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Pretend GM: If you could get a Lindros-like haul for Dahlin, would you do it?

Pretend GM: If you could get a Lindros-like haul for Dahlin, would you do it?  

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  1. 1. If you could get a Lindros-like haul for Dahlin, would you do it?

    • Yes
      24
    • No
      18


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So here's the thing.  The Sabs have this "best defenseman since Denis Potvin" hanging around, but they also have a LOT of needs.  Lindros was traded for Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall, Duchene, and Kerry Huffman, as well as $15M in cash.  The Sabres don't need the cash, so let's pretend that $15M becomes another player or a prospect or something.

 

Edited by Eleven

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Yes.  We need critical mass of good NHL players.

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Hell yeah. That haul is absolutely absurd. 

Would I trade Dahlin for what he'd likely get? Probably not, but I'd have to see what the offers are.

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31 minutes ago, Eleven said:

So here's the thing.  The Sabs have this "best defenseman since Denis Potvin" hanging around, but they also have a LOT of needs.  Lindros was traded for Forsberg, Ricci, Hextall, Duchene, and Mike Huffman, as well as $15M in cash.  The Sabres don't need the cash, so let's pretend that $15M becomes another player or a prospect or something.

 

Well, if you knew you were getting someone as good as Forsberg, then yes.

The problem is, if you get another 'top-5' pick in return...are you getting Forsberg? Or Pat Faloon.  If you are getting that 'haul', you didn't know what Forsberg would turn into.  With tht in mind...No, I wouldn't do it.

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Yeah, I'd do it. I don't think Elite Defensemen are as important to winning as an abundance of good forwards. Everything flows through the forward corps, including defense.

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I'm going to amend my previous statement - I don't really know what the perception of Forsberg or those other players were at the time of the trade. 

Could Eleven, or someone else, do their best to recreate an equivalent-value group of players from a team today? 

@Taro T, @dudacek ? 

Edited by Randall Flagg

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If you are getting the exact equivalent of the players in that trade, then yes, because Forsberg alone was better than Lindros, but if you are getting a bunch of random pieces then it depends, because it could turn out great or terribly.

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That deal took Quebec to a new level and set the stage for them to win the Cup in Denver.

The thing is, they also had Sakic, Owen Nolan, and Mats Sundin, all on the rise!  We'll never know what exact role the trade played in the full picture.

However, if we could get a whole bunch of really high quality assets and it takes us to a level where we can win a Cup, who wouldn't do it?

Another question: is Dahlin still on track to become the next Bobby Orr?  

Will he attain his full potential, in Buffalo?

If those answers are "NO" the Lindros type trade makes more sense.

 

 

 

 

 

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Does anyone have the patience to explore a couple branches down the trade tree on that one?  Outside of Forsberg and Ricci, the rest didn't really spend much time with Quebec/Colorado (especially this Mike Huffman character, no clue who that is 😉 ). 

And then there was the whole fiasco where they also traded Lindros at the same time to the Rags.  It's too bad we can never know how things would have turned out if that one went through instead.  Maybe Lindros doesn't get his bell rung and he plays a full career.

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9 minutes ago, shrader said:

(especially this Mike Huffman character, no clue who that is

Fixed it.

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I remember this exact scenario being brought up months ago in another thread here but my answer will be  basically the same.

If you get the same return Quebec did then yes. But you could also get a ROR return as well.

And we all know how well that worked out. Which return do you think Jbots could get? haha

Also gotta remember that even after Quebec  made that deal, it wasnt until 5 years later & after they moved across the continent to another city that they were able to win a Cup.

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I think I would have to do the trade...the return was huge and they filled lots of roster holes instead of taking just one guy.  I loved Lindros but that return was unbelievable.

Ricci was a young, point per game center

Duchene was a mid 20's point per game defenseman

Simon was still in the OHL, but was a big time prospect

Forsberg played in Sweden for two years after the trade and then became an instant star once he hit the NHL

Huffman and Hextall were throw ins to fill roster spots.

Nords also recieved the next two first round picks which became Nolan Baumgartner and Jocelyn Thibault, (who was latraded three years later to get Patrick Roy)

 

 

Edited by sweetlou

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2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Well, if you knew you were getting someone as good as Forsberg, then yes.

The problem is, if you get another 'top-5' pick in return...are you getting Forsberg? Or Pat Faloon.  If you are getting that 'haul', you didn't know what Forsberg would turn into.  With tht in mind...No, I wouldn't do it.

 

2 hours ago, Curt said:

If you are getting the exact equivalent of the players in that trade, then yes, because Forsberg alone was better than Lindros, but if you are getting a bunch of random pieces then it depends, because it could turn out great or terribly.

This is the key question IMHO.  If you know you're getting someone as good as Forsberg -- one of the 10 best players I have ever seen -- then you seriously consider it.  If it's a bunch of high picks and prospects, then no thanks.

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If one of the players coming back is a sure fire HoF'er like Forsberg, I wouldn't even care what else is coming back.  I'd make the deal in a heartbeat.

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10 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

I think I would have to do the trade...the return was huge and they filled lots of roster holes instead of taking just one guy.  I loved Lindros but that return was unbelievable.

Ricci was a young, point per game center

Duchene was a mid 20's point per game defenseman

Simon was still in the OHL, but was a big time prospect

Forsberg played in Sweden for two years after the trade and then became an instant star once he hit the NHL

Huffman and Hextall were throw ins to fill roster spots.

Nords also recieved the next two first round picks which became Nolan Baumgartner and Jocelyn Thibault, (who was latraded three years later to get Patrick Roy)

 

 

This is the kind of thing I was looking for. 

Ricci wasn't quite a point per game player, but he had nice production before going to Quebec. His first two years his stat lines were:ricci.thumb.PNG.9482eafb15c259db30c2463c6ab76169.PNG
that's Games, goals, assists, points, PIM, plus minus. The season before the trade, Ricci was 120th in NHL scoring, but apparently was seen as a nice young player.


Duchesne looks even better than you remember:
duchesne.thumb.PNG.2a899cdbab024f7bd518e89ff38df8d8.PNG
A top five Norris finish earlier in his career, in his prime, coming off of five straight seasons over 50 points. He was 16th in defensive points per game in 91/92. He was 6th a few seasons prior. 

We'll say that Forsberg was viewed similar to how, maybe, Barkov was viewed had Barkov stayed in Finland? I know Forsberg eventually ended up becoming something of a legend, but we'll give him Barkov-level clout pre-NHL for the purpose of this exercise. 

Hextall: This was a pretty good goalie, about to enter his prime, right?

Huffman: The low-scoring defenseman that I think lou is referring to

Simon: a nice prospect, nothing crazy.

First round pick, cash. 

So, would a comparable trade be something like:

Dahlin to Vancouver for Gaudette (Ricci), Horvat (forward Duchesne), Brock Boeser (similar value to Forsberg pre-NHL?), Markstrom, Stetcher, a prospect, and a first rounder? 

Dahlin to Tampa for Johnson (Ricci), McDonagh (Duchesne), Cirelli (Forsberg, less value but NHL proven), pretend they have a good goalie to give us, Coburn, a prospect, and a first rounder?

Dahlin to Carolina for Staal (Ricci), Pesce (Duchesne), Svechnikov (Forsberg), Mrazek, Gardiner, and a 1st? 

Dahlin to Colorado for Compher (Ricci), Rantanen (Duchesne), Makar (Forsberg), Grubauer, Zadorov and a 1st?

These trades may be way off in comparison, but I'd make them all, and I don't think Dahlin would fetch anywhere near those returns. 
 

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17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Hextall: This was a pretty good goalie, about to enter his prime, right?

He had already won a Vezina, come second in Calder voting, and carried a team to a Stanley Cup Final Game 7 against the Oilers.  He was in his prime and was practically a star.  I think any comparison has to have a very solid starting goalie coming back in return.

Edited by Eleven
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2 hours ago, Cascade Youth said:

I’d be concerned about any haul which Botts & Co. evaluated.

Oh absolutely.  That's why I'm asking you all and not him.  Well, also, I don't have a way to reach him.

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4 hours ago, Weave said:

Yes.  We need critical mass of good NHL players.

I’ll go so far as to say I don’t need an all star coming back to make this trade.  A youngish good 2C, 2RW, top 4 d man, starting goalie, and an actual good prospect or two could really sway me.  Those additions would be game changers overall.

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59 minutes ago, Weave said:

I’ll go so far as to say I don’t need an all star coming back to make this trade.  A youngish good 2C, 2RW, top 4 d man, starting goalie, and an actual good prospect or two could really sway me.  Those additions would be game changers overall.

Oh, hells yes.

Problem being: This is a case of a bird in the hand, etc.

We know the team has an elite young defenseman ... prospect (?!). 

Wait. Do we know that?

What were we talking about?

Working from home makes my brain weird.

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37 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Oh, hells yes.

Problem being: This is a case of a bird in the hand, etc.

We know the team has an elite young defenseman ... prospect (?!). 

Wait. Do we know that?

What were we talking about?

Working from home makes my brain weird.

That would be attributed to That Aud Smell.....it couldn't possibly be related to the thoughts of "how to fix the Sabres roster", no way in heck.

Edited by MakeSabresGrr8Again
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47 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Oh, hells yes.

Problem being: This is a case of a bird in the hand, etc.

We know the team has an elite young defenseman ... prospect (?!). 

Wait. Do we know that?

What were we talking about?

Working from home makes my brain weird.

IMO the prospects are the least important part of that package.  We'd be trading a future all star for every roster gap this team has.  And it has quite a few.  IMO totally worth it.

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The learned will add ..

1). Forsberg was a sixth over all viewed as over drafted at the time.  He put in two to sasons with MODO while a Flyer prospect where he excelld.  He’d yet to play an NHL game at the time of the trade.

2).  Ricci had two NHL seasons at 45 or so points per.  20/25 guy.   I thought he could be the best Flyer in the trade.

3). Duchesne was mid career and put up some big numbers (40 to 75 pt) earlier in his career while in LA with high scoring teams on defense!

4).  Huffman was a 4/6 defenseman.

5)   Hextall was a proven winner on some good Flyer team, mid career.  His numbers were “meh”, but that was a different era.

I thought Que fleeced Philly even before Forsberg became an all time great.

Edited by Neo
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Dahlin for Scheifele and a 2021 1st, Not top 10 protected, 2022 2nd. Yea. I’d do that.

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At the time of the trade:

Ricci was a highly-touted former top-5 draft pick, a two-way Centre about to enter his 3rd year -> PL Dubois

Forsberg was a former top-10 pick, an elite junior yet to play pro, a centre with an edge and a complete game, highly-regarded but not a consensus franchise player -> Dylan Cozens

Hextall was a legitimate #1 goalie in his prime, coming off two disappointing years -> Freddie Anderson? Martin Jones? Can’t really find a current guy between those two.

Huffman was just a guy, a mostly disappointing former late 1st round two-way D who had just finished his first full year in the NHL after bouncing back and forth from the minors for a few years -> Mirco Mueller

Simon was a pretty well-regarded power forward prospect (at a time when they were more valued) about to turn pro -> maybe Max Jones? or Nick Ritchie two or three years ago?

Duchesne was a proven offensive defenceman in his prime, bad defensively, but he put up a ton of points -> Tyson Barrie

 

It was an absolutely ridiculous haul then, even if Duchesne, Hextall and Ricci ended up disappointing somewhat, made even better by what Forsberg became.

Of course you do it.

Edited by dudacek
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