Sabres Line: Reinhart Moved Back to Top

[WildCard]

Players that carved out their place and reputation in a much slower league. Plus, the first two are among the greatest of all time. Kopitar among the best in the game today. Touch act to follow.

 

It can be done, but it's exceptionally difficult. It's the same argument with smaller players, though less so today: A smaller player CAN succeed in the NHL, but they need to be exceptionally talented. Sam's other attributes need to be busting the door down if his skating is mediocre.

Good points, can't really argue with that. 

 

Guess the questions are:

 

A) Are there 60 point players in today's NHL that are slower/smart?

 

B) Can Reinhart be a Kopitar?

 

C) Are Drasaitl/Barkov slow?

[Thorny]

A) I would think so? I have been watching a little less hockey this year, with how bad the Sabres have been. But for me, it's not just the speed, though. It's skating strength. He just seems so unbalanced. He's not just a slower skater - in fact, his straight line speed I wouldn't even call slow, more like average - he's a poor skater.

 

B) :lol:

 

C) I doubt they are much faster than Reinhart. But they are more balanced skaters, more power, better technique.

[nfreeman]

Draisaitl and Barkov are both much faster than Reino.

[dudacek]

Do you have any fear that his most lacking skill is one that's being ever magnified by the state of the league? That there's more of a focus on skating than ever before, and he's falling behind that curve?

I don't think enough thought is being given to the notion that, potentially, Sam doesn't have the raw skills to be able to overcome.

System. Linemmates. Luck. Confidence. Uncertainty. Power-Play. Am I the only one that thinks: Ability? Specifically, skating. And skating in this league.

Trends come and go.

 

John Tavares is third in scoring, Anne Kopitar ninth.

Paul Stastny, Daniel Sedin, Anthony Mantha, Leon Draisaitl, James Neal, Gabriel Landeskog, Mike Hoffman, Corey Perry, Joe Thornton, Thomas Vanek, Ryan O’Reilly - they all have a shot at 50 points this year despite less than blazing speed.

 

I have seen all kinds of players who skate at a similar level or worse than Sam who have had great careers.

Admittedly the league is trending toward speed, but I think that affects the bottom tier of players more than anyone else or the old guys who are slowing down. Generally speaking Antipins and Grigensons are getting shots ahead of Falks and larssons, while the Matt Moulsons get shown to pasture.

 

But saying the league passed Sam by at age 22 because it suddenly got faster is too simplistic for me.

Draisaitl and Barkov are both much faster than Reino.

I haven’t seen it, and I am a fan of both, particularly Barkov.

What they are is much stronger on the puck.

 

And to be clear, I am arguing only that, moving forward, Sam is more likely to be the player he was last year than the player he has been this year, and that writing him off as an NHLer over the past two months is ridiculously premature.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Mick O’Manly

[Thorny]

^ But all of those players are much better skaters than Sam. It's not just about speed. Tavares is a good skater. As is Kopitar. Non of those guys are wobbling around like Sam is out there.

[French Collection]

I like Sam and hope this helps him and the team turn a corner. He's better than this year's production.

 

It could also be a showcase stint for a trade.

[LTS]

Pouliot? Stepped right in off the Free Agent heap and surpassed Sam. Probably because he can skate. Plenty underperforming compared to expectations, but none so far as Sam, I'd wager.

 

 

If his skating has truly regressed, we are in an even worse spot with him. As the league is definitely trending faster. There is also only a much a player can do to improve their natural skating ability. Reinhart is a third year pro, what we see in his skating is what we are going to get.

 

Ahh Pouliot.. 4th overall pick in 2005.  Spent 3 years in the AHL.  Career high 36 points in a season, once with the Rangers and once with the Oilers.  Currently playing on 7th NHL team in 12 seasons.

 

Sam Reinhart, spent 0 seasons in the AHL, had 42 points in his first year and 47 points in his second year for a team that has been one of the all time worst scoring franchises in NHL history. 

 

This year?  Pouliot has 11 points and Reinhart has 11 points.  Reinhart has played with lower overall talent and STILL has as many points as Pouliot.

 

I like Pouliot, but he's a guy who has had trouble staying on ANY roster and has NEVER reached the point totals Reinhart has already.

[nfreeman]

I haven’t seen it, and I am a fan of both, particularly Barkov.

What they are is much stronger on the puck.

 

And to be clear, I am arguing only that, moving forward, Sam is more likely to be the player he was last year than the player he has been this year, and that writing him off as an NHLer over the past two months is ridiculously premature.

 

I will respectfully but emphatically disagree with respect to Draisaitl and direct you to the following, especially :23, 1:05, 1:15 and 1:43 points (and others not listed):

 

 

 

I will also disagree with respect to Barkov, although it's admittedly closer:

 

[inkman]

Bylsma used to get creamed...

Man does the English language evolve. This most definitely does imply the same thing it did 30 years ago.

^ But all of those players are much better skaters than Sam. It's not just about speed. Tavares is a good skater. As is Kopitar. Non of those guys are wobbling around like Sam is out there.

Wasn't JT knocked specifically due to his skating? Maybe I'm misremembering.

[Thorny]

Ahh Pouliot.. 4th overall pick in 2005. Spent 3 years in the AHL. Career high 36 points in a season, once with the Rangers and once with the Oilers. Currently playing on 7th NHL team in 12 seasons.

 

Sam Reinhart, spent 0 seasons in the AHL, had 42 points in his first year and 47 points in his second year for a team that has been one of the all time worst scoring franchises in NHL history.

 

This year? Pouliot has 11 points and Reinhart has 11 points. Reinhart has played with lower overall talent and STILL has as many points as Pouliot.

 

I like Pouliot, but he's a guy who has had trouble staying on ANY roster and has NEVER reached the point totals Reinhart has already.

Pouliot: An exceptionally low bar.

 

I don't care what Reinhart did in his first two seasons. I care about what he's doing now. Maybe he'll turn it around and get back to producing at the rates he was before. It wouldn't be the production we were hoping for from him, when we drafted him, but I'll be very happy to see it nonetheless.

 

But his performance over the course of a near half season so far is an abject disappointment and cause for concern. I'll reevaluate my take on Sam Reinhart if he gives me reason to, but right now I can only judge him based on the player he's showing himself to be currently, over a significant sample size.

 

That can certainly change, but I can't assume it will.

 

Also, I can't remember exactly, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe his numbers have been trending down since mid-way though last season. At even strength, specifically. How much was he buoyed up by a stellar PP last season?

Edited December 20, 2017 by Bjorn Borg

[dudacek]

Here’s something to ponder:

 

Paul Hamilton has suggested Sam Reinhart is entitled.

D4rk says he was protected in a Dan Bylsma cocoon.

We’ve seen suggestions that he was doted on by Murray.

 

We have had scant indications of what Botterill and Housley think.

But we do know Botterill wanted to put a heavy emphasis on developing talent, on establishing a culture of internal competition and making players earn it.

He made a point on more than one occasion of stating that it just wasn’t about developing the kids on the farm, but also about developing the kids already here.

 

Who would he be talking about if not Reinhart?

What if the first third of the season has been about breaking Sam of his entitlement, about giving him some adversity and about making him fight through it? How is Sam being challenged behind the scenes. How is he responding?

Is there a method to the way he has been used?

 

Has that method been an abject failure, or is there a payoff coming down the road?

Edited December 20, 2017 by Mick O’Manly

[Thorny]

Here’s something to ponder:

Paul Hamilton has suggested Sam Reinhart is entitled.

D4rk says he was protected in a Dan Bylsma cocoon.

We’ve seen suggestions that he was doted on by Murray.

We have had scant indications of what Botterill and Housley think.

But we do know Botterill wanted to put a heavy emphasis on developing talent, on establishing a culture of internal competition and making players earn it.

He made a point on more than one occasion of stating that it just wasn’t about developing the kids on the farm, but also about developing the kids already here.

Who would he be talking about if not Reinhart?

What if the first third of the season has been about breaking Sam of his entitlement, about giving him some adversity and about making him fight through it? How is Sam being challenged behind the scenes. How is he responding?

Is there a method to the way he has been used?

Has that method been an abject failure, or is there a payoff coming down the road?

A great post.

 

I'd very much like to put more stock in these hypotheticals, but there is just too little that is actually tangible there to colour my analysis of his play. Unknown variables.

 

The good thing is that any hidden variables working in Sam's favour would eventually show themselves in on-ice results. I'll be happy to sing the praises of Reinhart to high heaven if he turns it around.

 

I can't really do much more than speak to what I've seen from him through 35 games this year: nothing. But I'm not in charge, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, and thankfully those making the actual decisions are privy to all the behind the scenes info as well.

 

For every hypothetical positive behind the scenes variable, there's a hypothetical negative one. It's just hard to factor that into an evaluation.

[R_Dudley]

Speed or no speed, new coach old coach, entitlement or not, it all starts with each individuals comittment to their craft.

Now it’s correct many on this team are acting like JAG’s but Sam I am is not the same Sam he was.

 

He has not shown the same level of effort that he has previously shown and he certainly has not come into the season in better shape or appearing to have tried to improve. He certainly is not playing like the player you hope you get with a top pick.

 

I hope the new management is looking to build a team that is committed to its craft because that’s what it takes to win a championship.

 

Yeah this is his chance to show he belongs in the top six. If the effort and attitude is not there than I expect he will not be here and I will trust that will be why because management has made that clear and decided Sam I am is Sam is gone.

[SABRES 0311]

I have a feeling this is going to determine if he stays and Kane goes or the other way around.  Possible this is being done to make Sam look better to up his value.  If he succeeds on Jack's wing, will it be because it is the right fit for him or is it because Jack and Kane will make him look better?  Kind of like Moulson when he was in N.Y. 

[bunomatic]

Upthread someone said maybe showcasing him for a trade. This would not be out of the realm of possibility as far as I'm concerned. Either he's just not as good as everyone projected him to be or he's moping and entitled. I'm hoping he's moping and entitled because he can be broken of those bad habits. If he's just not that good well then shite. That sucks.

[BuffaloBorn]

Gretzky was not paticularly fast.
sometimes players can only produce on the top line, it doesn't mean they're bad players, they can still contribute majorly, but these types of players often look terrible outside a top line role. slower players can thrive on a top line with good players if they both have speed to complement it and Reinhart has the raw skill.

[bunomatic]

Vegas is winning because they have speed across the lineup. We have guys that look like they are skating in mud. 

[Taro T]

Gretzky was not paticularly fast.

sometimes players can only produce on the top line, it doesn't mean they're bad players, they can still contribute majorly, but these types of players often look terrible outside a top line role. slower players can thrive on a top line with good players if they both have speed to complement it and Reinhart has the raw skill.

Gretzky was at the bottom of every evaluation the Eulers could come up with. He also is the only player to reach 200 points in a season & did it several times.

 

While it's obvious you're trying to not throw Reinhart under the bus, PLEASE say you aren't trying to say Gretzky was a product of his linemates. He wasn't & this might be the poorest analogy this board has ever seen. (Which is a REALLY high (or low, depending on perspective ;)) bar to cross.)

Edited December 21, 2017 by Taro T

[erickompositör72]

 Kind of like Moulson when he was in N.Y. 

 

I think this is exactly it. Reinhart will be what Moulson was. He'll put up 30 goal seasons on a line with Eichel, but he's not fast, not good down-low and not too strong on the puck. But he can put the puck in the net, knows the spots to be in, and has good hands.

 

I think it's a shame it was in this current setting that he got his "chance" at center. And I'm getting a little worried about Housley's "system." I think Sam may even deserve another chance when the team gets better (or if they get another coach); maybe he will if he's traded.

[gilbert11]

Pouliot? Stepped right in off the Free Agent heap and surpassed Sam. Probably because he can skate. Plenty underperforming compared to expectations, but none so far as Sam, I'd wager.

 

If his skating has truly regressed, we are in an even worse spot with him. As the league is definitely trending faster. There is also only a much a player can do to improve their natural skating ability. Reinhart is a third year pro, what we see in his skating is what we are going to get.

So why was he rated so high for the draft when he can't skate? Didn't scouts recognize this?

[jsb]

Man does the English language evolve. This most definitely does imply the same thing it did 30 years ago.

 

 

:w00t:  :w00t:  :w00t:  Yes that was intended to be the 30 year ago meaning of the word if not 40.  Nice catch!!!

[kishoph]

I don't know if your logic works here. His skating can definitely get worse as well as improve; it doesn't just stay at whichever base level you get it to

 

I think he's pretty much playing the same, in a different system, with worse linemates, and some worse luck. 

Reinhart when paired with good players => Good

 

When not => Bad

 

Water is wet

 

https://twitter.com/TimDanielsBR/status/943576546329145344

 

 

Reinhart has been paired with Eichel and Kane for 41.9% of his 5 on 5. He has spent 22.2% with O'Reilly and Pouliot. That's the top 3 point getters that Reinhart has been paired with the majority of his 5 on 5 TOI.  There should be a little more "good".

 

http://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_profiler.php?sent=go&players=3993&games=2017-2018:R

[That Aud Smell]

Man.

 

Remember the "Sam Reinhart Will Be Fine" mantra?

 

Good times. Simpler times.

[LTS]

Man.

 

Remember the "Sam Reinhart Will Be Fine" mantra?

 

Good times. Simpler times.

 

It's so much more fun to just overreact.  I remember when my kid struggled with a few math assignments earlier this year and his grade dropped into the low 80's.  I immediately was looking to sell him to some slave trader and get my money back as I certainly wasn't going to waste it on some failure child who could not keep his math grades up.

 

I think he was too entitled and just expected people to do his math problems for him.

[That Aud Smell]

It's so much more fun to just overreact.  I remember when my kid struggled with a few math assignments earlier this year and his grade dropped into the low 80's.  I immediately was looking to sell him to some slave trader and get my money back as I certainly wasn't going to waste it on some failure child who could not keep his math grades up.

 

I think he was too entitled and just expected people to do his math problems for him.

 

I'm really not sure whether we're over-reacting with Reinhart. By that I really truly mean, I'm not sure. As in, maybe some (including me) are over-reacting, and, then again, maybe we're not.

 

I know we keep hearing about the pair of 40+ point seasons. That's all well and good. And it gives some solace and hope. I do wonder a bit about what was really under the hood during those times. How many offensive zone starts. 5v5 points compared  to power play points. All that #fancystat sort of stuff.