off topic The politics of terrorism

[nfreeman]

http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates

[Sabres Fan in NS]

This is an inherently political thread. It's about an act of mass murder carried out by bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics to achieve political ends.

 

SFiNS, it gives me no pleasure to say it, but the pathologies besetting world Islam run far deeper than "a few nutbars."

 

As I've said many times, there is a war going on. Europe is literally being overrun. It has stuck its head in the sand for a generation and is paying the price now -- and it's going to get much worse there before it gets better, if it ever does. And I hope no one here thinks we are immune. They are going to try to attack here too, and they aren't going to stop until they are stopped by force.

 

We have had countless discussions on this matter.  We will never see eye to eye on this.  So, I accept your opinion as long as you accept mine, which is that you could not be more wrong on this.

[PASabreFan]

http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates

Always good to quote a climate change denier. Barbarian, meet Neanderthal.

[woods-racer]

I'm not sure if I'm a hawk or not. My willingness to fight, or not, would lie solely in my assessment of fighting's probability of success. Success, by the way, doesn't mean I surrender anything simply to avoid a fight. In other words, I'm a willing hawk if I think it works. I still have to think. There are things in my life worth dying for.

 

To your question, though. Yes and yes if it's time to fight. One of my sons went on his own volition. I don't think you'll find a hawk answering your question with a "no". Sacrifice isn't usually an issue with a hawk.

I was thinking about Japan in a hearts and minds way all morning. The difference I see is that we didn't change the hearts and minds of coming generations until we extinguished the objective the current generation.

 

A Marshall plan for the Middle East is attractive. The Marshall plan wouldn't have worked before Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now, because I'm wary of interwebs, I am not calling for fire bombing and nuclear bombs. I am referencing the extinguishing of evil to create the fertile ground investment needs.

 

The Marshall Plan won't work because we don't have the military leadership ( MacArthur type) to stand up and speak their minds and let the American people decide. If Petraeus (or similar rank/position) where to act and say as MacArthur did when occupying Japan what could be right now?

 

The nuclear bombs never came close to extinguishing the evil that filled the minds of the civilian population, it it only made it worse. They gave a chance to implement the plan with main land Japan's surrender. The whole of the Japanese Army never fully surrendered to the 1970's. The chances for success that is today's Japan where slim to obtain in the ME. Not because politics are different here in America, but our military leadership is different. It appears as though are military academies do not teach post war tactics, or the end strategy. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

The Muslims have a saying: "everyone respects the strong horse." In other words, jihad loses much of its appeal when it becomes clear that it will be futile. So while I agree that the long term solution requires strong institutions and the adoption of many classically liberal ideals not found in Muslim societies, we won't get to the long term unless we win the war in the short term.

 

Do you think the scumbags in Paris would have persuaded by glib and pointless humor?

 

The war has already started. If we want to win we need to stop kidding ourselves about that fact.

 

I have never heard of that saying.

 

Can we please stop the misuse of the word jihad.  If you do not understand the meaning of that word don't use it and don't use the media as your dictionary.

 

As for the lack of classically liberal ideals missing from Muslim societies you are confusing what is represented as Muslim societies these days with what is a real Muslim society should be.  There are no truly Muslim, or Islamic, societies today.

[Neo]

Always good to quote a climate change denier. Barbarian, meet Neanderthal.

Ad hominem.

[Taro T]

When their economies are working again--i.e., when the people have something to lose--this will stop.

And this is where our pulling out of Iraq in 2011 is so ####ing frustrating. The fighting was essentially over and rebuilding had begun. We had essentially won, but then pulled out before order (and not oppression providing order like under Saddam) could be established and entrenched as the normal state of things. The vast majority of the people in Iraq (& elsewhere in the ME) simply want to live their lives in peace & safety. Our presence there was giving the Iraqis the opportunity to provide that on their own. Once we pulled out, the small minority of sick bastards that behead people for fun managed to come back out of the shadows. They weren't ready to handle that threat on their own w/ out our support, but they could handle it with our support.

 

I have a little bit of experience with this as I was designing a water plant to go in a major city there a couple of years ago. The security situation deteriorating was a large part of scuttling that. That was just one example of the myriad of projects that were restoring and reenforcing the normalcy that was starting to take root.

 

Our walking out caused the restoration of that country to come out stillbirth. There were many over there that trusted us, and we just abandoned them. And before somebody says the Iraqi government pushed us out; that is bull squat. There was a status of forces agreement to be reached. Our politicians wanted out and took a convenient way out - LT consequences be d*mned.

 

And now conditions are a lot worse than they were and we will likely have to put "boots on the ground" again - and lose 1,000's more of our kids. The big difference between then & now is there is no reason for the people that want normalcy & peace over there to trust we won't cut & run again. The 1st President Bush abandoned the Iraqi's after the war and President Obama abandoned them.

 

We threw away the gains we earned in Iraq and sat on the sidelines during the Arab Spring. Our world could & should be so much better today. And now there are 1,000's dead in the ME that didn't have to die at the hands of barbarians and over 100 in Paris. :cry:

 

Probably should've deleted this one before posting just like the 3 versions of it that were written last night. Oh well.

[wjag]

"Beirut suicide bombings kill 43; suspect claims ISIS sent attackers"

 

 

This happened on Thursday. Anyone else know of this? I'll admit I just found out. 

 

 

I did and mentioned it immediately last night up thread as well as the bombing in Baghdad.  The Western media has all but ignored these events.  Arabs killing Arabs is NBD but Arabs killing Europeans apparently is.  It really is a sad commentary.

Edited November 14, 2015 by wjag

[Neo]

I did and mentioned it immediately last night up thread as well as the bombing in Baghdad.  The Western media has all but ignored these events.  Arabs killing Arabs is NBD but Arabs killing Europeans apparently is.  It really is a sad commentary.

Reminiscent of black lives matter and all lives matter debate, perhaps ....

[...]

And this is where our pulling out of Iraq in 2011 is so ####ing frustrating. The fighting was essentially over and rebuilding had begun. We had essentially won, but then pulled out before order (and not oppression providing order like under Saddam) could be established and entrenched as the normal state of things. The vast majority of the people in Iraq (& elsewhere in the ME) simply want to live their lives in peace & safety. Our presence there was giving the Iraqis the opportunity to provide that on their own. Once we pulled out, the small minority of sick bastards that behead people for fun managed to come back out of the shadows. They weren't ready to handle that threat on their own w/ out our support, but they could handle it with our support.

 

I have a little bit of experience with this as I was designing a water plant to go in a major city there a couple of years ago. The security situation deteriorating was a large part of scuttling that. That was just one example of the myriad of projects that were restoring and reenforcing the normalcy that was starting to take root.

 

Our walking out caused the restoration of that country to come out stillbirth. There were many over there that trusted us, and we just abandoned them. And before somebody says the Iraqi government pushed us out; that is bull squat. There was a status of forces agreement to be reached. Our politicians wanted out and took a convenient way out - LT consequences be d*mned.

 

And now conditions are a lot worse than they were and we will likely have to put "boots on the ground" again - and lose 1,000's more of our kids. The big difference between then & now is there is no reason for the people that want normalcy & peace over there to trust we won't cut & run again. The 1st President Bush abandoned the Iraqi's after the war and President Obama abandoned them.

 

We threw away the gains we earned in Iraq and sat on the sidelines during the Arab Spring. Our world could & should be so much better today. And now there are 1,000's dead in the ME that didn't have to die at the hands of barbarians and over 100 in Paris. :cry:

 

Probably should've deleted this one before posting just like the 3 versions of it that were written last night. Oh well.

I'm quotong it for posterity. Excellent contribution.

[Hoss]

1. Important: there is NO #IS claim from Al Hayat. In #IS's official daily bulletin, there is NO mention of #Paris. http://twitter.com/charliewinter/status/665463135336296448/photo/1

 

 

#BREAKING: French president blames Islamic State group for Paris attacks

 

Islamic State issues statement claiming responsibility for #ParisAttacks http://twitter.com/GrasswireNow/status/665482851714904065/photo/1

 

They're saying this is "only the beginning of the storm."

Edited November 14, 2015 by Hoss

[Huckleberry]

I did and mentioned it immediately last night up thread as well as the bombing in Baghdad.  The Western media has all but ignored these events.  Arabs killing Arabs is NBD but Arabs killing Europeans apparently is.  It really is a sad commentary.

 

No they haven't, Beirut and Baghdad bombing were all over the news over here, just people chose to ignore because it wasn't so close to home.  

[nfreeman]

Always good to quote a climate change denier. Barbarian, meet Neanderthal.

And this is where soft-headed liberalism gets us. Bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics commit yet another act of mass murder and announce that they are looking forward to drinking our blood -- but we are the barbarians.

[Huckleberry]

Also wouldn't surprise me if they'd start making arrests in Belgium soon in the two cities that are closest to me Brussels and Vilvoorde.   

 

I don't agree with everything Nfreeman has said , but he is right about one thing and most Europeans feel that way.    

Socialistic government has failed us the last 30 + years when it comes to uncontrolled Immigration and debt management.   

is going to hit the fan soon here I'm afraid, there will be more bombings at first, but at one point everyone will have had enough and don't think I need to paint a picture what will happen then.

 

Belgian, dutch and german armies have been training on how to deal with race riots for years now.

[nfreeman]

And this is where our pulling out of Iraq in 2011 is so ####ing frustrating. The fighting was essentially over and rebuilding had begun. We had essentially won, but then pulled out before order (and not oppression providing order like under Saddam) could be established and entrenched as the normal state of things. The vast majority of the people in Iraq (& elsewhere in the ME) simply want to live their lives in peace & safety. Our presence there was giving the Iraqis the opportunity to provide that on their own. Once we pulled out, the small minority of sick bastards that behead people for fun managed to come back out of the shadows. They weren't ready to handle that threat on their own w/ out our support, but they could handle it with our support.

 

I have a little bit of experience with this as I was designing a water plant to go in a major city there a couple of years ago. The security situation deteriorating was a large part of scuttling that. That was just one example of the myriad of projects that were restoring and reenforcing the normalcy that was starting to take root.

 

Our walking out caused the restoration of that country to come out stillbirth. There were many over there that trusted us, and we just abandoned them. And before somebody says the Iraqi government pushed us out; that is bull squat. There was a status of forces agreement to be reached. Our politicians wanted out and took a convenient way out - LT consequences be d*mned.

 

And now conditions are a lot worse than they were and we will likely have to put "boots on the ground" again - and lose 1,000's more of our kids. The big difference between then & now is there is no reason for the people that want normalcy & peace over there to trust we won't cut & run again. The 1st President Bush abandoned the Iraqi's after the war and President Obama abandoned them.

 

We threw away the gains we earned in Iraq and sat on the sidelines during the Arab Spring. Our world could & should be so much better today. And now there are 1,000's dead in the ME that didn't have to die at the hands of barbarians and over 100 in Paris. :cry:

 

Probably should've deleted this one before posting just like the 3 versions of it that were written last night. Oh well.

Excellent post. Of all the stains on the president's legacy, the ceding of the ME back to the savages for no reason whatsoever is the worst.

[K-9]

The Marshall Plan won't work because we don't have the military leadership ( MacArthur type) to stand up and speak their minds and let the American people decide. If Petraeus (or similar rank/position) where to act and say as MacArthur did when occupying Japan what could be right now?

 

The nuclear bombs never came close to extinguishing the evil that filled the minds of the civilian population, it it only made it worse. They gave a chance to implement the plan with main land Japan's surrender. The whole of the Japanese Army never fully surrendered to the 1970's. The chances for success that is today's Japan where slim to obtain in the ME. Not because politics are different here in America, but our military leadership is different. It appears as though are military academies do not teach post war tactics, or the end strategy.

 

Military leadership is only as effective as the civilian powers entrusted to direct it.

 

In the case of Iraq, Rummy, Wolfy, and the rest of the boys screwed the pooch with their arrogance in thinking Iraq could be changed on the cheap. When Powell warned of the "Pottery Barn" rule of "you break it, you bought it", a flag was raised. When they fired Shinseki for having the temerity to say they needed far more troops before they invaded, it was obvious we never intended to commit to affecting any meaningful change.

 

Bottom line is this: in post war Japan and in our sector of Germany, we stuck to a ratio of one soldier per every 10 in population. In Iraq it was 1 in 25. We also allowed local politicians a say in reestablishing order as well as arming local police to help maintain it. We did none of that in Iraq even though military leaders advised it before going in.

[SwampD]

And this is where our pulling out of Iraq in 2011 is so ####ing frustrating. The fighting was essentially over and rebuilding had begun. We had essentially won, but then pulled out before order (and not oppression providing order like under Saddam) could be established and entrenched as the normal state of things. The vast majority of the people in Iraq (& elsewhere in the ME) simply want to live their lives in peace & safety. Our presence there was giving the Iraqis the opportunity to provide that on their own. Once we pulled out, the small minority of sick bastards that behead people for fun managed to come back out of the shadows. They weren't ready to handle that threat on their own w/ out our support, but they could handle it with our support.

 

I have a little bit of experience with this as I was designing a water plant to go in a major city there a couple of years ago. The security situation deteriorating was a large part of scuttling that. That was just one example of the myriad of projects that were restoring and reenforcing the normalcy that was starting to take root.

 

Our walking out caused the restoration of that country to come out stillbirth. There were many over there that trusted us, and we just abandoned them. And before somebody says the Iraqi government pushed us out; that is bull squat. There was a status of forces agreement to be reached. Our politicians wanted out and took a convenient way out - LT consequences be d*mned.

 

And now conditions are a lot worse than they were and we will likely have to put "boots on the ground" again - and lose 1,000's more of our kids. The big difference between then & now is there is no reason for the people that want normalcy & peace over there to trust we won't cut & run again. The 1st President Bush abandoned the Iraqi's after the war and President Obama abandoned them.

 

We threw away the gains we earned in Iraq and sat on the sidelines during the Arab Spring. Our world could & should be so much better today. And now there are 1,000's dead in the ME that didn't have to die at the hands of barbarians and over 100 in Paris. :cry:

 

Probably should've deleted this one before posting just like the 3 versions of it that were written last night. Oh well.

Honest question, was it a water plant the we ourselves destroyed?

 

And this is where soft-headed liberalism gets us. Bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics commit yet another act of mass murder and announce that they are looking forward to drinking our blood -- but we are the barbarians.

You seem a little bloodthirsty yourself.

[Taro T]

Honest question, was it a water plant the we ourselves destroyed?

 

 

You seem a little bloodthirsty yourself.

No it was not. Nor was it a replacement for 1.

[nfreeman]

You seem a little bloodthirsty yourself.

If I could push a button and turn all swords into plowshares, I would do so. But that's not the world we live in. We live in a dangerous world that has become far more dangerous due to self-delusion and appeasement.

 

And I don't want a military engagement in the ME for reasons of payback. I want it because I want to reduce the casualties of the war that the enemies of civilization have declared on the West.

[PASabreFan]

And this is where soft-headed liberalism gets us. Bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics commit yet another act of mass murder and announce that they are looking forward to drinking our blood -- but we are the barbarians.

No, you called the terrorists barbarians. I called the writer you linked to a Neanderthal. Ignorance is the common thread.

[SwampD]

If I could push a button and turn all swords into plowshares, I would do so. But that's not the world we live in. We live in a dangerous world that has become far more dangerous due to self-delusion and appeasement.

 

And I don't want a military engagement in the ME for reasons of payback. I want it because I want to reduce the casualties of the war that the enemies of civilization have declared on the West.

I'm assuming that when you say "casualties of war" you mean "Western casualties of war." I'll say it again. Our last military engagement killed over 100,000 innocent casualties of war, they just happened to not be western so we don't count them. That's an awful lot of blood on our hands. You keep pretending that this thing is only one sided,… well, actually it is. We kill a whole lot more innocent people than they do.

Edited November 14, 2015 by SwampD

[darksabre]

And this is where soft-headed liberalism gets us. Bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics commit yet another act of mass murder and announce that they are looking forward to drinking our blood -- but we are the barbarians.

It's language like this that loses you all credibility. "Soft headed liberalism". How nebulous. While other posters have valuable contributions to make the best you can do is AM talk radio snark.

[Hoss]

Grasswire: Update: Belgian justice minister confirms “number of arrests” made in connection to Paris attacks - http://bit.ly/1kwcPRy

[JJFIVEOH]

Speaking of refugees,  it's being reported that at least one of the suicide bombers was a Syrian refugee. 

[nfreeman]

No, you called the terrorists barbarians. I called the writer you linked to a Neanderthal. Ignorance is the common thread.

So in an article about mass murder, you focus on a throwaway line about climate change and conclude that the writer can't be taken seriously? The common thread here appears to be that leftists -- like the president, who recently opined that ISIS has been contained and the biggest threat to the world is climate change -- don't seem to understand what a real threat is and what isn't.