Face it, the plan for next year is another tank

[Andrew Amerk]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think you took that as a slight, when it was not intended to be anything other that what was said: a coach both good at and willing to focus on the development. More below.

It absolutely feels different. Tank is such a loaded word around here, but in this case it simply means short-term pain for long-term gain, dare I say “tank with dignity”

It’s an attempt to strip away the last vestiges of the failed Murray tank and this time do it properly with four key differences:

1) don’t gut the team without having a good farm system already in place. Mitts, Dahlin, Joki, Asplund, Tage, Bryson and to a lesser extent Samuelsson and Cozens already have pro experience under their belt and some sense of the NHL; they aren’t young kids being thrown to the wolves for the first time like Girgs and Risto were. UPL, Levi, Laaksonen, Johnson, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Rosen, Poltapov, Sardarsian, Kisakov etc. will be already in the system, but playing in the appropriate places and not moving here until they are ready.

2) bring in a coach focused on making our talented young players better, with a manager who holds him accountable for doing that, not a coach (Nolan) focused on trying to stay alive with an non-communicative GM who just wants you to lose, or a coach (Bylsma) with no development history tasked strictly to win for a GM with no larger vision or overall plan.

3) make sure your kids are kids with the proper mindset and you surround them with veterans capable of providing them with the leadership they need. No more Kanes and Bogosians mocking Gionta and Gorges to impressionable and maybe entitled Eichels and Reinharts.

4) once you’ve finished deconstructing the roster, try to win, be happy when you do and push for constant improvement. None of this two years of salted earth. Once Eichel is gone, every step becomes a step forward. If next year you end up finishing 10th like Ottawa did, that’s a good thing. You’re still getting another piece in the draft and that piece will be coming in to a better situation. It means you are further ahead on your path than you thought, the pieces you identified were the right ones, and you are on the right path.

Meh. Too much logic in this post. 
 

I wAnT tO wIn NoW! 

[Thorny]

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think you took that as a slight, when it was not intended to be anything other that what was said: a coach both good at and willing to focus on the development. More below.

It absolutely feels different. Tank is such a loaded word around here, but in this case it simply means short-term pain for long-term gain, dare I say “tank with dignity”

It’s an attempt to strip away the last vestiges of the failed Murray tank and this time do it properly with four key differences:

1) don’t gut the team without having a good farm system already in place. Mitts, Dahlin, Joki, Asplund, Tage, Bryson and to a lesser extent Samuelsson and Cozens already have pro experience under their belt and some sense of the NHL; they aren’t young kids being thrown to the wolves for the first time like Girgs and Risto were. UPL, Levi, Laaksonen, Johnson, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Rosen, Poltapov, Sardarsian, Kisakov etc. will be already in the system, but playing in the appropriate places and not moving here until they are ready.

2) bring in a coach focused on making our talented young players better, with a manager who holds him accountable for doing that, not a coach (Nolan) focused on trying to stay alive with an non-communicative GM who just wants you to lose, or a coach (Bylsma) with no development history tasked strictly to win for a GM with no larger vision or overall plan.

3) make sure your kids are kids with the proper mindset and you surround them with veterans capable of providing them with the leadership they need. No more Kanes and Bogosians mocking Gionta and Gorges to impressionable and maybe entitled Eichels and Reinharts.

4) once you’ve finished deconstructing the roster, try to win, be happy when you do and push for constant improvement. None of this two years of salted earth. Once Eichel is gone, every step becomes a step forward. If next year you end up finishing 10th like Ottawa did, that’s a good thing. You’re still getting another piece in the draft and that piece will be coming in to a better situation. It means you are further ahead on your path than you thought, the pieces you identified were the right ones, and you are on the right path.

1) I dunno, pretty sure Girgensons had played more NHL games at the time of that tank than Cozens, for example. Depends when you consider it starting I guess. Cozens has only played 41 NHL games. Same goes for Bryson, Samuelsson, etc. We also don't know about if the players will be in the appropriate spots and only "when ready" yet, to a certainty. I think people are glossing over the fact we had prospects in the system at that time, too. We kept coming in at the top of all those prospect lists. We are just listing every prospect in the system right now because most haven't the chance to be failed NHLers yet, which is what most statistically become. If we are bad next year, how is Power/next year's pick in any better position than Eichel and Sam? In reality Cozens and Mitts are in a similar spot, too. 

2) ya

3) this is the big thing we have to wait and see on - no indication Adams intends on surrounding them with capable vets

4) also remains to be seen 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Thorny

[darksabre]

Assuming Eichel gets traded here shortly it's pretty obvious that this team is going to be led by the kid from the Yukon. Who knows. Maybe it's the right move. 

[sabremike]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Meh. Too much logic in this post. 
 

I wAnT tO wIn NoW! 

If you play in a league that is literally designed through mechanisms like the cap and loser points to create parity being competitive should be the goal every season.

[Thorny]

Just now, sabremike said:

If you play in a league that is literally designed through mechanisms like the cap and loser points to create parity being competitive should be the goal every season.

Not to mention, it's an entertainment product

[Thorny]

Like, Eichel had ROR as a centre to play behind - what insulation will Cozens have? It's a mistake to assume we aren't throwing the kids to the wolves. Need to see veterans brought in first. If you don't think they need veteran insulation that's another argument, but the roster right now simply does not look much different (actually looks worse) than the 15-16 team our "failed" core started out in 

[Andrew Amerk]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Not to mention, it's an entertainment product

It’s not entertaining to not even make the playoffs 10 years in a row. 

I was happier as a kid watching the Sabres lose to the Bruins every playoffs in the late 80s and early 90’s until May Day happened. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

It’s not entertaining to not even make the playoffs 10 years in a row. 

I was happier as a kid watching the Sabres lose to the Bruins every playoffs in the late 80s and early 90’s until May Day happened. 

I very much miss being able to simply enjoy a full season rather than my team being out of it within the first couple months. We haven't even made a fight for the playoffs. I miss being a part of the real league, basically. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

1) I dunno, pretty sure Girgensons had played more NHL games at the time of that tank than Cozens, for example. Depends when you consider it starting I guess. Cozens has only played 41 NHL games. Same goes for Bryson, Samuelsson, etc. We also don't know about if the players will be in the appropriate spots and only "when ready" yet, to a certainty. I think people are glossing over the fact we had prospects in the system at that time, too. We kept coming in at the top of all those prospect lists. We are just listing every prospect in the system right now because most haven't the chance to be failed NHLers yet, which is what most statistically become. If we are bad next year, how is Power/next year's pick in any better position than Eichel and Sam? In reality Cozens and Mitts are in a similar spot, too. 

2) ya

3) this is the big thing we have to wait and see on - no indication Adams intends on surrounding them with capable vets

4) also remains to be seen 

If it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t saying they are doing this, only that if they are committed to this path - which I believe they are -it’s the way they can and should do it.

As the prospects themselves, I might be wrong but I perceive starting a sell-off in 2021 with the first group already in the system with at least one pro season under their belts is preferable to the 2nd in 2012. We’re talking completely different time periods.

Mittelstadt, Asplund, Thompson, Cozens, Bryson, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, Lukkonnen, Dahlin, Ruotsalainen,

Girgensons, Kassian, McNabb, Foligno, Myers, Ennis, Adam

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t saying they are doing this, only that if they are committed to this path - which I believe they are -it’s the way they can and should do it.

As the prospects themselves, I might be wrong but I perceive starting a sell-off with the first group already in the system with at least one pro season under their belts is preferable to the 2nd:

Mittelstadt, Asplund, Thompson, Cozens, Bryson, Samuelsson, Jokiharju, Lukkonnen, Dahlin, Ruotsalainen,

Girgensons, Kassian, McNabb, Foligno, Myers, Ennis, Adam

 

Ah ok, I fully agree in that case. 

Guess we'll have to wait and see on vet roster alterations rest of the summer

 

[dudacek]

@thorny further to the above, Peterka, Quinn, this year’s large crop, and next year’s two first rounders all avoid next year’s tough season and hopefully join and augment a team on the way up when they are ready.

Edited July 25, 2021 by dudacek

[Buffalonill]

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Meh. Too much logic in this post. 
 

I wAnT tO wIn NoW! 

Me too, but I think they might next year.  Resign Ullmark.  Find him a 1B buddy, sign/trade for a serviceable 1C.  Maybe just let the other team's top line grind Cody Eakin into the ground, I don't care.  Hell I noticed on the CapFriendly page it lists Asplund as C/LW; see if he can drive the fourth line.  Or bring back Sheahan.  He was not flashy but relatively effective.

[nfreeman]

7 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Depends on what type of goaltending we get. It’s not looking good right now,, but there is still time 

 

7 hours ago, klos1963 said:

If they're going to tank, not addressing the goaltending issue is a great way to accomplish it.

Yes.  The steps they take in net will be the key factor IMHO in evaluating whether they are trying to lose.  I really hope that they are not doing so and will take real action on goaltending.  If they do not, I will be deeply unhappy and will feel betrayed.

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think you took that as a slight, when it was not intended to be anything other that what was said: a coach both good at and willing to focus on the development. More below.

It absolutely feels different. Tank is such a loaded word around here, but in this case it simply means short-term pain for long-term gain, dare I say “tank with dignity”

It’s an attempt to strip away the last vestiges of the failed Murray tank and this time do it properly with four key differences:

1) don’t gut the team without having a good farm system already in place. Mitts, Dahlin, Joki, Asplund, Tage, Bryson and to a lesser extent Samuelsson and Cozens already have pro experience under their belt and some sense of the NHL; they aren’t young kids being thrown to the wolves for the first time like Girgs and Risto were. UPL, Levi, Laaksonen, Johnson, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Rosen, Poltapov, Sardarsian, Kisakov etc. will be already in the system, but playing in the appropriate places and not moving here until they are ready.

2) bring in a coach focused on making our talented young players better, with a manager who holds him accountable for doing that, not a coach (Nolan) focused on trying to stay alive with an non-communicative GM who just wants you to lose, or a coach (Bylsma) with no development history tasked strictly to win for a GM with no larger vision or overall plan.

3) make sure your kids are kids with the proper mindset and you surround them with veterans capable of providing them with the leadership they need. No more Kanes and Bogosians mocking Gionta and Gorges to impressionable and maybe entitled Eichels and Reinharts.

4) once you’ve finished deconstructing the roster, try to win, be happy when you do and push for constant improvement. None of this two years of salted earth. Once Eichel is gone, every step becomes a step forward. If next year you end up finishing 10th like Ottawa did, that’s a good thing. You’re still getting another piece in the draft and that piece will be coming in to a better situation. It means you are further ahead on your path than you thought, the pieces you identified were the right ones, and you are on the right path.

Now this is a perspective I can get behind, unlike my initial reaction to the OP.  A tank now, like the first one, would be a stupid abomination. 

 

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

1) I dunno, pretty sure Girgensons had played more NHL games at the time of that tank than Cozens, for example. Depends when you consider it starting I guess. Cozens has only played 41 NHL games. Same goes for Bryson, Samuelsson, etc. We also don't know about if the players will be in the appropriate spots and only "when ready" yet, to a certainty. I think people are glossing over the fact we had prospects in the system at that time, too. We kept coming in at the top of all those prospect lists. We are just listing every prospect in the system right now because most haven't the chance to be failed NHLers yet, which is what most statistically become. If we are bad next year, how is Power/next year's pick in any better position than Eichel and Sam? In reality Cozens and Mitts are in a similar spot, too. 

2) ya

3) this is the big thing we have to wait and see on - no indication Adams intends on surrounding them with capable vets

4) also remains to be seen 

Fair response.  Certainly KA is accountable and needs to execute the remains to be seen items.

[PerreaultForever]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

Yes.  The steps they take in net will be the key factor IMHO in evaluating whether they are trying to lose.  I really hope that they are not doing so and will take real action on goaltending.  If they do not, I will be deeply unhappy and will feel betrayed.

I agree. I'm going to view this tank slightly differently for my own sanity (and small amount of optimism). We're not selling off assets in order to tank, this already is/was the tank. Owen Power is your tanking gift. A solid cornerstone D man. That's it. Out with the old, in with the new. new culture. So THIS, right now, last place this season, that's the bottom. Now it's a climb up from that bottom and just a question of how fast or slow it goes. 

I see no way we're dead last next year. That's almost certainly Arizona or maybe Columbus. Not sure we will be any good (yet) but maybe we can start to play properly, with enthusiasm, entertainingly, and as a team. 

So be optimistic. This is the bottom. Only one way to go. 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

Face it, the plan for next year is another tank

[triumph_communes]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

Like, Eichel had ROR as a centre to play behind - what insulation will Cozens have? It's a mistake to assume we aren't throwing the kids to the wolves. Need to see veterans brought in first. If you don't think they need veteran insulation that's another argument, but the roster right now simply does not look much different (actually looks worse) than the 15-16 team our "failed" core started out in 

I think everyone is clear if Eichel goes a stud young center has to be in the return.  Doesn’t negate everything else. 
 

Cozens CAN get there. It’ll just be more of a blue collar approach.  It’s much better than the listless Reinhart approach. 

[Radar]

3 hours ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

Technically not a tank(we'll try to lose) but for all appearances a total rebuild.

[Happy Days]

Maybe they expect to get their next franchise center in next years draft to replace Eichel. Hopefully what they get in return for Eichel can bring in a very high end number 2 center as part of a package.

[nucci]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I agree. I'm going to view this tank slightly differently for my own sanity (and small amount of optimism). We're not selling off assets in order to tank, this already is/was the tank. Owen Power is your tanking gift. A solid cornerstone D man. That's it. Out with the old, in with the new. new culture. So THIS, right now, last place this season, that's the bottom. Now it's a climb up from that bottom and just a question of how fast or slow it goes. 

I see no way we're dead last next year. That's almost certainly Arizona or maybe Columbus. Not sure we will be any good (yet) but maybe we can start to play properly, with enthusiasm, entertainingly, and as a team. 

So be optimistic. This is the bottom. Only one way to go. 

or we stay at bottom

[nucci]

If they don't make a big effort to win this year , you can ruin your new young core with constant losing. Not a good way to develop them.

[miles]

16 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

This feels different. 

These trades needed to be made, as it appears that these guys were very disgruntled, probably rightfully so.

I have to believe that the Sabres learned their lesson the last time.

The Sabres will be bad this coming season.  There is no need to tank to get a top pick.

at my job we had an entire department that was disgruntled, and they basically gave up trying. they got let go and they brought in all new people to fix the issue. when i asked why they didnt have overlap to train, they said the bad rubs off onto the good. it was better to just start over. i know its not exactly the same, but close enough. by the way it worked. in the past they had one disgruntled train the next guy and he taught him the bad habits. 

 

i think you are absolutely right

Edited July 25, 2021 by Mike Honcho

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

If they don't make a big effort to win this year , you can ruin your new young core with constant losing. Not a good way to develop them.

Don't see any possible way this team wins over 15 games 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

9 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

This is the worst post ever ...

lol !!

(just kidding)

I hate it though, as a strong and proud anti-tanker.

[Curt]

12 hours ago, jsb said:

It may not fit your definition of a Tank but when you trade 1st line winger Hall & Team MVP Reinhart, your 2nd line C in Stall, your team leader in TOI in Risto plus Montour and actively looking to trade your best player, Captain and #1 C in Jack E. in the last 4 months and get nothing back but futures for all intents and purposes, what else can you call it??

I find this post to be rather disingenuous.  Surely you realize that Hall, Staal, Montour were UFAs who would not be returning for next season either way.  Yet you listed them as part of a tanking strategy.