Botterill's Drafting in Regards to Size and Physicality

[LGR4GM]

... 

48 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

The main issue I have with Botterill's drafting strategy is the type of player he targets.  Yes, he might target talent and BPA's, but what I think is missing are prospects that have more natural grit, tenacity and maybe size.  He is drafting players who might help Buffalo "get into" to the playoffs, but I question if those players can "win" in the more brutal and physical playoff season.  Yes, some smaller guys can also play tenaciously and get physical, but I don't think I see much of that in our system.  Instead I see softer players who are more prone to avoiding vs initiating contact, which is needed in playoff hockey.

 

43 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Nylander, Borgen, Samuelson are not small, Pekar has tenacity similar traits in others.  It appears he looks for good skaters that have drive.. are motivated.  I know, Nylander wasnt his, but I am seeing a trends... he likes guys who can skate, will work and are motivated to take the next step.

Grit, Tenacity, and Size. How should they be viewed at the draft?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

... 

???

[dudacek]

Looks to me like Botteril favours self-motivated athletes that play the game with pace.

[stuuuuuuuuu]

You can't teach size....some players can develop grit and tenacity once they realize that they wont make it without.  These are a part of the equation but, a player can have all of the grit in the world and if they're not able to skate, pass and shoot at the NHL level they wont make it.  A softee with elite hands or shot at least has a chance to make it and can maybe up their grit quotient.

[dudacek]

What happened to the Botterill CHL thread?

[PerreaultForever]

He seems to favor Europeans especially in later rounds. I'm ok with that as there are sometimes late developing or overlooked sleepers in those rounds. Lots of good Europeans in the league that were later round picks. Overall he seems to be following the Pittsburgh model and does favor speed and skill over size and grit but Cozens was a welcome change there as he could be a true power forward if developed properly. 

I would suspect JBot's thinking is we start with basically nada, make us fast and skillful first, and then when the only critique of our team is that we are good but lack toughness then he will add grit (which in general is easier and cheaper to find). We have to get good first though.

It's not my view, I'd go the other way around but he's the one with the job, and that's the plan.

So far, I think his drafting seems ok. His trades and free agency moves not so much. Fingers crossed that changes come July.

[pi2000]

[Beer]

Love a good dead horse beating gif

Edited June 25, 2019 by Beer

[Kruppstahl]

Anyone who just watched the NHL playoffs should be aware that this is not an either/or type of debate.

NHL playoff hockey is a physical war and if you are not ultra competitive and tenacious, AND with lots of talent, you won't win the Cup.

You need both and I can't think of a recent Cup winner that didn't have both.

 

[North Buffalo]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

... 

 

Grit, Tenacity, and Size. How should they be viewed at the draft?

Lacking more than one should be disqualifying and the smaller you are the more of the other two you need.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Everything is balance.  One of the reason I wanted Cozens is because he was a physical player, has size, was fast and has excellent O skills.  He is the entire package.  Maybe not the high end skill of Jack or Sam, but a perfect 2nd line center.  Potentially a home grown faster ROR without the attitude.

In reading about Cozens, there was a similar trait to Mitts that could work well together.  Both are known for wanting to direct O down the middle aka get pucks to the net.  This is trait we have lacked for years and if these two can grow together we may have a very very dangerous 2nd line in a few years.  Jbot's job right now is to bridge that gap.

I believe that Jbot wanted Thompson in the ROR deal to add size to our lineup.  I know many here are down on TT for good reason, but he is 21, 6'6", skates well for a giant.  We might not see what TT can become until 23-24 as his body fills out, but I still believe he has the potential to be a strong 3rd line Power Forward and PP net from presence, scoring 20 goals + a year in his prime.  

Jbot also added Pekar and Samuelsson in 2018's draft.  Prospect holdovers Borgen, and Brett Murray bring the physical element as well.

@LGR4GM Jbot has a vision on what he wants to this roster to look like long-term.  He doesn't mind adding small fast skill players, but he is certainly well aware that to succeed in the playoffs you need some physical players and I think we are beginning to see that aspect of the plan as well.  

I like the Plan, but now he has to execute to get us competitive asap and lower TT, Cozens, Pekar and Borgen to develop properly in a winning environment. 

[WildCard]

23 hours ago, dudacek said:

Looks to me like Botteril favours self-motivated athletes that play the game with pace.

Sounds a lot like McBean

16 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

Anyone who just watched the NHL playoffs should be aware that this is not an either/or type of debate.

NHL playoff hockey is a physical war and if you are not ultra competitive and tenacious, AND with lots of talent, you won't win the Cup.

You need both and I can't think of a recent Cup winner that didn't have both.

 

Johnny Gaudreau got absolutely pushed around, dominated, and frustrated in the 1st round 

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Everything is balance.  One of the reason I wanted Cozens is because he was a physical player, has size, was fast and has excellent O skills.  He is the entire package.  Maybe not the high end skill of Jack or Sam, but a perfect 2nd line center.  Potentially a home grown faster ROR without the attitude.

In reading about Cozens, there was a similar trait to Mitts that could work well together.  Both are known for wanting to direct O down the middle aka get pucks to the net.  This is trait we have lacked for years and if these two can grow together we may have a very very dangerous 2nd line in a few years.  Jbot's job right now is to bridge that gap.

I believe that Jbot wanted Thompson in the ROR deal to add size to our lineup.  I know many here are down on TT for good reason, but he is 21, 6'6", skates well for a giant.  We might not see what TT can become until 23-24 as his body fills out, but I still believe he has the potential to be a strong 3rd line Power Forward and PP net from presence, scoring 20 goals + a year in his prime.  

Jbot also added Pekar and Samuelsson in 2018's draft.  Prospect holdovers Borgen, and Brett Murray bring the physical element as well.

@LGR4GM Jbot has a vision on what he wants to this roster to look like long-term.  He doesn't mind adding small fast skill players, but he is certainly well aware that to succeed in the playoffs you need some physical players and I think we are beginning to see that aspect of the plan as well.  

I like the Plan, but now he has to execute to get us competitive asap and lower TT, Cozens, Pekar and Borgen to develop properly in a winning environment. 

2 things.

A) Cozens may not have the high end skills of Jack or the vision of Reinhart but the way you word it makes it sound like he is a lesser player. Lesser than Eichel, yes. He is different than Reinhart though and those 2 together would be very good. I don't want anyone to think that Cozens isn't in or above that Reinhart tier (60ish point player). 

B) Small fast and "some physical" players are not mutually exclusive. Robertson and Hoglander are very physical players. I think the important part is tenacity. Botterill wants tenacious players and he values size in that regards. He can do whatever he wants, as was pointed out to me multiple times last week, I am not the gm. So whatever Botterill wants to do he can do. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

2 things.

A) Cozens may not have the high end skills of Jack or the vision of Reinhart but the way you word it makes it sound like he is a lesser player. Lesser than Eichel, yes. He is different than Reinhart though and those 2 together would be very good. I don't want anyone to think that Cozens isn't in or above that Reinhart tier (60ish point player). 

B) Small fast and "some physical" players are not mutually exclusive. Robertson and Hoglander are very physical players. I think the important part is tenacity. Botterill wants tenacious players and he values size in that regards. He can do whatever he wants, as was pointed out to me multiple times last week, I am not the gm. So whatever Botterill wants to do he can do. 

I agree on the size aspect.  You can be small and tenacious and I think Jbot recognizes that as well.  I see that in Olofsson's game and even Skinner.  Pekar is no Jolly Green Giant.  

As to Cozens, i don't think he is a lesser player then Reinhart, but I don't think he has Reinhart's hands or his elite playmaking skill.  However He brings a more complete package.  He is bigger, faster, more physical with high end IQ and Hands and already plays a 200 ft game.  He is a top 6 forward and could eventually reach 70-80 pts. I can see him eventually replacing Sam as the next front presence on the 1st PP, freeing Sam to create.  

Like I said in the Cozens thread, Cozens was the player I wanted when I first looked at the draft back in March and I am thrilled he is now a Sabre.  

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

59 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

2 things.

A) Cozens may not have the high end skills of Jack or the vision of Reinhart but the way you word it makes it sound like he is a lesser player. Lesser than Eichel, yes. He is different than Reinhart though and those 2 together would be very good. I don't want anyone to think that Cozens isn't in or above that Reinhart tier (60ish point player). 

B) Small fast and "some physical" players are not mutually exclusive. Robertson and Hoglander are very physical players. I think the important part is tenacity. Botterill wants tenacious players and he values size in that regards. He can do whatever he wants, as was pointed out to me multiple times last week, I am not the gm. So whatever Botterill wants to do he can do. 

Whenever I see this my 1st thought is....Brendan Gallagher. Absolutely love the player.

[Carmel Corn]

Would love to see somebody who reminds me of Michael Peca.  Small in stature, but played (and hit) above his weight class.

[Randall Flagg]

We should be grateful if Dylan Cozens becomes the NHLer that Sam is/will continue developing into

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

We should be grateful if Dylan Cozens becomes the NHLer that Sam is/will continue developing into

Good point.

Getting a 1st line winger with this pick about 3-4 years from now would fit in perfectly with Skinner declining to a 2nd line winger.

Which would be better for the Sabres best case:

1. Cozens becomes a true 1RW

or

2. Cozens becomes a true 2C in the O'Reolly mold that can fill in at 1C when necessary?

And what do people think the odds are he reaches either / both of these?

[nfreeman]

14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

We should be grateful if Dylan Cozens becomes the NHLer that Sam is/will continue developing into

Apples and oranges, innit?

 

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Good point.

Getting a 1st line winger with this pick about 3-4 years from now would fit in perfectly with Skinner declining to a 2nd line winger.

Which would be better for the Sabres best case:

1. Cozens becomes a true 1RW

or

2. Cozens becomes a true 2C in the O'Reolly mold that can fill in at 1C when necessary?

And what do people think the odds are he reaches either / both of these?

I would prefer option 2, in part because a really good #2C can usually flex to #1 winger.

As for odds -- I won't pretend to know.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Apples and oranges, innit?

 

I would prefer option 2, in part because a really good #2C can usually flex to #1 winger.

As for odds -- I won't pretend to know.

Stylistically yes, but I just mean that if he hits Sam's level of overall NHL effectiveness, that is an objective success story for any draft slot in the back half of the top 10 and we shouldn't assume it will happen

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I really don't think that phyisicality is a real word.

[Curt]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physicality

[inkman]

19 minutes ago, Curtisp5286 said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physicality

It'll always have a negative connotation within my brain. It's just an awkward sounding word. Sports announcers jizz themselves using this word 20 times every game. 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Good point.

Getting a 1st line winger with this pick about 3-4 years from now would fit in perfectly with Skinner declining to a 2nd line winger.

Which would be better for the Sabres best case:

1. Cozens becomes a true 1RW

or

2. Cozens becomes a true 2C in the O'Reolly mold that can fill in at 1C when necessary?

And what do people think the odds are he reaches either / both of these?

Option 2, easily. Much more valuable position. 

[pi2000]

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

We should be grateful if Dylan Cozens becomes the NHLer that Sam is/will continue developing into

Ultimately I see him as a faster, slighty better skating Patrick Berglund.     He's not a high end skill guy.   His hockey IQ isn't next level.  He's not going to wow you with his hands. However, he seems like he works hard, has A+ character and plays a 200ft game.     

TBH, I liked Zegras better as a prospect, I see lot's of Jason Spezza in him... but maybe a guy like Cozens is more of what Buffalo needs in their lineup?    Just tough to pass on a higher skilled player.   We'll see how they develop.