Kane traded to San Jose for a Cond. ‘19 1st, Dan O’ Regan and Conditional 4th

[darksabre]

For the life of me, I don't understand this line of thinking.  As in, there are positions people take here that I understand, but disagree with. Even vehemently. This one, I just don't understand. Cannot get my head wrapped around it.

It's some kind of weird trope about not looking tough or getting the reputation as a pushover within the NHL GM community. Apparently, not trading Kane would put the rest of the NHL on notice or something. You don't mess with the J-Bot. He's one baaaaaaad mother-(SHUT YO MOUTH).

[Gramps]

For the life of me, I don't understand this line of thinking.  As in, there are positions people take here that I understand, but disagree with. Even vehemently. This one, I just don't understand. Cannot get my head wrapped around it.

 

Me either - SJ won't deal with GMJB in the future, Kane gets pissed he's not playing for a Cup contender and won't resign with us if even offered. 

[SDS]

Botts got played.  Ticking clock and he blinked.  a 2019 lottery protected pick sux.  2020 pick?  two years away? Terrible deal.  

 

 

Jesus, kill me now

 

Or our GM messed up. Color me surprised that a rookie Buffalo GM got schooled at a trade deadline

 

 

So I'm supposed to cut him slack for a garbage trade because he didn't make other garbage trades?

 

 

Ugh, what an absolutely terrible deal. Can we please just get a competent GM for once?

 

 

Honestly for that price Jbot should have been willing to walk away. A second 2 drafts from now, an AHL player, and a 4th THREE drafts from now? Bye.

 

 

First, the way the trade was originally articulated was misleading.

 

It's a 2019 pick, not 2018.  It's a conditional second, not a conditional first.

 

This is just a bad deal.  Botterill was had.

 

 

Yeah a second in 2 years is basically useless. I hope JB gets torn alive in the post-deadline interview

 

 

Has JB done anything good as the GM?

 

Time to question if he was ever up to the challenge

 

 

There is some truth to this, except for Kane. He was our one asset and now he is gone for basically nothing.

 

I can accept the offers weren’t great, but to not get a real prospect or even a pick this year is inexcusable

 

 

This post seems like a strawman itself. I haven't seen any posters present their opinions about the trade as fact. Can you clip some comments where opinions are presented as facts?

 

This continues to torment me. People see an opinion they don't like or agree with and they challenge it, asking for evidence or links or charts or whatever. "It's your opinion, not a fact!" Of course.

 

Whatever. We have to have disagreement about everything, I guess. Botterill got fleeced. He got fleeced so bad that the most reasonable opinion comes from Eleven: it would have been worth more to Botterill to tell San Jose to shove off.

 

Just stuff from the 1st 7 pages. I stopped looking after that. You may assert that "Botterill was fleeced" is an opinion. I read such comments as more statements of facts. None of the surrounding language qualifies those statements. Beingly crushingly disappointed in the return is not the same thing as stating Botterill was fleeced/had.

[Iron Crotch]

For over a decade we've been trying to spin every transaction as a positive move for the Sabres. And, we've been neck-and-neck with Arizona for the worst NHL franchise over that time. I'm not going to spin the Kane trade as a good deal because other GMs clearly got far more for lesser rentals. That the GM who made the lousy deal said better deals weren't out there is exactly what he would be expected to say. Maybe he isn't good at working the phones and promoting this tradeable assets? Not a single other guy got traded from this awful roster... and history tells me that I shouldn't give a Sabres GM the benefit of the doubt until they've earned it. And, our new GM thus far hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt.

[That Aud Smell]

It's some kind of weird trope about not looking tough or getting the reputation as a pushover within the NHL GM community. Apparently, not trading Kane would put the rest of the NHL on notice or something. You don't mess with the J-Bot. He's one baaaaaaad mother-(SHUT YO MOUTH).

 

Right. I just don't understand, at a fundamental level, how it could follow that you're a pushover if you make the best deal available to you, even if it's underwhelming or disappointing. 

 

It's the role of the expiring contract and the reality that the player's not returning that are at the root of my confusion. This is not really akin to a situation where Seller holds an asset (say, a piece of real property) and sells too cheaply. After deadline day, Kane was effectively worthless (or even a net negative) to this franchise. 

 

I understand the gripe that JBOTS waited too long, but also recognize that we just don't know whether there were better offers being made in December, etc. I tend to doubt it. Far more likely that suitors were waiting for other dominoes to fall before settling on Kane.

Just stuff from the 1st 7 pages. I stopped looking after that. You may assert that "Botterill was fleeced" is an opinion. I read such comments as more statements of facts. None of the surrounding language qualifies those statements. Beingly crushingly disappointed in the return is not the same thing as stating Botterill was fleeced/had.

 

It's a sports message board, boss. Everything's an opinion. Or, in more modern parlance, a take. I don't think things would be improved if we were to add "IMO" to every assertion made.

[WildCard]

For over a decade we've been trying to spin every transaction as a positive move for the Sabres. And, we've been neck-and-neck with Arizona for the worst NHL franchise over that time. I'm not going to spin the Kane trade as a good deal because other GMs clearly got far more for lesser rentals. That the GM who made the lousy deal said better deals weren't out there is exactly what he would be expected to say. Maybe he isn't good at working the phones and promoting this tradeable assets? Not a single other guy got traded from this awful roster... and history tells me that I shouldn't give a Sabres GM the benefit of the doubt until they've earned it. And, our new GM thus far hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed. For 6 months all we've heard and seen is he's at the height of the trade deadline list, and how much he'll go for. Then we get a 3rd liner, likely a 2nd round pick, and a 4th? In what world is that not a disappointing haul?

[That Aud Smell]

For over a decade we've been trying to spin every transaction as a positive move for the Sabres. And, we've been neck-and-neck with Arizona for the worst NHL franchise over that time. I'm not going to spin the Kane trade as a good deal because other GMs clearly got far more for lesser rentals. That the GM who made the lousy deal said better deals weren't out there is exactly what he would be expected to say. Maybe he isn't good at working the phones and promoting this tradeable assets? Not a single other guy got traded from this awful roster... and history tells me that I shouldn't give a Sabres GM the benefit of the doubt until they've earned it. And, our new GM thus far hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

I am unclear on this. Where's Flagg with a comprehensive post on the subject?

[Doohickie]

The deal is this:  We were sellers.  Again.  And didn't even sell much.

 

At some in the (near or distant) future, the Sabres will again be buyers.  Then we'll all be happier, simply because instead of investing in the future the Sabres will be building on the present.  And then we'll be all happy when we get a Brad Boyes who scores a goal in his first game as a Sabre, before settling into the customary disappointment.

[DarthEbriate]

Thanks, Evander for your play these past couple seasons! It’s not your fault GMTM overpaid for you or that no other GMs wanted to give a lot for you as a rental this season. It’s ok though because one of those same GMs will give you $6+/5 Years on July 1. It would have been nice to extend you last off-season at a decent 2nd-line salary (if you and your agent were having it), but oh well.

You were one of our most entertaining players while here. Fast, brash, hard-checking, and even some head-scratching and untimely penalties, but also that time you punched out the same guy three times in one game, or that OT lob to Jack. Those were fun.

Now, go earn that payday. And hopefully, turn that pick into a 1 for us. May the Force be with you.

[darksabre]

Right. I just don't understand, at a fundamental level, how it could follow that you're a pushover if you make the best deal available to you, even if it's underwhelming or disappointing. 

 

It's the role of the expiring contract and the reality that the player's not returning that are at the root of my confusion. This is not really akin to a situation where Seller holds an asset (say, a piece of real property) and sells too cheaply. After deadline day, Kane was effectively worthless (or even a net negative) to this franchise. 

 

I understand the gripe that JBOTS waited too long, but also recognize that we just don't know whether there were better offers being made in December, etc. I tend to doubt it. Far more likely that suitors were waiting for other dominoes to fall before settling on Kane.

 

It's a sports message board, boss. Everything's an opinion. Or, in more modern parlance, a take. I don't think things would be improved if we were to add "IMO" to every assertion made.

Because you can't ever lose. Winners win, gosh darnit. And if you can't win, then don't even play. But if you don't play, you're also a loser. Got it?

[Radar]

Agreed. For 6 months all we've heard and seen is he's at the height of the trade deadline list, and how much he'll go for. Then we get a 3rd liner, likely a 2nd round pick, and a 4th? In what world is that not a disappointing haul?

Maybe you were hearing this value assessment from people on boards like this or media people who don't know anymore than the guy on the street. So any disappointment should be with those people who don't know anymore than the rest of us but we're sure they did.

[Gramps]

Maybe you were hearing this value assessment from people on boards like this or media people who don't know anymore than the guy on the street. So any disappointment should be with those people who don't know anymore than the rest of us but we're sure they did.

 

Exactly, find me a quote from GMJB where he said the only acceptable return for Kane was a 1st and 2nd rounder, a current NHL player, and a good prospect. All media speculation. 

[WildCard]

Exactly, find me a quote from GMJB where he said the only acceptable return for Kane was a 1st and 2nd rounder, a current NHL player, and a good prospect. All media speculation. 

That was his asking price for months and it was reported by literally every reputable reporter in the hockey world, and not once refuted by anyone else

[nfreeman]

Thanks, Evander for your play these past couple seasons! It’s not your fault GMTM overpaid for you or that no other GMs wanted to give a lot for you as a rental this season. It’s ok though because one of those same GMs will give you $6+/5 Years on July 1. It would have been nice to extend you last off-season at a decent 2nd-line salary (if you and your agent were having it), but oh well.

You were one of our most entertaining players while here. Fast, brash, hard-checking, and even some head-scratching and untimely penalties, but also that time you punched out the same guy three times in one game, or that OT lob to Jack. Those were fun.

Now, go earn that payday. And hopefully, turn that pick into a 1 for us. May the Force be with you.

 

Very nice.  I too wish him well.

[carpandean]

Agreed. For 6 months all we've heard and seen is he's at the height of the trade deadline list, and how much he'll go for. Then we get a 3rd liner, likely a 2nd round pick, and a 4th? In what world is that not a disappointing haul?

 

Everyone agrees it's disappointing.  Even those who expected very little return are disappointed because they hoped they might be wrong, which would have been good for the franchise.  Nobody is saying, "Wow!  This is an awesome haul!"

 

We may never know whether it was GMJB's failure or just an overestimation of how much GMs would value his services, given his past.  We will need more data before we can evaluate GMJB (hard to detect patterns with so few data points.)  This certainly isn't something that paints him in a good light, but there is at least a reasonable alternative explanation for what happened.

[Radar]

That was his asking price for months and it was reported by literally every reputable reporter in the hockey world, and not once refuted by anyone else

With all do respect you're still not quoting any reliable source only sports radio types and uninformed fans like you and I.

[pi2000]

I, for one, am happy with the outcome.   GMJB didn't panic and sell off underperforming assets, or picks or prospects... just to make a splash.     His critique of the coaching staff was nice to hear.    It's evident that he has a decent grasp of what ails this team.  I have some renewed faith in his ability to right the ship.     

 

As for Kane, yeah, to the casual fan it's a disappointing return.    I thought some GM would panic and give up more than market value to add him to a playoff roster.    Unfortunately, through no fault of GMJBs, that didn't happen.

Edited February 27, 2018 by pi2000

[darksabre]

I, for one, am happy with the outcome.   GMJB didn't panic and sell off underperforming assets, or picks or prospects... just to make a splash.     His critique of the coaching staff was nice to hear.    It's evident that he has a decent grasp of what ails this team.  I have some renewed faith in his ability to right the ship.     

Filing this one under "posts I wouldn't expect pi to make". 

[WildCard]

With all do respect you're still not quoting any reliable source only sports radio types and uninformed fans like you and I.

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1017496

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1008240

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1007327

 

And that's just one thread I looked through

I, for one, am happy with the outcome.   GMJB didn't panic and sell off underperforming assets, or picks or prospects... just to make a splash.     His critique of the coaching staff was nice to hear.    It's evident that he has a decent grasp of what ails this team.  I have some renewed faith in his ability to right the ship.     

 

As for Kane, yeah, to the casual fan it's a disappointing return.    I thought some GM would panic and give up more than market value to add him to a playoff roster.    Unfortunately, through no fault of GMJBs, that didn't happen.

It's not just to the casual fan. Botterill was reported for months to be asking Duchene level prices for Kane

[stuuuuuuuuu]

How old were those plays in their AHL rookie years though?

Off the cuff Rene Bourque played 4 years in Wisconsin before winning the award but he could possibly be the only one.

[Trettioåtta]

The important thing that everyone is forgetting is that we traded for Eichel's friend.

 

Maybe this really is Eichel's team, and not in the way Pittsburgh is Crosby's, Edmonton is McDavid's or Washington is Ovechkin's

[pi2000]

It's not just to the casual fan. Botterill was reported for months to be asking Duchene level prices for Kane

 

As he should have.   Unfortunately, nobody took the bait.  

[Radar]

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1017496

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1008240

https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/25364-deadline-day-sabres-trade-speculation/?p=1007327

 

And that's just one thread I looked through

It's not just to the casual fan. Botterill was reported for months to be asking Duchene level prices for Kane

Did Botterill or any Sabre officials say they expected this. No. Plus even if they started with that doesn't mean they expected to get even close to that. We don't know. Do you read and trust the Enquirer about the same as trusting everything the media puts out. I said before trade deadline I thought second rounder and prospects. You should have trusted me I guess. Edited February 27, 2018 by Radar

[WildCard]

Did Botterill or any Sabre officials say they expected this. No. Plus even if they started with that doesn't mean they expected to get even close to that. We don't know. Do you read and trust the Enquirer about the same as trusting everything the media puts out.

These are the best reporters in the sport, if they're reporting something like this, for months, and it was false, don't you think Botterill would have denied it? Or, don't you think they wouldn't have even reported it? These guys wouldn't have a job if they reported falsities about organizations all the time; nobody would give them any information for disparaging them.

 

I've never known any GM in any sport to come out and say 'we want this for this' publicly. That doesn't mean multiple reports from reputable sources are incorrect

 

TSN Insiders are not the Enquirer

Edited February 27, 2018 by Jokertecken

[Weave]

Just stuff from the 1st 7 pages. I stopped looking after that. You may assert that "Botterill was fleeced" is an opinion. I read such comments as more statements of facts. None of the surrounding language qualifies those statements. Beingly crushingly disappointed in the return is not the same thing as stating Botterill was fleeced/had.

Those are all pretty much the working definition of an opinion. Are you new at this? :p