bunomatic Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Isis has released a statement that Rome, London and Washington are next. Their wording something to the effect , we've unleashed a storm . Not sure if people remember or are aware but in September isis said it would unleash an army of 50 000 soldiers into Europe to act as sleeper cells. October/November roll around and the refugee crisis out of the middle east was in full effect. Estimates are that they have anywhere from 7000 to 15 000 members. It would be hard to pin the actual number down. Thoughts ? What are the estimates of the number of refugees ? If 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 100 were radicalized what would that put the number of soldiers moving into Europe at ? If the Paris attack only required 5-6 guys.. Apparently the Rome ,London Washington threat was actually from a twitter account thought to be from isis or used by isis in the past so take it with a grain of salt i suppose. Edited November 14, 2015 by bunomatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think this is where we're missing each other. I'm not talking about changing hearts and minds of the radicalized, I'm talking about changing hearts and minds of the potentially future radicalized so that the radicalization never happens. Education, economic opportunities, basically a positive purpose in life. America interacts positively rather than negatively and we're the "good guys" not the "bad guys". I doubt you'll find much opposition to this idea. What seems to be the stumbling block is HOW you accomplish this. You're not just going to saunter into town and start fixing things and earning karma points. Little kids get their arms cut off in African countries after the UN or missionaries administer inoculations. Iraqi homes are invaded, and a patriarch has his face peeled off with a wire for cooperating with the US forces. Before you lay the groundwork for "a better life" you need to remove the fear that pursuing "a better life" will result in torture and death. And that's assuming the natives think what we'd bring is better for them. To us it's a no-brainer, but not every belief system thinks ultra- materialism and spiritual vapidity equals "a better life". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Pope Francis: Third World War. ISIS: "Paris, the capital of adultry and vice". Nothing about intervention or ordinance dropped in Syria. ISIS: "Washington, London and Rome are next". Must be those imperialist Italians. I'm asking you ... Listen to their own words when you consider the "whys". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Well, we can no more completely stop non-state terrorists than we can completely stop school shooters. Military and intelligence is part of the imperfect solution, but with terrorists a military response is in someways at once invited because it legitimizes the perpetrators, but it also helps polarize their own constituency. So I would be careful of the robust and muscular military response and fight these bastards by lethal stealth and whatever can be done to undermine what legitimacy they have. Thanks for saying it for me better than I could have. Terrorism works. People are afraid. They're overreacting. They're playing sad music on NPR. We'll have a moment of silence before the game tonight. France says "this is war!" (as if it wasn't war when they were bombing Syria). You can't go to war and then be offended when your nose is bloodied. Asymetric war, yes. Many people want to re-occupy that region to prevent further attacks, as if doing so in the first place prevented any attacks, and I think the enemy would love our presence to be increased. It's all so ludicrous. What was our interest in the region in the first place? When did it begin? Where will it end? One final question for the hawks. I take it you are in favor of a draft and are OK with dropping your kids and grandkids off at the train station? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Sooo, adultery is worse than murder,… apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Isis has released a statement that Rome, London and Washington are next. Their wording something to the effect , we've unleashed a storm . Not sure if people remember or are aware but in September isis said it would unleash an army of 50 000 soldiers into Europe to act as sleeper cells. October/November roll around and the refugee crisis out of the middle east was in full effect. Estimates are that they have anywhere from 7000 to 15 000 members. It would be hard to pin the actual number down. Thoughts ? What are the estimates of the number of refugees ? If 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 100 were radicalized what would that put the number of soldiers moving into Europe at ? If the Paris attack only required 5-6 guys... Obviously ridiculous. Those refugees are innocent pawns and a distraction from the real players. So what only 70% (or more) of the refugees are men of military age. They don't need scrutinizing, they need free XBoxes and Starbucks gift cards. That'll show 'em we mean no harm. Like offering a gluten-free breakfast bar to a lioness. Anyway, given recent history there is no reason not to take the threats seriously. It's too late for the countries that are too PC and hypnotized to have isolated the refugees they accepted, or who don't take immigration and borders seriously. Those countries will have to back-track and find every person they let in, and thoroughly vet them, at the very least. As long as they can forgive themselves for being judgmental while they do so, and appearing to prefer their own citizens' welfare to that of complete strangers. Which is mighty Christian of them, a fact which on its own must cause traumatizing intellectual dissonance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think this is where we're missing each other. I'm not talking about changing hearts and minds of the radicalized, I'm talking about changing hearts and minds of the potentially future radicalized so that the radicalization never happens. Education, economic opportunities, basically a positive purpose in life. America interacts positively rather than negatively and we're the "good guys" not the "bad guys". Post WWII as an example of how to achieve that, both in Europe and Japan. Japan is the best example of it (changing hearts and minds) of a nation willing to kill/defend it's home land at any cost (suicide pilots/soldiers). The hate that was generational for the West was amazing in pre WWII Japan. We had our chance in the ME by setting up military bases, starting interaction with the local population. Flooding the local economy with American dollars (GI's spending alone). The plan was at it's infantile stages but was stopped. It didn't happen overnight in the post WWII model, it took a generation. We (the American voter) didn't give it 4 years. To bad history in this case didn't repeat it's self. Sooo, adultery is worse than murder,… apparently. Actually, it is considered at least as bad, as is homosexuality and *n*l sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 That's not how I read it. I read it as saying that if America denied military aid to the French, it would be "fair payback." I do not agree at all--France was right to stay out of Iraq and we were wrong to go in. But I think that's freeman's point. Correct and thanks, although I wasn't referring to France's staying out of Iraq -- I was referring to their active obstructionism. Liger -- how could you possibly think that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Thanks for saying it for me better than I could have. Terrorism works. People are afraid. They're overreacting. They're playing sad music on NPR. We'll have a moment of silence before the game tonight. France says "this is war!" (as if it wasn't war when they were bombing Syria). You can't go to war and then be offended when your nose is bloodied. Asymetric war, yes. Many people want to re-occupy that region to prevent further attacks, as if doing so in the first place prevented any attacks, and I think the enemy would love our presence to be increased. It's all so ludicrous. What was our interest in the region in the first place? When did it begin? Where will it end? One final question for the hawks. I take it you are in favor of a draft and are OK with dropping your kids and grandkids off at the train station? I'm not sure if I'm a hawk or not. My willingness to fight, or not, would lie solely in my assessment of fighting's probability of success. Success, by the way, doesn't mean I surrender anything simply to avoid a fight. In other words, I'm a willing hawk if I think it works. I still have to think. There are things in my life worth dying for. To your question, though. Yes and yes if it's time to fight. One of my sons went on his own volition. I don't think you'll find a hawk answering your question with a "no". Sacrifice isn't usually an issue with a hawk. Post WWII as an example of how to achieve that, both in Europe and Japan. Japan is the best example of it (changing hearts and minds) of a nation willing to kill/defend it's home land at any cost (suicide pilots/soldiers). The hate that was generational for the West was amazing in pre WWII Japan. We had our chance in the ME by setting up military bases, starting interaction with the local population. Flooding the local economy with American dollars (GI's spending alone). The plan was at it's infantile stages but was stopped. It didn't happen overnight in the post WWII model, it took a generation. We (the American voter) didn't give it 4 years. To bad history in this case didn't repeat it's self. Actually, it is considered at least as bad, as is homosexuality and *n*l sex. I was thinking about Japan in a hearts and minds way all morning. The difference I see is that we didn't change the hearts and minds of coming generations until we extinguished the objective the current generation. A Marshall plan for the Middle East is attractive. The Marshall plan wouldn't have worked before Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now, because I'm wary of interwebs, I am not calling for fire bombing and nuclear bombs. I am referencing the extinguishing of evil to create the fertile ground investment needs. Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I don't like quoting long posts but I'm fine having this double posted. I was hoping that this thread would be a break from all the bickering and a chance to just mourn. if only. Why are we to mourn this event and not something that happened in Beirut the other day? You could be on full-time mourn with the way the world is. It's just not practical. And if we're to selectively mourn, then I think we're getting to the heart of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPre Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 "Beirut suicide bombings kill 43; suspect claims ISIS sent attackers" This happened on Thursday. Anyone else know of this? I'll admit I just found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure if I'm a hawk or not. My willingness to fight, or not, would lie solely in my assessment of fighting's probability of success. Success, by the way, doesn't mean I surrender anything simply to avoid a fight. In other words, I'm a willing hawk if I think it works. I still have to think. There are things in my life worth dying for. To your question, though. Yes and yes if it's time to fight. One of my sons went on his own volition. I don't think you'll find a hawk answering your question with a "no". Sacrifice isn't usually an issue with a hawk. I was thinking about Japan in a hearts and minds way all morning. The difference I see is that we didn't change the hearts and minds of coming generations until we extinguished the objective the current generation. A Marshall plan for the Middle East is attractive. The Marshall plan wouldn't have worked before Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now, because I'm wary of interwebs, I am not calling for fire bombing and nuclear bombs. I am referencing the extinguishing of evil to create the fertile ground investment needs. It would help if the richer ME countries stopped building indoor ski slopes and started stabilizing the region, too, you know? Why are we to mourn this event and not something that happened in Beirut the other day? You could be on full-time mourn with the way the world is. It's just not practical. And if we're to selectively mourn, then I think we're getting to the heart of the problem. "Beirut suicide bombings kill 43; suspect claims ISIS sent attackers" This happened on Thursday. Anyone else know of this? I'll admit I just found out. It's because it happens so often in some places that we become deaf to it. It's really sad. Edited November 14, 2015 by eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Lets face it. The western media doesn't give us all of the news. They feed us what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Lets face it. The western media doesn't give us all of the news. They feed us what they want. The bombing in Beirut was widely reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoPre Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Lets face it. The western media doesn't give us all of the news. They feed us what they want. Very true. And you'd think w/ what went down yesterday the media would be saying this is the second terroristic attack in two days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 The bombing in Beirut was widely reported. Yep. But no amount of mourning is really going to un- Lebanon. Paris, now that is the worlds Disneyland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 It would help if the richer ME countries stopped building indoor ski slopes and started stabilizing the region, too, you know? Under commented on here and elsewhere. Yes! I had a thought earlier when reading about economic opportunity as a heart and mind tool. Sunni ruled Saudi Arabia has plenty of "economics" to provide opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 It's because it happens so often in some places that we become deaf to it. It's really sad. I don't think that's it. I think a French life is valued more than a Lebanese life. That's also very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 It's not unlike the death of Princess Diana. We may hear of other prominent people dying, but nothing sends the media off the rails like a pop culture darling. The media didn't go wall-to-wall bonkers when Harry Blackstone Jr. died the same year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 The bombing in Beirut was widely reported. Yes I saw the news when it happened. But in general our news is filtered. I also try to follow other types of news feeds to get some other perspectives. One of my faves is the anti media. Its interesting and informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 It's not unlike the death of Princess Diana. We may hear of other prominent people dying, but nothing sends the media off the rails like a pop culture darling. The media didn't go wall-to-wall bonkers when Harry Blackstone Jr. died the same year. Nothing will top the media response to that school shooting in an affluent town just north of NYC. Baba Wawa could drive right up in her limo and be back for cocktails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 ISIS: Targets chosen as places where the west enjoys life. Sporting halls, restaurants, concert halls. Deliberately provocative question. Would you water board a perpetrator you captured last night? Compatriots remain at large Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastajoe Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 And then the US wants to bring over 100,000 Syrian refugees into this country. Are u £ucking kidding me. No way in hell should we bring any of these people over. But this just goes to show you how retarded our politicians are. You don't think IS will have people in those refugee groups??? @cnnbrk: Investigators use fingerprints to ID one Paris attacker as French national known to police, source tells CNN. https://t.co/SAWsdqIowb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Give me a break about the media. That is just right wing trash. The media is a mirror for the populace. Anyone could have started a thread about the Beirut bombing. They didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dominator Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 ISIS: Targets chosen as places where the west enjoys life. Sporting halls, restaurants, concert halls. Deliberately provocative question. Would you water board a perpetrator you captured last night? Compatriots remain at large You don't want to know what I would do, but I'm not trained and not versed in dealing with terrorists. I've also been binge watching Game of Thrones so I'm more inclined to take a page out of the medieval playbook rather than the US counter terrorism playbook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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