Sabres Fan in NS Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Thorny said: So there isn't one player on the team we can say lifted them? It's a condemnation of every player? Jack does when he plays. Very similar to McDavid actually in the sense that neither has gotten their respective teams anywhere. One could make the point that Jack does a better job at this than McDavid, because the Oilers have a better roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 38 minutes ago, Thorny said: I agree Eichel wants out now. The timeframe you are linking that back to is purely speculation - something you took issue with. That the rumours started when Adams took over is just as easily applied to a guess that Adams must have wanted him gone, as it is to the idea that Jack must have wanted out, at that point, because of the regime change. Certainly, no one on this board was talking about Jack wanting out with any kind of certainty before recent events. In fact, those claims were largely shot down. The trade rumors stated after Adams took over. I have not taken issue with that and there is no speculation. The question that has not been answered is why they started. When Adams took over, Eichel was apparently concerned/frustrated about another regime change. He said he likes RK and he was happy that RK was staying. Next there were trade rumors. Adams said he liked Eichel, wanted him to be a Sabre, and he did not solicit the trade talks. He said GMs have called and talked about players and that is normal - that was in response to the first Ranger rumors. If you believe that Adams did not solicit the talks then It is reasonable to assume that Eichel’s agents, working for their client, werereaching out to teams, and these teams (like the Rangers) reached out to Adams. Right now we don’t know what exactly was said back then behind closed doors. We might not ever know. After the season, Jack’s press conference, and the actions of the Eichel camp have indicated they want a trade. It doesn’t matter if Jack is quoted as saying he wants one or not. The comments and actions of the Sabres camp is that they would consider a trade if their parameters for a trade are met. Adams off season moves, or lack thereof, indicate another rebuild that will not include Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Pimlach said: Adams off season moves, or lack thereof, indicate another rebuild that will not include Jack. Agree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Thorny said: Disagree. I'm just trying to talk hockey. Your latest post is not all about talking hockey. The proof is in your final word and in the reply it generated. Edited August 23, 2021 by New Scotland (NS) goodlyer words ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Thorny said: So there isn't one player on the team we can say "lifted" them? It's a condemnation of every player? The coming response is probably "we expect more of Eichel", and my response to that would be: and he delivered. I mean, he was far and away our best player when on the ice, and contributed more than anyone to the scoresheet. Directly responsible for upping the production of other players on the team better than anyone else on the roster, statistically. Watch Dylan Cozens this year for an example of team lifting leadership. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said: Watch Dylan Cozens this year for an example of team lifting leadership. By what metric? Will the team achieve more wins than it did under Eichel? Will Cozens perform better than Eichel? The team will lose in a more appealing way because of Cozens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Thorny said: By what metric? Will the team achieve more wins than it did under Eichel? Will Cozens perform better than Eichel? The team will lose in a more appealing way because of Cozens? Metric? More wins. Better attitude overall. The team doesn't have to make the playoffs to show improvement. I do think these kids will surprise. Cozens has that Josh Allen vibe to me. He carries his home town with him. He's not going to let them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said: Did they trade him yet? Maybe? With all the yakety yak going on we could have missed the big announcement ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Metric? More wins. Better attitude overall. The team doesn't have to make the playoffs to show improvement. I do think these kids will surprise. Cozens has that Josh Allen vibe to me. He carries his home town with him. He's not going to let them down. Thanks, that's fair. I don't agree with the way winning or not winning is held up against one player, as it has been with Jack, considering the sport and how difficult it is in said sport for one player to will his team to a win, in the way it is in say, football or basketball - but if that's the standard being applied, as long as we're applying that to Cozens in the same way (ie - what you just laid out - because Cozens has the leadership Eichel lacked we will see a hockey team more adept at winning) I think it's fair deuce. Edited August 23, 2021 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Thorny said: Thanks, that's fair. I don't agree with the way winning or not winning is held up against one player, as it has been with Jack, considering the sport and how difficult it is in said sport for one player to will his team to a win, in the way it is in say, football or basketball - but if that's the standard being applied, as long as we're applying that to Cozens in the same way (ie - what you just laid out - because Cozens has the leadership Eichel lacked we will see a hockey team more adept at winning) I think it's fair deuce. I think in hockey you need a locker room leader. Someone who won't let anyone slack or give less than 100%. That's what I see in Cozens. He won't let anyone take shifts off. The last few Sabres seasons there was too much self pity and frustration (Some of that coming from you know who.) That was understandable under inflexible Krueger. I think it will be much different with Granato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said: A far as I know, all they ever said publicly was that they didn't really care if they played in Buffalo, or elsewhere, especially Sam and Risto. Jack was mostly moaning about a disconnect and looking forward to next season here or someplace else. Samson said publicly after the trade he was never resigning in Buffalo. That one is sealed. Risto reportedly demanded a trade last offseason, no? We know what Jack is doing. In my view, all three demanded out in their own way. Jack’s agents have done as much publicly now. Whether it was driven by them first learning the Sabres wanted to move on or not is the only question, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: I think in hockey you need a locker room leader. Someone who won't let anyone slack or give less than 100%. That's what I see in Cozens. He won't let anyone take shifts off. The last few Sabres seasons there was too much self pity and frustration (Some of that coming from you know who.) That was understandable under inflexible Krueger. I think it will be much different with Granato. Granato is an interesting discussion point in this regard because one of the things he said I found most revelatory were his comments on the locker room. He went out of his way, a couple times, to explicitly (I'd argue, from memory - uncommonly) state the fans had "no idea" what the room was really like and how fired up and competitive these guys are. He's the one with first hand knowledge. To me that shows the demeanors coming across in interviews or otherwise (re: self pity and frustration) weren't actually things manifesting in the locker room, at least according to Granato. Granato was in that room when captain Jack was in there, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Thorny said: Granato is an interesting discussion point in this regard because one of the things he said I found most revelatory were his comments on the locker room. He went out of his way, a couple times, to explicitly (I'd argue, from memory - uncommonly) state the fans had "no idea" what the room was really like and how fired up and competitive these guys are. He's the one with first hand knowledge. To me that shows the demeanors coming across in interviews or otherwise (re: self pity and frustration) weren't actually things manifesting in the locker room, at least according to Granato. Granato was in that room when captain Jack was in there, too. He specifically has referenced Sam in that way on multiple occasions. He named Staal and Risto as well in the context of when he took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, dudacek said: He specifically has referenced Sam in that way on multiple occasions. He named Staal and Risto as well in the context of when he took over. Tells me a couple things: 1 - Unless these guys' dormant leadership abilities sprung into life once the dampering Jack was out of the way, Eichel, while potentially not having particularly strong leadership ability at this time, did nothing to "infect" a strong leadership mindset that was apparently already very present, in Granato's estimation. 2 - Others have already said it obviously but Sam and Risto would have been back if they wanted to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 56 minutes ago, Thorny said: So there isn't one player on the team we can say "lifted" them? It's a condemnation of every player? In this specific instance the answer may very well be yes. 7 minutes ago, Thorny said: Tells me a couple things: 1 - Unless these guys' dormant leadership abilities sprung into life once the dampering Jack was out of the way, Eichel, while potentially not having particularly strong leadership ability at this time, did nothing to "infect" a strong leadership mindset that was apparently already very present, in Granato's estimation. 2 - Others have already said it obviously but Sam and Risto would have been back if they wanted to be. A 3rd option- Granato was being ad upbeat as possible and was lobbying to get these guys to want to be here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Weave said: In this specific instance the answer may very well be yes. With the evidence we've seen of players who, here, had their ability and leadership ability lamented, only to go onto new environments where they found substantial success, to me it's more likely we've had too many players in roles where too much was being asked of them. House of cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, Thorny said: With the evidence we've seen of players who, here, had their ability and leadership ability lamented, only to go onto new environments where they found substantial success, to me it's more likely we've had too many players in roles where too much was being asked of them. House of cards. It was a hair tongue in cheek. But not entirely. The issues surrounding this team over the last 10 years are complex. Jack isn’t guilty of them, but IMO he’s not innocent either. I think we lucked into the wrong guy for the job, but the job also was exceedingly complicated. House of cards is accurate for all of the layers of failure we have endured. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 58 minutes ago, Thorny said: because Cozens has the leadership Eichel lacked we will see a hockey team more adept at winning) I think it's fair deuce. Cozens has to be the most overrated 13 point scorer who didn't score a point in his final 8 games that has ever existed on a Sabres roster. I like the kid myself but holy cow are you in for a letdown IMO. Let him prove himself before we hand the crown to him. Does he have potential to be a leader, I hope so but to put that burden on a kid who hasn't done jack squat yet in his career is mind boggling to me. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjd1001 Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, jsb said: Cozens has to be the most overrated 13 point scorer who didn't score a point in his final 8 games that has ever existed on a Sabres roster. I like the kid myself but holy cow are you in for a letdown IMO. Let him prove himself before we hand the crown to him. Does he have potential to be a leader, I hope so but to put that burden on a kid who hasn't done jack squat yet in his career is mind boggling to me. I agree with you. Overrated? I don't know if I'd use that word, but I get the impression a lot of people on this forum think he just games away from becoming a version of 'prime of his career Jonathan Toews'. Might he be that eventually? Maybe, maybe not. Will he have a better year in terms of offensive production this year compared to last year? Hopefully. Does he have the potential to be a great leader/captain? It looks like it. But none of those things are sure bets, and certainly it would be foolish to expect them this year. As much as people don't think guys like Okposo and Girgensons are great players, it is players like that who should be leaned on for any type of 'leadership' that is needed. Those guys seem pretty smart too, so I'm sure they could work with and 'bring along' Cozens into the leadership group as the season goes by. And as for scoring production....if Cozens gives you 20 goals and 50 points then great, but if he plays a full season and gives you 10 goals and 30-35 points don't worry about it and don't think of it as a failure on his part. I just don't think you can expect him to be a leader/producer that carries this team on his back (or anywhere close to that) for a couple years yet. Edited August 23, 2021 by mjd1001 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, jsb said: Cozens has to be the most overrated 13 point scorer who didn't score a point in his final 8 games that has ever existed on a Sabres roster. I like the kid myself but holy cow are you in for a letdown IMO. Let him prove himself before we hand the crown to him. Does he have potential to be a leader, I hope so but to put that burden on a kid who hasn't done jack squat yet in his career is mind boggling to me. What? I'm not the one who did that. I asked him what we should expect as evidence of the thing he asked me to look for, and that's one of the things he said. I happen to agree with keeping the expectations for him reasonable. It's why I wanted another centre brought in. Edited August 23, 2021 by Thorny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 24 minutes ago, jsb said: Cozens has to be the most overrated 13 point scorer who didn't score a point in his final 8 games that has ever existed on a Sabres roster. I like the kid myself but holy cow are you in for a letdown IMO. Let him prove himself before we hand the crown to him. Does he have potential to be a leader, I hope so but to put that burden on a kid who hasn't done jack squat yet in his career is mind boggling to me. The problem with this is that none of us are the ones doing the anointing, it's the Sabres front office. If they do finally get around to trading Eichel there is little doubt that they're pinning this team's future success on Cozens. They are choosing him over Jack to be the #1 guy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 37 minutes ago, jsb said: Cozens has to be the most overrated 13 point scorer who didn't score a point in his final 8 games that has ever existed on a Sabres roster. I like the kid myself but holy cow are you in for a letdown IMO. Let him prove himself before we hand the crown to him. Does he have potential to be a leader, I hope so but to put that burden on a kid who hasn't done jack squat yet in his career is mind boggling to me. Agree. Fans need to give this guy some time yet. I'm optimistic he'll be a good NHL player but we're going to wait a bit to even begin to evaluate how good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mjd1001 said: I agree with you. Overrated? I don't know if I'd use that word, but I get the impression a lot of people on this forum think he just games away from becoming a version of 'prime of his career Jonathan Toews'. Might he be that eventually? Maybe, maybe not. Will he have a better year in terms of offensive production this year compared to last year? Hopefully. Does he have the potential to be a great leader/captain? It looks like it. But none of those things are sure bets, and certainly it would be foolish to expect them this year. As much as people don't think guys like Okposo and Girgensons are great players, it is players like that who should be leaned on for any type of 'leadership' that is needed. Those guys seem pretty smart too, so I'm sure they could work with and 'bring along' Cozens into the leadership group as the season goes by. And as for scoring production....if Cozens gives you 20 goals and 50 points then great, but if he plays a full season and gives you 10 goals and 30-35 points don't worry about it and don't think of it as a failure on his part. I just don't think you can expect him to be a leader/producer that carries this team on his back (or anywhere close to that) for a couple years yet. How does having a positive opinion of a player become overrated and "a few games away from greatness?" All I'm saying is Cozens has leadership DNA. I do agree that Okposo and Girgs will contribute. Zemgus has been the forgotten Sabre. I'm curious to see how he'll look after that injury. Edited August 23, 2021 by PromoTheRobot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 47 minutes ago, darksabre said: The problem with this is that none of us are the ones doing the anointing, it's the Sabres front office. If they do finally get around to trading Eichel there is little doubt that they're pinning this team's future success on Cozens. They are choosing him over Jack to be the #1 guy. Disagree with this. They are choosing a top 3 pick this year over Jack to be their Kane, while Cozens, Dahlin and Mittelstadt are their Toews, Keith and Sharp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 23, 2021 Report Share Posted August 23, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Zemgus has been the forgotten Sabre. I'm curious to see hoe he'll look after that injury. From what I understand, Zemgus having a girlfriend in a relationship, I don't think he'll he hoe-ing around as much as the younger members of the team will be. OMG I think Inkman has too much influence on me!!! Edited August 23, 2021 by jsb 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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