Kane traded to San Jose for a Cond. ‘19 1st, Dan O’ Regan and Conditional 4th

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Thanks, Evander for your play these past couple seasons! It’s not your fault GMTM overpaid for you or that no other GMs wanted to give a lot for you as a rental this season. It’s ok though because one of those same GMs will give you $6+/5 Years on July 1. It would have been nice to extend you last off-season at a decent 2nd-line salary (if you and your agent were having it), but oh well.

You were one of our most entertaining players while here. Fast, brash, hard-checking, and even some head-scratching and untimely penalties, but also that time you punched out the same guy three times in one game, or that OT lob to Jack. Those were fun.

Now, go earn that payday. And hopefully, turn that pick into a 1 for us. May the Force be with you.

 

Nice post.

 

Yes.  Thank you, Evander.  I enjoyed your time in Buffalo.

 

Best wishes,

 

NS

[jsb]

 

Kane was traded for what was the best offer available.  Of that, I have no doubt.  Therefore, the Sabres received enough in return to make the trade.

 

I agree with We've (and some others) in that, once again, the Sabres traded away a good player for a chance at something in the future.  That is the worst part of this whole thing.

The one thing that bothers me about the way the Sabres did this was denying ownership had anything to do with this trade. 

I think it had everything to do with this trade, yes the roster needs to be overhauled but it Kane's value around the league is so low, who is going to give him big bucks in free agency??

That doesn't make any sense. They wanted to get rid of him no matter what and I don't think a GM gives away an asset without the owner saying to get rid of him. 

 

Maybe behind the scenes there's something that hasn't come out yet so you never know but the Pegula's have their hands all over this again IMO

[That Aud Smell]

The one thing that bothers me about the way the Sabres did this was denying ownership had anything to do with this trade. 

I think it had everything to do with this trade, yes the roster needs to be overhauled but it Kane's value around the league is so low, who is going to give him big bucks in free agency??

That doesn't make any sense. They wanted to get rid of him no matter what and I don't think a GM gives away an asset without the owner saying to get rid of him. 

 

Maybe behind the scenes there's something that hasn't come out yet so you never know but the Pegula's have their hands all over this again IMO

 

I didn't listen to that give and take, but I think the denial of ownership's involvement was intended to tamp down any theory that the Pegulas wanted the guy gone because he was trouble. That the guy was traded for hockey reasons alone -- that he wasn't part of the team's future plans for hockey reasons.

[Gramps]

I didn't listen to that give and take, but I think the denial of ownership's involvement was intended to tamp down any theory that the Pegulas wanted the guy gone because he was trouble. That the guy was traded for hockey reasons alone -- that he wasn't part of the team's future plans for hockey reasons.

 

 

I think if the Pegulas wanted him gone, it would have happened last summer.

[dudacek]

If San Jose radically underpaid, why didn’t another GM tweak the deal just a tad to beat them - make the 4th a third or something?

Serious question.

 

Give me something that suggests Kane didn’t go where the market dictated.

 

I can entertain the idea that JBot potentially could have had more if he sold earlier.

 

But the idea he got played suggests collusion and that just doesn’t make sense.

[woods-racer]

I think if the Pegulas wanted him gone, it would have happened last summer.

 

Same here. 

[That Aud Smell]

I can entertain the idea that JBot potentially could have had more if he sold earlier.

 

But the idea he got played suggests collusion and that just doesn’t make sense.

 

As can I. But I've never heard anything to the effect that JBOT had a sweeter deal in December (or whenever) and passed on it in hopes of getting an even better return.

[nfreeman]

I think if the Pegulas wanted him gone, it would have happened last summer.

 

Interesting, and quite possible.

 

OTOH, it also seems quite possible to me that they were good and PO'd about Kane getting arrested right before the Sabres hosted the draft -- thus casting a pall on and overshadowing their organization, new harborside, etc. -- which was compounded by his 2nd similar legal scrape later that summer.

 

Maybe they told JBott "you can unload him whenever you think we can get the best return, but there is NFW that we are giving him a $30MM+ extension."

 

Or maybe, as JBott said yesterday, they stayed out of it completely.  I haven't seen any reports suggesting they were involved in any way.

[GASabresIUFAN]

GMs low-balled JBOT? JBOT got played?

 

Is the idea that there was some sort of conspiracy afoot?

 

I know I said it already, but I literally can't fathom the thought process that ends in these takes. This may be a function of my limited imagination, or just some cognitive road block in my brain. But I just don't get it.

 

There was an "open" market among 30 buyers (I qualify "open" because 30 is a pretty small market.) That market had supply and demand, and yielded a price.

 

 

I’m sorry about your limited imagination. Obviously you have never negotiated a contract. There is no such thing as a perfect market place. There also weren’t 30 buyers fo Kanes services with very few teams in a “guaranteed” playoff spot. Heck, even the Nasdaq is a negotiated market place, one of the most efficient markets in the world is still a negotiated market place.

 

A negotiated market never leads to a perfect market price. To many factors involved including the skills and experience of the negotiating parties. The NHL trade deadline is not even close to a efficient market. GMs want to pay as low a price as possible. Selling GMs of course want the opposite. A Buying GM will use Kane past as a negotiating point to try to get Jbot to lower his price and it ultimately worked.

 

I’m sure that every GM that kicked the tires on Kane raised the same issue. It’s not a conspiracy just a smart negotiating tactic. It probably worked because Jbot waited to long to make the deal. He can say til he is blue in the face that this was his only offer. That may or may no be true. Was it he only offer yesterday or was it the only offer since last season. What did he do or fail to do that destroyed the market for Kane? Was Jbot willing to retain some salary to get a better offer? Was Jbot willing to part with a lower draft pick to maybe convert 2019 to 2018 (DR did this in the Guadtad trade). Was Jbot willing to take a bad contact from SJ to get a higher price? If it was the only offer since his great 2016-17 season then you might be right that there was very little demand for Kane’s services. However, I don’t think that is true. I think this is a case of experienced GM’s using Kane’s past against a rookie GM with his back against the 3pm deadline. Jbot over played his hand and lost.

 

My guess had he been more flexible on his asking price or more flexible on how the deal as structured earlier in the process he may have been able to garner more offers and found a better deal in the end.

Edited February 27, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[inkman]

Personally, I think Botterill asked for far too much. I think if he scaled it down a bit and traded him earlier, we could have gotten a package somewhere between what was reported he first asked, and what we actually got

Do we know what was reported was actually what he asked for?

[WildCard]

Do we know what was reported was actually what he asked for?

It's about as concrete as you're ever going to get when dealing with something like that in the sports world. Multiple TSN reporters all listed the same price for months, and nobody ever refuted it.

[Radar]

If San Jose radically underpaid, why didn’t another GM tweak the deal just a tad to beat them - make the 4th a third or something?

Serious question.

Give me something that suggests Kane didn’t go where the market dictated.

I can entertain the idea that JBot potentially could have had more if he sold earlier.

But the idea he got played suggests collusion and that just doesn’t make sense.

Posters on these boards play fantasy games. They make suggestions and even concrete statements that just are hot air with no evidence other than what was probably the latest bar talk. This includes talk show bantering. They have an excuse because they need to fill time and stir things up so someone will listen. At this time I'm inclined to question our head coach before our GM. I still maintain this team's talent with even it's weak areas is much better than it's record.

[darksabre]

I’m sorry about your limited imagination. Obviously you have never negotiated a contract. There is no such thing as a perfect market place. There also weren’t 30 buyers fo Kanes services with very few teams in a “guaranteed” playoff spot. Heck, even the Nasdaq is a negotiated market place, one of the most efficient markets in the world is still a negotiated market place.

 

A negotiated market never leads to a perfect market price. To many factors involved including the skills and experience of the negotiating parties. The NHL trade deadline is not even close to a efficient market. GMs want to pay as low a price as possible. Selling GMs of course want the opposite. A Buying GM will use Kane past as a negotiating point to try to get Jbot to lower his price and it ultimately worked. In this stairing contest the GM that blinks first loses and Jbot blinked first.

 

I’m sure that every GM that kicked the tires on Kane raised the same issue. It’s not a conspiracy just a smart negotiating tactic. It probably worked because Jbot waited to long to make the deal. He can say til he is blue in the face that this was his only offer. That may or may no be true. Was it he only offer yesterday or was it the only offer since last season. What did he do or fail to do that destroyed the market for Kane? If it was the only offer since his great 2016-17 season then you might be right that there was very little demand for Kane’s services. However, I don’t think that is true. I think this is a case of experienced GM’s using Kane’s past against a rookie GM with his back against the 3pm deadline. Jbot over played his hand and lost. My guess had he been more flexible on his asking price earlier in the process he may have been able to garner more offers and found a better deal in the end.

Limited imagination?

 

Why not just accept the simplest, most likely, answer?

 

Why does this need to be an exercise in crafting the most outrageous scenario possible?

[IKnowPhysics]

Corey Pronman Thoughts on O’Regan

 

Daniel O'Regan, C, Buffalo (from San Jose): The initial reaction to a 24-year-old small forward who has yet to establish himself as an NHL regular will likely be pessimism, but I still have time for O'Regan. He’s a very gifted playmaker who processes the game at a high-level and has good skill with the puck. He's an agile skater but doesn't have a great top gear, which isn't ideal at his size. He works but he'll never be confused for a grinder or a great defensive forward. It's a gamble on a player with talent who hasn't forced his way into a scoring minutes role yet but was dominant in the AHL last season as a rookie. He could easily flame out on the Sabres, but O'Regan also has the skills to be a middle-six forward if he clicks.

 

Good data.

 

But when I read this. it sounds like Cody Hodgson.  Hodgson had #2 center potential and failed.  I believe O'Regan presents a lesser opportunity/chance to have success as a #2 center.  Hopefully O'Regan's work/compete is higher and his confidence is less fragile.

[WildCard]

Limited imagination?

 

Why not just accept the simplest, most likely, answer?

 

Why does this need to be an exercise in crafting the most outrageous scenario possible?

Because we're bored and our team sucks

[GASabresIUFAN]

If San Jose radically underpaid, why didn’t another GM tweak the deal just a tad to beat them - make the 4th a third or something?

Serious question.

Give me something that suggests Kane didn’t go where the market dictated.

I can entertain the idea that JBot potentially could have had more if he sold earlier.

But the idea he got played suggests collusion and that just doesn’t make sense.

That’s an easy one. The Kane deal was completed around 2:30 pm. My guess is there wasn’t enough time to use SJ’s offer to solicit other counter offers and still get in line by 3pm. This is why the bigger deals usually get done in the few days prior to the deadline or in the morning.

 

Again no collusion, no conspiracy, but smart tactics by experienced GMs

[That Aud Smell]

Obviously you have never negotiated a contract. There is no such thing as a perfect market place. There also weren’t 30 buyers fo Kanes services with very few teams in a “guaranteed” playoff spot. Even the Nasdaq is a negotiated market place.

 

Buying GMs want to pay as low a price as possible. Selling GMs of course want the opposite. A Buying GM will use Kane past as a negotiating point to try to get Jbot to lower his price and it ultimately worked. In this stairing contest the GM that blinks first loses and Jbot blinked first.

 

I’m sure that every GM that kicked the tires on Kane raised the same issue. It’s not a conspiracy just a smart negotiating tactic. It probably worked because Jbot waited to long to make the deal. He can say til he is blue in the face that this was his only offer. That may or may no be true. Was it he only offer yesterday or was it the only offer since last season. What did he do or fail to do that destroyed the market for Kane? If it was the only offer since his great 2016-17 season then you might be right that there was very little demand for Kane’s services. However, I don’t think that is true. I think this is a case of experienced GM’s using Kane’s past against a rookie GM with his back against the 3pm deadline. Jbot over played his hand and lost. My guess had he been more flexible on his asking price he may have been able to garner more offers and found a better deal in the end.

 

Do it all the time, in fact.

 

The balance of this post is fairly incomprehensible, or at least a significant moving of the goal posts of the contention you were making (or I thought you were making). 

 

I acknowledged above that the issue of whether JBOT waited too long to sell is an open one -- albeit one that we're probably never going to get to the bottom of because we have no idea whether better offers were made in December or thereabouts.

 

I can't really fault JBOT for hanging onto Kane going into the season. At that point in time, the hope had to be that the team would possibly compete for a wildcard spot. And Kane was one of the team's top wingers. 

 

Your theory on JBOT being inflexible on his asking price strikes me as strange. Even if JBOT had been getting the word out that he wanted 4 valuable picks/prospects/pieces for Kane, and even if that price was way over-blown (it would have been), that's not something that stops an interested buyer from making a deal. If a buyer is truly interested and thinks the asking price is insane, the buyer doesn't turn around, put his hands in his pockets, drop his chin, kick a stone, and shuffle off down the road. Instead, that buyer makes an offer -- maybe an offer that is as ridiculously low as the asking price is high. That is frequently, almost always in fact, how negotiations start.

 

It's about as concrete as you're ever going to get when dealing with something like that in the sports world. Multiple TSN reporters all listed the same price for months, and nobody ever refuted it.

 

To the extent an inflated asking price has any effect on setting value (and I am not sure it does), it will tend to improve value.

Good data.

 

But when I read this. it sounds like Cody Hodgson.  Hodgson had #2 center potential and failed.  I believe O'Regan presents a lesser opportunity/chance to have success as a #2 center.  Hopefully O'Regan's work/compete is higher and his confidence is less fragile.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure where this guy might fit. Could be a 'tweener. Maybe if the team ices a good third line, he could fit in there.

 

That’s an easy one. The Kane deal was completed around 2:30 pm. My guess is there wasn’t enough time to use SJ’s offer to solicit other counter offers and still get in line by 3pm. This is why the bigger deals usually get done in the few days prior to the deadline or in the morning.

 

Again no collusion, no conspiracy, but smart tactics by experienced GMs

 

San Jose's savvy tack was to wait to make a low-ball offer at 2:15 and bank on the fact that JBOT wouldn't have time to ask 2 or 3 other pending suitors whether they'd beat it?

 

[fiftyone]

That’s an easy one. The Kane deal was completed around 2:30 pm. My guess is there wasn’t enough time to use SJ’s offer to solicit other counter offers and still get in line by 3pm. This is why the bigger deals usually get done in the few days prior to the deadline or in the morning.

 

Again no collusion, no conspiracy, but smart tactics by experienced GMs

 

The Kane deal was announced at 2:30 pm, that doesn't mean the deal was negotiated at 2:30 pm. Actually, it's more probable that it was the opposite of what you're saying -- that it was negotiated earlier and JBot did shop the SJ deal around to other teams and he didn't receive a better offer.

[WildCard]

To the extent an inflated asking price has any effect on setting value (and I am not sure it does), it will tend to improve value.

If the price was that high and nobody met it, then other people at the dance found different partners and Botterill was left in the corner waiting for a faced SJ to come stumbling over 

[That Aud Smell]

The Kane deal was announced at 2:30 pm, that doesn't mean the deal was negotiated at 2:30 pm. Actually, it's more probable that it was the opposite of what you're saying -- that it was negotiated earlier and JBot did shop the SJ deal around to other teams and he didn't receive a better offer.

Good point.

[darksabre]

If the price was that high and nobody met it, then other people at the dance found different partners and Botterill was left in the corner waiting for a ###### faced SJ to come stumbling over 

"the other people found different partners"

 

Do expand. 

[That Aud Smell]

If the price was that high and nobody met it, then other people at the dance found different partners and Botterill was left in the corner waiting for a ###### faced SJ to come stumbling over

There’s something to this, in theory.

 

I’m not of a mind that the inflated asking price was ever perceived or discussed as a reality, or that a team acquired Player X over Kane because another GM was being more reasonable on price.

[R_Dudley]

Man oh man we sure do love ourselves some Sabres Hockey here.

 

I only wish the passion you all displayed for the treatise you guys have poured out here was shared by the same hockey players and team we all love to hate right now. 

 

Oh I get it but I just can't get that worked up anymore over something truly outside my ability to control that has been going on this long. 

 

 

Please carry on! 

[IKnowPhysics]

Man oh man we sure do love ourselves some Sabres Hockey here.

 

I only wish the passion you all displayed for the treatise you guys have poured out here was shared by the same hockey players and team we all love to hate right now. 

 

Oh I get it but I just can't get that worked up anymore over something truly outside my ability to control that has been going on this long. 

 

 

Please carry on! 

 

Ha.  At least 75% of the board after this trade:

 

[WildCard]

"the other people found different partners"

 

Do expand. 

There are 5 buyers when we list our price (5 is arbitrary, I don't really know). All 5 say too high. So other teams come in with different players/better offers, and now there are only 2 partners left. It becomes a buyers market