Losing Culture

[inkman]

This phrase or ideology has been mentioned in many a thread so I figured we could get it all out here.

 

We can all agree that no one LIKES to lose. Winning is fun. You get the spoils of victory and a wonderful sense of accomplishment. So if no one likes it, why is it happening?

 

General statements about culture, lack of leadership, blah blah blah are throw around like a deflated football at a Patriots game. That's fine and dandy but what does it mean.

 

What I take it as is players and or coaches aren't doing the work it takes to win OR even if all that is being done whoever is doing it is woefully unqualified.

 

So what is it? Lack of talent or lack of work ethic? I honestly don't know. I'm sure I'll get 100 responses telling me poster A is certain that the players aren't working hard enough and I'm sure il get equal amount of responses stating the talent isn't there. So have at it.

[Brawndo]

I think it's a combination of both lack of talent and lack of work effort.

 

Something that does bother me is last season Lehner mentioned in many a post game pressers that the team was not following the game plan. Fast forward to this season and Housley is mentioning the same thing. That needs to be fixed

[WildCard]

I don't know what it is. Why doesn't a team like Toronto have a losing culture? What changed Edmonton around so quickly? 

 

To me, it seems like all it takes is one guy you believe in. You believe in Babcock, you believe in McDavid...maybe our team doesn't believe in Eichel

[That Aud Smell]

This stuff is like trying to grab and hold water.

I think it's a combination of both lack of talent and lack of work effort.

Something that does bother me is last season Lehner mentioned in many a post game pressers that the team was not following the game plan. Fast forward to this season and Housley is mentioning the same thing. That needs to be fixed

 

I was unaware that Housley was saying the same thing.

 

It does call to mind: Las Vegas won a whole bunch of games with cast-offs. I am sure everyone there was following the game plan.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I think that it is a combination of the two ... lack of talent and lack of consistent effort.

 

I do not buy this culture of losing thing as being a real thing.  All players, coaches and management are professionals.  The culture from an early age is to work hard and to win.

 

There is a learning curve with the new players and new coaches.  We are 20 games into season one with many new players and new coaches and new systems.  They are all learning on the fly and it will take time.

 

When the effort is there we see good results, or at least a competitive team.  See the Caps and Penguins games.  When there is not full effort these guys are brutal ... to many examples to list.

 

The roster is still lacking in many areas and the good players are struggling to learn new systems.  I think it will come.

[inkman]

I also wanted to touch on what Ennis and Foligno said, although I can't find it for reference. Something along the lines I'd their new coach "not accepting losing". I honestly have no idea what this means. What does Boudreau do after a loss, make them simulate the game on ice but instead of missing open nets and not making saves, they do the opposite. I realize I'm being preposterous but what does it mean? The coach throws things and yells a lot. Benches Player, even the stars if they aren't committed? Just wondering what happens in their "winning culture". I'm guessing it starts with actually winning games.

[josie]

I also wanted to touch on what Ennis and Foligno said, although I can't find it for reference. Something along the lines I'd their new coach "not accepting losing". I honestly have no idea what this means. What does Boudreau do after a loss, make them simulate the game on ice but instead of missing open nets and not making saves, they do the opposite. I realize I'm being preposterous but what does it mean? The coach throws things and yells a lot. Benches Player, even the stars if they aren't committed? Just wondering what happens in their "winning culture". I'm guessing it starts with actually winning games.

That makes me think of Torts. When he went to Columbus, a lot of people said that his aggressive often tantrum-y style wouldn't work there... but CBJ is doing their best in franchise history now. Has he had to take the gloves off to get results? I don't know, but I wonder if helped kick them into a new gear (along with some good trades). They're not Stanley Cup winners yet, but they are certainly where I think we thought we'd be by now. Fun look into him with them : https://www.theringer.com/2017/10/6/16435370/columbus-blue-jackets-john-tortorella

 

I saw someone on another thread say they wanted more of the classic Herb Brooks "BAG SKATE. AGAIN. Failure is not an option" approach. I'm inclined to agree from what I've read. 

 

Does "losing culture" mean players happy to middle along and collect a good paycheck/enjoy the celebrity life, or is it an exasperated "why even bother" attitude? 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Josie914

[Scottysabres]

Changing the culture starts with accountability, from the players specifically. And not just towards self-accountability or your team mates, but to that logo on their jerseys.

 

Pride, commitment, a willingness built in to achieve and doing what it takes to do so. These culminate in to confidence imo.

 

Right now, this roster has very little of that, again, imo. The only ones who can change that are the coaching staff imo.

[French Collection]

I also wanted to touch on what Ennis and Foligno said, although I can't find it for reference. Something along the lines I'd their new coach "not accepting losing". I honestly have no idea what this means. What does Boudreau do after a loss, make them simulate the game on ice but instead of missing open nets and not making saves, they do the opposite. I realize I'm being preposterous but what does it mean? The coach throws things and yells a lot. Benches Player, even the stars if they aren't committed? Just wondering what happens in their "winning culture". I'm guessing it starts with actually winning games.

Boudreau is an older coach, and he sounds rough around the edges. Maybe he does kick garbage cans and doesn't coddle his players.

In this day and age, the old school approach is not supposed to work because these players have been handled with kid gloves.

They can be coach killers because they make 10 times what the coach does, the owner has way more invested in the players.

 

I would be inclined to go old school, but that's because I am old.

[inkman]

Changing the culture starts with accountability, from the players specifically. And not just towards self-accountability or your team mates, but to that logo on their jerseys.

 

Pride, commitment, a willingness built in to achieve and doing what it takes to do so. These culminate in to confidence imo.

 

Right now, this roster has very little of that, again, imo. The only ones who can change that are the coaching staff imo.

Without trying to sound too douchey, this seems like verbal . I literally have no idea how to visualize what you are talking about. Do the players let media members walk all over the logo in the locker room? Are they wrinkling their sweaters too much after removing them. Pride in the logo sounds like such rhetoric. Do they need to scream "we are the Buffalo Sabres and we need to start playing like it".

 

I just see it too much in the corporate world. Pompous jack holes spouting about core values and acting with grit when they are hanging their admin or finger blasting another department manager during their lunch breaks.

[Gramps]

I don't know what it is. Why doesn't a team like Toronto have a losing culture? What changed Edmonton around so quickly? 

 

To me, it seems like all it takes is one guy you believe in. You believe in Babcock, you believe in McDavid...maybe our team doesn't believe in Eichel

 

Maybe cuz there's a few banners hanging around the ACC ... same with Edmonton. We haven't won anything ... ever. Eichel is not McDavid, nor is he Crosby. But in fairness to Jack, he has no Malkin, Letang, Draisaitl, etc. Put Jack on the Lightning right now and watch him light it up. 

[North Buffalo]

That makes me think of Torts. When he went to Columbus, a lot of people said that his aggressive often tantrum-y style wouldn't work there... but CBJ is doing their best in franchise history now. Has he had to take the gloves off to get results? I don't know, but I wonder if helped kick them into a new gear (along with some good trades). They're not Stanley Cup winners yet, but they are certainly where I think we thought we'd be by now. Fun look into him with them : https://www.theringer.com/2017/10/6/16435370/columbus-blue-jackets-john-tortorella

 

I saw someone on another thread say they wanted more of the classic Herb Brooks "BAG SKATE. AGAIN. Failure is not an option" approach. I'm inclined to agree from what I've read. 

 

Does "losing culture" mean players happy to middle along and collect a good paycheck/enjoy the celebrity life, or is it an exasperated "why even bother" attitude?

 

https://twitter.com/sethrorabaugh/status/932653031136616453

[Jacque Richard]

Probably the holiday inn for the Sabres down there. So full of themselves

[Eleven]

Maybe cuz there's a few banners hanging around the ACC ... same with Edmonton. We haven't won anything ... ever. Eichel is not McDavid, nor is he Crosby. But in fairness to Jack, he has no Malkin, Letang, Draisaitl, etc. Put Jack on the Lightning right now and watch him light it up. 

 

Toronto?  Please.  The Cleveland Browns won titles, too.

 

I don't think Toronto has been to the finals in my lifetime.

 

To me, Toronto is the epitome of "losing culture."

Edited November 20, 2017 by Eleven

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Toronto?  Please.  The Cleveland Browns won titles, too.

 

I don't think Toronto has been to the finals in my lifetime.

 

To me, Toronto is the epitome of "losing culture."

 

Correct.

 

Last time they were in the finals was the last year they won the cup.  1967, for those keeping track.

 

Happy 50th!!  nfreeman and my ass of a brother ... born in the year the Leaves last won the Cup.

[SwampD]

Just last Friday, when they were talking about the Peterman move on WGR, I heard Bulldog (who I kinda like) say he didn't mind because he didn't really care about making the playoffs.  :blink: What?! That told me all I needed to know about a losing culture. Losing is acceptable, because it'll all be better next season, or the season after that, or after that, or after that,...

 

We have been sold "the future" for a long, long time and it sucks. The thinking that it is acceptable to lose now because it will all be better in the future has permeated the entire Buffalo sports scene and it is a culture of losing and it's disgusting. I think it is very hard to come out from under.

 

 

 

With that said, we also just don't have the horses yet. :lol:

[LTS]

This stuff is like trying to grab and hold water.

 

I was unaware that Housley was saying the same thing.

 

It does call to mind: Las Vegas won a whole bunch of games with cast-offs. I am sure everyone there was following the game plan.

 

The GM was interviewed and he said it's largely because they are playing with no pressure. There is ZERO expectation of winning in the first season so the players aren't carrying any baggage.  They are supposed to not be good so every time they succeed it's just a bonus.  It's not expected.  Something similar to the response you'd have running a 9.85 100m dash compared the response Usain Bolt would have. 

 

I also wanted to touch on what Ennis and Foligno said, although I can't find it for reference. Something along the lines I'd their new coach "not accepting losing". I honestly have no idea what this means. What does Boudreau do after a loss, make them simulate the game on ice but instead of missing open nets and not making saves, they do the opposite. I realize I'm being preposterous but what does it mean? The coach throws things and yells a lot. Benches Player, even the stars if they aren't committed? Just wondering what happens in their "winning culture". I'm guessing it starts with actually winning games.

 

Gabby has been fired from many jobs for players tuning him out.  Coaching isn't about a single message, it's about the right message at the right time.  Great coaches know how to alter the message. It's people management and as a manager it is highly unlikely that you will get a team that thinks 100% the way you do as the leader.  You have to know how to manage the personalities.  If you have a mix of personalities that are so diametrically opposed that you lose one group as a direct result of gaining another group then you have a bad culture.  You can't win that way.

 

Some players will never need the kick in the pants to be motivated. They are harder on themselves than you can ever be and having you harp on them incessantly will do nothing more than get them to tune you out.  Other players need the kick in the butt because even though they've been successful they have a tendency to not achieve 100% all the time and slack off when they can.

 

If the Sabres locker room situation isn't the problem then you have to look at what could be demotivating at a higher level.  It's hardly the fans.  Is it ownership?  Players have said that the Pegulas are great (even when they aren't in Buffalo anymore).  Is it lip service?  It might not be the ownership either.

 

Right now I think its group of players who are feeling a lot of pressure to succeed and players are all trying to do it in different ways.  You get 1 guy on the ice who tries to do something more than what they are asked to do and it's just as bad as getting 1 guy on the ice who can't do what he's asked to do.  I think the Sabres have a combination of both going on and as such they look completely out of sync and they don't look like a team.  Part of it is that they lack talent where needed and another part is that those who have talent are trying to be more than they are (Eichel included).  Eichel should not be concerned about the fans wanting him to shoot.  He should be concerned about the team winning.  But he hears that people want him to shoot more and now he's trying to do that, perhaps even shooting when he shouldn't.  That's the easy one to point out, but I think it's across the board.

[qwksndmonster]

The ghost of Bylsma roams these halls.

[SwampD]

The ghost of the Tank roams these halls.

Fixed.

[That Aud Smell]

The one thing that I have heard -- in re winning culture -- is that you have a team that, from top to bottom, takes care of the dozens of "little things" (and not so little things) that ensure each player and the team is ready to do its absolute best.

 

I think a lot of that sort of stuff is behavioral -- routines, habits, etc. The one concrete example I once heard was how Drury got Campbell to ease off on the greasy burgers on game day and go with a simple chicken/pasta dish. I know that probably sounds inane now, but it was a specific example.

 

But there's also the extra work that good players on good teams are apparently putting in. The assistant quality coach (or whomever) loaded this iPad with footage of next week's opponents (including goalies). Have a look, and see what you can learn about how to deal with them.

 

And then there's the on-ice stuff. Is your self-imposed "limit" -- what you can honestly call your 100% -- something that is, in fact, limited by your not really wanting to push past the point of comfort? I get really uncomfortable chirping about this because I know for a feckin' FACT that, in terms of physical exertion, I am in that camp. I watch my one kid (who's inexplicably a really good athlete) push and push and push herself to higher levels of achievement and fitness -- I watched her lay her body OUT this past fall in the high school playoffs (and winced) -- and I knew, I know that, when I was her age, I would essentially reach a point where I was all "yep. nope. okay - you get to win this battle right here."

 

And more on-ice stuff: Are you truly grabbing an oar and pulling in the direction the coach is calling for? Or are you mixing in a fair dose of your own thing, your own agenda?

 

My thoughts on the two on-ice aspects: I think Reinhart is probably an issue re the first category, and I would imagine that Kane (and perhaps Eichel) is an issue re the second category.

 

And I think ROR is an issue re neither such category, but I also think he is probably two steps too slow right now.

[qwksndmonster]

Fixed.

How exactly did Bylsma protect the team? Can you explain it to me?

[That Aud Smell]

Right now I think its group of players who are feeling a lot of pressure to succeed and players are all trying to do it in different ways.  You get 1 guy on the ice who tries to do something more than what they are asked to do and it's just as bad as getting 1 guy on the ice who can't do what he's asked to do.  I think the Sabres have a combination of both going on and as such they look completely out of sync and they don't look like a team.  Part of it is that they lack talent where needed and another part is that those who have talent are trying to be more than they are (Eichel included).  Eichel should not be concerned about the fans wanting him to shoot.  He should be concerned about the team winning.  But he hears that people want him to shoot more and now he's trying to do that, perhaps even shooting when he shouldn't.  That's the easy one to point out, but I think it's across the board.

 

Good stuff. (Btw, I place little stock in what the LV GM said about why his team succeeded -- I don't think it's just (or even mostly) the absence of pressure that led to results.)

 

This piece quoted here was especially good, imo. The Sabres just do not resemble a team. Fits and starts of it (being a team) are there, but no more than that.

[PASabreFan]

Just last Friday, when they were talking about the Peterman move on WGR, I heard Bulldog (who I kinda like) say he didn't mind because he didn't really care about making the playoffs.  :blink: What?! That told me all I needed to know about a losing culture. Losing is acceptable, because it'll all be better next season, or the season after that, or after that, or after that,...

 

We have been sold "the future" for a long, long time and it sucks. The thinking that it is acceptable to lose now because it will all be better in the future has permeated the entire Buffalo sports scene and it is a culture of losing and it's disgusting. I think it is very hard to come out from under.

 

 

 

With that said, we also just don't have the horses yet. :lol:

You're very close. There's a lot of overthinking here. Your agent calls and says Buffalo is interested, or you're drafted here or traded here. What's the first thing Eichel thought of? Winning?

 

Is it any more complicated than this: when you don't field the very best roster possible, whether it's a tank year or you're saying it's "an evaluation year," how is that not by definition the promotion of a "losing culture." The players know. We need more Mike Webers.

[eman]

Just last Friday, when they were talking about the Peterman move on WGR, I heard Bulldog (who I kinda like) say he didn't mind because he didn't really care about making the playoffs.  :blink: What?! That told me all I needed to know about a losing culture. Losing is acceptable, because it'll all be better next season, or the season after that, or after that, or after that,...

 

We have been sold "the future" for a long, long time and it sucks. The thinking that it is acceptable to lose now because it will all be better in the future has permeated the entire Buffalo sports scene and it is a culture of losing and it's disgusting. I think it is very hard to come out from under.

 

 

 

With that said, we also just don't have the horses yet. :lol:

Cheers SwampD- you have stated it exactly! So tired of hearing about 'the future". It has been beaten to death by this organization. Great post!

[That Aud Smell]

We need more Mike Webers.

 

Well, there's another thing you and Terry have in common.