LabattBlue Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 3 hours ago, Derrico said: If they can get both Boldy and Rossi and 2 firsts, and the Pegulas are willing to pay some of the contract, I think this trade would be in the best interest of the Buffalo Sabres. Sure seems like the return will never be better. I think if this was a formal offer, the deal would have been done already. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Digger said: Okay I guess that you're right with the Rangers. They should be ready to win soon or now given the roster ages. I guess that I just saw Lafreniere, Kakko and K'Andre Miller meshing in pretty well with their current team and switching Zibanejad for Eichel (to manage the salary cap) doesn't seem to me to be the best way to upgrade their team. Would you make the trade if you were the Rangers GM and if so what would you offer up to get it done? Lafreniere. That simple. Other pieces can be part of it to make the cap work, etcetera, but in terms of important parts, that's it. Not Lafreniere+++, just Lafreniere. If I'm Drury that move improves my team immensely right now and likely moving forward as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freester Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 35 minutes ago, Digger said: Okay I guess that you're right with the Rangers. They should be ready to win soon or now given the roster ages. I guess that I just saw Lafreniere, Kakko and K'Andre Miller meshing in pretty well with their current team and switching Zibanejad for Eichel (to manage the salary cap) doesn't seem to me to be the best way to upgrade their team. Would you make the trade if you were the Rangers GM and if so what would you offer up to get it done? It really depends on what contract Zibanejad is demanding. Both he an Eichel are not playing together. If he wants short term reasonable money, than I would just keep him and abandon the trade idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 1 hour ago, JohnC said: If this deal is as described and the Sabres refused to retain some of Jack's salary I will be upset and disillusioned to the extent of considering walking away. As you stated the Sabres may be 4 yrs or so away from being a cup contender but at least there will be some hope about the prospects for this franchise. Just because a team isn't a legitimate cup contending team doesn't mean that it can't be an entertaining and competitive team. I can certainly understand not wanting to retain 2.5 mil for 5 years. It quite literally puts the team in a 2nd/3rd liner contract for no one. I wouldn’t trade Eichel for Lafreniere straight up regardless of my feelings about the Rangers. He’s a mediocre NHLer who slates to be a winger and not a center. He’s never impressed me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 10 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: I can certainly understand not wanting to retain 2.5 mil for 5 years. It quite literally puts the team in a 2nd/3rd liner contract for no one. I wouldn’t trade Eichel for Lafreniere straight up regardless of my feelings about the Rangers. He’s a mediocre NHLer who slates to be a winger and not a center. He’s never impressed me The good thing is, the Rangers aren’t trading said “mediocre” player for broken Jack, so you have nothing to worry about. 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 1 minute ago, thewookie1 said: I can certainly understand not wanting to retain 2.5 mil for 5 years. It quite literally puts the team in a 2nd/3rd liner contract for no one. If by assuming some of the Jack contract the return would bring you back at least two high end prospects plus some high draft picks I would do that in a heartbeat. The prospects would still be on the ELCs so there will be a lot more salary going out than being brought in. It should also be noted that the Sabres have plenty of cap space so assuming some of Jack's contract should be easy to handle. What it comes down to is if you can get a deal that meets your baseline return, then why refuse it if there are no better offers? It wasn't that long ago that the Sabres traded ROR St. Louis before his bonus kicked in for a paltry return. It was reported that Carolina was willing to offer much more in a ROR deal if the Sabres would have paid the player's bonus. The Sabres said no and ended getting little in his trade. What's worse than making a glaring mistake is repeating it! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 16 minutes ago, JohnC said: If by assuming some of the Jack contract the return would bring you back at least two high end prospects plus some high draft picks I would do that in a heartbeat. The prospects would still be on the ELCs so there will be a lot more salary going out than being brought in. It should also be noted that the Sabres have plenty of cap space so assuming some of Jack's contract should be easy to handle. What it comes down to is if you can get a deal that meets your baseline return, then why refuse it if there are no better offers? It wasn't that long ago that the Sabres traded ROR St. Louis before his bonus kicked in for a paltry return. It was reported that Carolina was willing to offer much more in a ROR deal if the Sabres would have paid the player's bonus. The Sabres said no and ended getting little in his trade. What's worse than making a glaring mistake is repeating it! It's not the first 3 years that are the problem, it's the latter 2. Even if Boldy and Rossi were in the deal their ELCs would expire prior to the retention which could potentially harm us. Not to mention that's 12.5 mil to not play here and I doubt the Pegulas would be on board with that for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 22, 2021 Report Share Posted August 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, thewookie1 said: It's not the first 3 years that are the problem, it's the latter 2. Even if Boldy and Rossi were in the deal their ELCs would expire prior to the retention which could potentially harm us. Not to mention that's 12.5 mil to not play here and I doubt the Pegulas would be on board with that for better or worse. If you want to add talent to a franchise that lacks sufficient talent then you make some reasonable accommodations to get that done. The amount of money the Sabres would have to assume in the Minnesota deal that was described would be spread out over years. It would be far from being burdensome. Coming up with reasons not to do something is easy. Getting something done when it is your best option is an opportunity that should be taken, IMHO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas23 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 hours ago, JohnC said: I disagree with your evaluation of the draft. As you noted they drafted players who fit in well with their system and philosophy. It's not glitzy but it is sound. That's the plan that is being followed. The execution is exceptional. That's good drafting. Outside of Allen and White, the Bills drafting has been sound (ie average), but the majority of their starters were not drafted by the Bills. Most of our starting OL was drafted by other teams. Our entire starting WR corps, other teams. On defense, our 2 starting safeties, other teams. Half our DL and 1/3 of our LBs, other teams. McKenzie and our punter, other teams. Our drafting on defense has been very suspect. What does this have to do with the Sabres? If KA wants to follow the same model, he needs to be continuously looking for players to upgrade the roster. Beane is tireless in this regard. He’s always looking to upgrade positions and increase competition. The big problem with this is that NHL contracts are guaranteed. Beane can afford to sign 10 players in FA with the hopes of hitting gold on 1-2 and then cut the rest during training camp. KA can’t do this. The best he can do is give out 1 year 750k contracts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 39 minutes ago, kas23 said: Outside of Allen and White, the Bills drafting has been sound (ie average), but the majority of their starters were not drafted by the Bills. Most of our starting OL was drafted by other teams. Our entire starting WR corps, other teams. On defense, our 2 starting safeties, other teams. Half our DL and 1/3 of our LBs, other teams. McKenzie and our punter, other teams. Our drafting on defense has been very suspect. What does this have to do with the Sabres? If KA wants to follow the same model, he needs to be continuously looking for players to upgrade the roster. Beane is tireless in this regard. He’s always looking to upgrade positions and increase competition. The big problem with this is that NHL contracts are guaranteed. Beane can afford to sign 10 players in FA with the hopes of hitting gold on 1-2 and then cut the rest during training camp. KA can’t do this. The best he can do is give out 1 year 750k contracts. As you highlight pro football is a lot different than pro hockey because of the structure of the contracts. There is more player movement in football than hockey. But except for those long term and expensive contracts there is also a lot of player movement. In hockey players are drafted at a young age and it takes time to develop them. That's not so much the case in football. In the end what matters isn't how you assemble talent as it is that you do it. Good management makes more wiser personnel decisions than they do make mistakes. No front office is going to get every personnel decision right. But it is your body of work that is reflected in your record that indicates how competent it is. When you compare the current football operation to the hockey operation over the past few years the contrast is stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 6 hours ago, JohnC said: I disagree with your evaluation of the draft. As you noted they drafted players who fit in well with their system and philosophy. It's not glitzy but it is sound. That's the plan that is being followed. The execution is exceptional. That's good drafting. Agree. Just moving up and getting Allen was huge. They wanted Allen all along. They were right about Allen's promise, work ethic, and leadership - and “most experts” were very, very wrong. They missed on just a few picks like Zay Jones, and possibly Cody Ford who is fighting to hold a starting position. But they hit on many more. Tre, Dawkins, Edmunds, Davis, Johnson, Bass, were excellent picks and I think Oliver, Epenesa and Rousseau will all breakout. The Sabres can follow the same principles: Team first. Follow the process. EARN the right to win. Coaches and player that have a GROWTH MINDSET. I may take a bit longer in hockey but dammit let’s get to step 1, compete every night. Play hard. NEVER TANK. ok, back to hockey. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 What if Jack just put up an emoji regarding something in his personal life; female drama, etc.... I know a ton of people that love to put passive aggressive crap up for nonspecific reasons. I mean, sure, it could be because he's not traded, but it also could mean absolutley nothing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7+6=13 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Wyldnwoody44 said: What if Jack just put up an emoji regarding something in his personal life; female drama, etc.... I know a ton of people that love to put passive aggressive crap up for nonspecific reasons. I mean, sure, it could be because he's not traded, but it also could mean absolutley nothing. And people question his leadership. Ridiculous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert11 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 16 hours ago, Pimlach said: There is nothing wrong with Adams talking to GMs, in general or about Eichel (a player that has wanted to leave since Botterill was fired, maybe sooner), or about anyone else. Adams is GM of a last place team. No player is sacred. If someone called Beane about Allen, Beane would indeed laugh about it, then he would politely move the conversation. He could ask him about his wife and family, his golf game, ask about the upcoming NFL meetings, maybe even talk about other players …. Beene would talk to an NFL peer. Brandon Beane is a highly polished professional. Adams needs to do establish himself so he has to engage in conversations with his peers. Let’s be clear, Eichel is not Allen. Not on the field, and not off the field. Eichel is just not at Allen’s level. Allen is an elite talent at the single most critical position in any sport. The Bills are on the cusp of a championship and Allen is the single most important player on the team. Eichel is a very good player, a top 10 center with potential to maybe be a top 4 or 5 center. Allen makes his team better. Eichel has not achieved that. Allen is a true leader and is loved by his teammates and coaches. Eichel is friends with some of his teammates. The only real similarity is that Eichel works very hard at his craft, just like Allen. I sure would like to sit down with Ryan O’Reilly and get his take on what was going on when he was in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbert11 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 14 hours ago, Doohickie said: It's been so long since anyone has actually posted a rumor or speculation about trading Eichel. At this point maybe this megathread should be shut down. Nothing's happening until something happens and then it will be a new thread. That sounds like a Yogi Berra quote: “Nothing’s happening until something happens.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 18 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said: Retaining salary is that just a cap thing, or do the Sabres actually have to pay the $? Any retained salary needs to be paid and whatever portion the Sabres retain they have to pay for the remainder of the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 16 hours ago, JohnC said: I will be upset and disillusioned to the extent of considering walking away. We only want fans who want to be here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 16 hours ago, JohnC said: If Adams follows the McBeane model of rebuilding with the players that fit what they want to accomplish and culling out the players that don't fit in with their blueprint for the type of roster they want to construct I believe that this roster can be remade in two to three years. Although the Sabres have and will shed some of their established core players the GM will not be starting from scratch. We do have a young core to build around. And we have a few good players in the AHL pipeline who are close to being ready i.e. a year or two away. One of the main reasons that the Bills have been able to make a rather rapid turnaround is because their drafting has been solid. For the most part there is nothing dazzling about their selections that have included a number of value picks in the mid-rounds. And if you review their free agent pickups they are players who fit in well. Other than Diggs I can't recall a high profile free agent acquisition or trade exchange. In general I like would Adams has done. He's had some tough luck that he couldn't control. Jack being injured and thus being devalued on the market hurt with bringing in some good pieces. And Ullmark upping his contract demands with us beyond his value created a big hole at the backstop position. To Adams credit although keeping Ullmark was important his value demands didn't match his talent level. That showed good discipline and judgment on the part of the GM. The big issue is whether the owners will be willing to give this regime the time needed to do what is required to do to successfully rework this roster. The big difference between the league is that rookies in the NFL can contribute right away....late round picks can come in and play and in 2-3 years can be solid players. Sabres 1st pick and 1st overall is not even playing this year. 1st overall pick in the NFL usually plays right away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 hours ago, gilbert11 said: That sounds like a Yogi Berra quote: “Nothing’s happening until something happens.” Well, except I literally meant what I said. Time for talking is over. We've hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed every scenario. Just tell me what we get for Eichel, the rest of this is just hogwallow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 26 minutes ago, nucci said: The big difference between the league is that rookies in the NFL can contribute right away....late round picks can come in and play and in 2-3 years can be solid players. Sabres 1st pick and 1st overall is not even playing this year. 1st overall pick in the NFL usually plays right away You are absolutely right. In addition to the big difference in the sports what the Bills have demonstrated is that when your top people are high quality they will in time put together a winning operation, assuming that there is little outside interference. The Bills have gone from being a laughingstock operation to a well-respected and admired organization. And that turnabout happened fairly quickly after the McDermott and Beane hiring. Staffing matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 22 hours ago, Pimlach said: There is nothing wrong with Adams talking to GMs, in general or about Eichel (a player that has wanted to leave since Botterill was fired, maybe sooner), or about anyone else. Adams is GM of a last place team. No player is sacred. If someone called Beane about Allen, Beane would indeed laugh about it, then he would politely move the conversation. He could ask him about his wife and family, his golf game, ask about the upcoming NFL meetings, maybe even talk about other players …. Beene would talk to an NFL peer. Brandon Beane is a highly polished professional. Adams needs to do establish himself so he has to engage in conversations with his peers. Let’s be clear, Eichel is not Allen. Not on the field, and not off the field. Eichel is just not at Allen’s level. Allen is an elite talent at the single most critical position in any sport. The Bills are on the cusp of a championship and Allen is the single most important player on the team. Eichel is a very good player, a top 10 center with potential to maybe be a top 4 or 5 center. Allen makes his team better. Eichel has not achieved that. Allen is a true leader and is loved by his teammates and coaches. Eichel is friends with some of his teammates. The only real similarity is that Eichel works very hard at his craft, just like Allen. On 8/21/2021 at 12:46 AM, Pimlach said: Prove that statement. Please. Show us how you know this. Seems more likely Eichel’s agents are trying to get him moved. Adams said “teams” have talked to him about “players” at the time of the Eichel/Rangers rumors. And yes, the Sabres organization has become a joke. We know that. Edited August 23, 2021 by Thorny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: I disagree. Certain players can and do lift their teams. Did Chris Drury lift the Sabres? It's not always a question of talent but leadership. Like McDavid in Edmonton. This is a very common misconception. By "lift" the Sabres, what really happened is Drury's considerable leadership ability provided a key variable in filling out an equation, the equation of a winning hockey team. Jack may not have the leadership abilities of Drury, sure. But he's also much better on ice. Jack *was* providing a key variable, too, it's just that Jack's wasn't in a position to "make a difference", in perception, because the rest of the equation was too barren. Look at the roster around Drury, and the one around Eichel, and tell me you are comfortable saying Eichel didn't provide "differential value" with all of the other question marks left unsatisfied. Just because leadership lifts teams doesn't mean talent doesn't, also. Jack provides great value - he finished 8th in MVP voting his last full year. That's value to his team. This is a player who ranked near the top of the league year in, year out in percentage of team goals he had a hand in. He was literally right before our eyes making his line mates, both at even strength, and on the powerplay, better. This is provable statistically. He did lift the team, he just couldn't lift them enough. Edited August 23, 2021 by Thorny 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 22 hours ago, mjd1001 said: My opinion is a lot of Sabres fans over-rate Eichel. Many still think he is that generational player when he is not. He is a very good player on the ice, and all-star for sure, but not even close to generational. A couple weeks ago I was traveling through northern NY state for work and picked up on a radio show (I think it was out of Ottawa) and they had a guest on that explained Eichel in a very simple way but it goes to what I believe. This guest said Jack Eichel is a top 5-6 TALENT in the NHL, but he is not a top 5-6 PLAYER. Not that he is lazy or has a terrible attitude, but there is just something missing that would make that talent turn into results. Maybe it is the team he plays on (Sabres), but his top 5 talent only translates into a top 20-30 player right now. I'm sure this only applies to the hockey team, right? Football completely immune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Thorny said: I'm sure this only applies to the hockey team, right? Football completely immune? I have no idea what point you're trying to make? I did not reference football in any way in my post. Edited August 23, 2021 by mjd1001 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, PASabreFan said: None of which, of course, can be put into a spreadsheet, which is why it's discounted by some. It shouldn't be discounted. But it's a two-way street. Yes leadership as difficult as it is to quantify provides values, but that doesn't mean that players contributing outstanding talent aren't also providing an ability that makes their team better. Of course Jack made his team better. The belief isn't that a player and their talent, leadership ability, what have you can't make a team better - it's just that in the NHL no one player can do so alone, not to the extent we see with other sports. 1 minute ago, mjd1001 said: I have no idea what point you're trying to make? The post you were responding to was a glorification of Allen (not saying he's not great), the juxtaposition was a bit striking is all. Edited August 23, 2021 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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