

They bought in. They are playing some of their best hockey. They smile. They laugh. They love the game again. They lost last night and feel they should have won. They have to feel young again, no?

[SDS]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

And again, Detroit isn't as precise an analog to Buffalo as you keep insisting it is.  The greater Detroit metropolitan area population is a smidge over 3.5MM people.  The greater Buffalo metropolitan population is ~1.2MM.  Might Buffalo be expected to double their attendance if they had 3x the population?

Honestly, don’t bother with this guy. I told him something as directly as I could three times in a row and he proceeded to ignore that and claim otherwise in every single response. ***** that *****. No one needs to argue with somebody like that. 

[PASabreFan]

JC, welcome to the club.

[Brawndo]

The Sabres are paying Cody Hodgson 791,667 for the next two seasons. 
 

Detroit also offers COVID PCR Testing in the Arena for Canadian Fans, with results being emailed during the game. 
The cost is 85 Dollars per test and the First 100 Season Ticket Holders can sign up for free testing. 
The Red Wings have an estimated 1000 Canadian STH. 

Coupled with Fan’s Expectations being Higher for the Red Wings, this probably contributed to the larger STH Base. 
Along with a larger population base as mentioned. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Taro was in the arena. Check with him. I have watched most of the home games on TV. What he believes are the attendance figures and a number of people who cover the team have similarly stated that there are maybe 4000 plus fans at the games. There is no need to be precise in recognizing that there are few people who are attending the games. We are last in attendance in the league by far. That's a fact. 

So 4000 is an estimate. I was at the Detroit game and there were more than 4k ppl. Around 7-8k seemed about right. 

What is a fact is that selling tickets at 25% after charging season holders full price is *****. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So 4000 is an estimate. I was at the Detroit game and there were more than 4k ppl. Around 7-8k seemed about right. 

What is a fact is that selling tickets at 25% after charging season holders full price is *****. 

With all due respect, there was not even close to 7,000 at that game.  8,000 was the ANNOUNCED attendance.  To have 7-8,000 in a building that holds close to 19,000 would mean the building has bodies in 2 out of every 5 seats.  Not sure that even the 2 center ice 100 sections were above 60% capacity.  But when the ends in the 300's had ~25-40 people in each section (8 sections total) & no other sections came close to 50% with many of the "prime sections being at ~25% full; there is no way they were over 5,000 paying customers in the building.  They haven't even had bodies in every seat in the front row of the "good" 300's sections in at least 3 of the 4 yours truly went to.

To, the 2nd comment: 🍺

 

PS - and dating back to at least the criminals, announced attendance is distributed tickets, not turnstile.

[Doohickie]

On 11/13/2021 at 1:53 PM, The Ghost of Yuri said:

On 11/13/2021 at 8:29 AM, LGR4GM said:

Title should be Toronto vs Buffalo,  the visiting team comes first. 

This is not a hard and fast convention.  It only rigorously applies if the vs is replaced by an @

On 11/13/2021 at 8:32 AM, JohnC said:

For those in attendance or watching this game it may seem more like a home game for Toronto than for Buffalo. That's disappointing. 

Plus this.

@LGR4GM:  I noticed your "convention" is not even a convention on Sabrespace:

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

@LGR4GM:  I noticed your "convention" is not even a convention on Sabrespace:

You can either use vs/at or use vs where the home team is second.

[Doohickie]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

You can either use vs/at or use vs where the home team is second.

RIght.  It's not a hard and fast convention when vs is used.  Depends on context. 

My personal preference on GDT titles is to use the @, therefor no ambiguity.

[LGR4GM]

40 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

@LGR4GM:  I noticed your "convention" is not even a convention on Sabrespace:

 

34 minutes ago, SDS said:

You can either use vs/at or use vs where the home team is second.

The home team comes second. I don't really care what other standards we want to toss out. For year and year and years on this board and elsewhere the home team comes as the second team. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

RIght.  It's not a hard and fast convention when vs is used.  Depends on context. 

My personal preference on GDT titles is to use the @, therefor no ambiguity.

No it doesn't. Home team comes second and always has and always should. The NHL officially does it this way and we should have a standard so when ppl glance at it quick the know. As opposed to randomly some posters putting home team first and confusing everyone while being like "well it isn't always the standard!" 

[Doohickie]

39 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No it doesn't. Home team comes second and always has and always should. The NHL officially does it this way and we should have a standard so when ppl glance at it quick the know. As opposed to randomly some posters putting home team first and confusing everyone while being like "well it isn't always the standard!" 

I don't see vs there.  Where do you see vs?

[Doohickie]

Versus means against.  No indication of location.

@ means at, as in, the team listed after the @ tells you where you're at.

You're right in that the home team is generally listed second and you can find plenty of examples, but there are exceptions to that, as in the example I posted from our own SS schedule which is a Sabres team-centric list so it always lists Buffalo first and differentiates home and away by use of either vs for home games or @ for away games.

In short:  You're right, but not all the time.

Context.

[Broken Ankles]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Versus means against.  No indication of location.

@ means at, as in, the team listed after the @ tells you where you're at.

You're right in that the home team is generally listed second and you can find plenty of examples, but there are exceptions to that, as in the example I posted from our own SS schedule which is a Sabres team-centric list so it always lists Buffalo first and differentiates home and away by use of either vs for home games or @ for away games.

In short:  You're right, but not all the time.

Context.

 

can we ask @bob_sauve28 to close this thread once and for all?

[woods-racer]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Versus means against.  No indication of location.

@ means at, as in, the team listed after the @ tells you where you're at.

You're right in that the home team is generally listed second and you can find plenty of examples, but there are exceptions to that, as in the example I posted from our own SS schedule which is a Sabres team-centric list so it always lists Buffalo first and differentiates home and away by use of either vs for home games or @ for away games.

In short:  You're right, but not all the time.

Context.

Hate the SS schedule. Just do all vs. or at. Can't skim the schedule and know home and away, actually have to take time and read it. It's annoying and not used by me.

[PASabreFan]

I don't want this to end.

[SDS]

10 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

Hate the SS schedule. Just do all vs. or at. Can't skim the schedule and know home and away, actually have to take time and read it. It's annoying and not used by me.

You are free to type this all up. Are used a premade service. I’d be happy to replace it with someone’s own creation.

[PASabreFan]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

With all due respect, there was not even close to 7,000 at that game.  8,000 was the ANNOUNCED attendance.  To have 7-8,000 in a building that holds close to 19,000 would mean the building has bodies in 2 out of every 5 seats.  Not sure that even the 2 center ice 100 sections were above 60% capacity.  But when the ends in the 300's had ~25-40 people in each section (8 sections total) & no other sections came close to 50% with many of the "prime sections being at ~25% full; there is no way they were over 5,000 paying customers in the building.  They haven't even had bodies in every seat in the front row of the "good" 300's sections in at least 3 of the 4 yours truly went to.

To, the 2nd comment: 🍺

 

PS - and dating back to at least the criminals, announced attendance is distributed tickets, not turnstile.

To the last sentence, attendance records show that the average attendance for 1975-76 through 1979-80 was 16,433 (regular season, I assume). So it looks like distributed tickets has always been the norm. Of course, it's possible back then they had no way of counting the actual attendance (unless there's a counter in the turnstile.)

How did 1970s turnstiles work?

There. Now this thread will never end.