Thorny Posted December 18, 2023 Report Share Posted December 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, Taro T said: Ineptitude perhaps and a strong case can be made, particularly in certain aspects. Won't give you laziness. Have some thoughts on why they've been so Jeckyll and Hyde from game to game, but haven't had a chance to compare the thoughts to the data. Might spend some time next week seeing if the data supports them or if they're just wild hairs. But, flat out don't believe it's laziness. They'd have more losing streaks if it was. Perhaps?! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 18, 2023 Report Share Posted December 18, 2023 1 minute ago, Archie Lee said: 22+ minutes a game playing every important situation. Wearing an A. Being the top-guy. World Juniors. Another deep playoff run with a contending team. Things that most elite 18 year olds get an opportunity to do. The sort of things, if not directly the same, for which Power and Levi were praised for choosing to do over turning pro. Don't see how playing 14+ minutes every night (and he hasn't been below 14 minutes the last 12 games), getting some PP1 usage and some PK usage in the best league in the world isn't significantly better for his development than playing 22+/ night against kids. Were he getting made to look silly against the competition or if he were getting pounded would agree that the W is a better place for him. But neither of those are happening. And what he's getting an opportunity to do - play in the NHL at the age of 18 is something that only a few elite 18 year olds get an opportunity to do. He seems to be grasping the opportunity by both hands and is starting to run with it. 5 minutes ago, Thorny said: Perhaps?! Understatement. 😉 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ska-T Chitown Posted December 18, 2023 Report Share Posted December 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Taro T said: Don't see how playing 14+ minutes every night (and he hasn't been below 14 minutes the last 12 games), getting some PP1 usage and some PK usage in the best league in the world isn't significantly better for his development than playing 22+/ night against kids. Were he getting made to look silly against the competition or if he were getting pounded would agree that the W is a better place for him. But neither of those are happening. And what he's getting an opportunity to do - play in the NHL at the age of 18 is something that only a few elite 18 year olds get an opportunity to do. He seems to be grasping the opportunity by both hands and is starting to run with it. Understatement. 😉 See Reinhart, Sam. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 18, 2023 Report Share Posted December 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Archie Lee said: 22+ minutes a game playing every important situation. Wearing an A. Being the top-guy. World Juniors. Another deep playoff run with a contending team. Things that most elite 18 year olds get an opportunity to do. The sort of things, if not directly the same, for which Power and Levi were praised for choosing to do over turning pro. Ah, I thought you may have been referring to other prospects in the system we could better have devoted development time to. I think we’re done discussing the Benson “back to juniors” issue. I will agree to disagree and move on. Except to say this: Benson has shown to be more ready for the NHL at age 18 than either Power or Levi were at that age. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pimlach Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Thorny said: Man, the fans who get on here and scream for better, who get mad after every loss because they still think we can win- those are my peeps. You can see where this long journey through the desert has taken the most effect when you see posters throwing in the towel 30 games in. The expectations for this season can’t change. That would be the worst precedent of all to set. It was about winning. Get as many as you can over the final 50. That can’t change. It must not change: the soul of the franchise depends on it I can tell you I’m not throwing in a towel and I have high expectations for the lineup we have. Concerning Benson, he keeps making plays and creating, he is outplaying some opponents and most of his teammates. So sure, play him in the highest level he can handle, but they better protect him. Whoever is on the ice with Benson better jump into any fracas and answer for any action taken on him. My beef is with the FO for being in the position where they can’t spare him for a short time in the first place. It’s Bush. I can see @Brawndo ‘s point but coming at it with a bit of scorn for Adams. Edited December 19, 2023 by Pimlach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 1 hour ago, Pimlach said: I can tell you I’m not throwing in a towel and I have high expectations for the lineup we have. Concerning Benson, he keeps making plays and creating, he is outplaying some opponents and most of his teammates. So sure, play him in the highest level he can handle, but they better protect him. Whoever is on the ice with Benson better jump into any fracas and answer for any action taken on him. My beef is with the FO for being in the position where they can’t spare him for a short time in the first place. It’s Bush. I can see @Brawndo ‘s point but coming at it with a bit of scorn for Adams. Wouldn’t be the first team to keep their guy. He’s a pro now. WJC has been overrated for a long time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 15 hours ago, Taro T said: Ineptitude perhaps and a strong case can be made, particularly in certain aspects. Won't give you laziness. Have some thoughts on why they've been so Jeckyll and Hyde from game to game, but haven't had a chance to compare the thoughts to the data. Might spend some time next week seeing if the data supports them or if they're just wild hairs. But, flat out don't believe it's laziness. They'd have more losing streaks if it was. Granato changed the system and it results in fewer rush chances and worse exits and entries from what I've seen in Sabres Twitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 18 hours ago, Thorny said: Man, the fans who get on here and scream for better, who get mad after every loss because they still think we can win- those are my peeps. You can see where this long journey through the desert has taken the most effect when you see posters throwing in the towel 30 games in. The expectations for this season can’t change. That would be the worst precedent of all to set. It was about winning. Get as many as you can over the final 50. That can’t change. It must not change: the soul of the franchise depends on it I knew I liked you. Quinn finally back now too. LFG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 22 hours ago, Archie Lee said: 22+ minutes a game playing every important situation. Wearing an A. Being the top-guy. World Juniors. Another deep playoff run with a contending team. Things that most elite 18 year olds get an opportunity to do. The sort of things, if not directly the same, for which Power and Levi were praised for choosing to do over turning pro. There is no one established grooming formula that is suitable for every player. The route that Levi and Power took in their NHL journey isn't necessarily appropriate for every prospect. Benson went to this year's training camp and demonstrated that he can play at a level that earned him an NHL roster spot. And his play so far has earned him the right to get playing time on top lines. Everyone has their own evaluations when watching the games. Speaking for myself, he has not only been one of our better players but he has also been one of the grittier players on this team. He might be one of the least physically developed players on the roster, yet he has given us as much, if not the most, net presence in the games played so far. He's good, smart and tough. He's playing where he should be and where he would want to be. Some decisions regarding prospects are difficult to make. This isn't one of them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 8 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Granato changed the system and it results in fewer rush chances and worse exits and entries from what I've seen in Sabres Twitter Sometimes you wonder if “systems” over complicate a pretty simple game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ska-T Chitown Posted December 19, 2023 Report Share Posted December 19, 2023 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Sometimes you wonder if “systems” over complicate a pretty simple game. I am guessing there is a certain level of tongue-in-cheek in this, so I am not picking on it per se. But, it just presents an opportunity to say that sometimes systems are put in place to keep the simplicity of the game from getting out of hand. A decent example, I hope, is a forward in the D zone and there is a scrum for the puck in the corner. The two D are doing their jobs with support from the C and the strong-side winger. Puck pops loose, near the scrum, but definitely free. Simple hockey might compel the weak side winger (or net-front D) to try to get the puck leaving huge gaps in their coverage. The weak side winger needs to understand their role in that defense and hold position trusting the other teammates to do their job, etc etc. Obviously there are 1000 different tiny variations for that scenario which probably include several in which the weak side player should get involved, but generally - no. Why this example? Because it seems like 5 or more times a game a Sabre ends up out of position in our D zone because they are chasing the puck. Tying this back to the actual thread - I have generally seen Bennie in decent position for strong and weak side winger and he has fully intercepted many passes as a result, not to mention being in position tip to harass the puck if it comes near him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 On 12/18/2023 at 1:41 PM, Thorny said: Truly absurd The playoffs *aren’t* a mathematical fallacy right now, though. Why not take action instead of just giving up? Your suggestion is to just roll over and die. This isn’t just a detriment to our results this season it’s a poisonous mindset likely to affect future results too. It will invade into the psyche *next* season when things aren’t going our way, and so forth. When is the time to prioritize winning if not now? the fact is, taking one of our better players off the team for two weeks *could* make the difference - his age is meaningless semantics. When the margin for playoffs is this thin, of course it could make the difference. What are we even doing here? You were well wrong about Levi needing to go back and you are well wrong here. You are stuck on the development hamster wheel Only, only in Buffalo do we need to reward expected hockey aptitude and commitment by rewarding a player with a vacation. As if that shouldn’t just be a base standard. Farce. If taking the 10th ranked scorer off your team is going to that detrimental to your playoff chances, that gives you a great indication of what your playoff chances actually are. Pretty much the entire core of this team played for their country in the tournament and I doubt you will find a single player on the team that would have shown any resentment over sending Benson to the WJCs. Even in the extremely unlikely event they come close to the playoffs The WJCs are a vacation and overrated? It’s considered one of the most prestigious events for players, especially for Canadians. Talk to the players who have played for their country and see how overrated they think it is. Had they loaned Benson (who mentioned to Lance Lysowski playing in the World Juniors was a dream of his) it would had hardly been giving up. Out of all the prospects this organization has Levi is the one they can least afford to ***** up. At the time the team was rotating three goalies splitting practice and games. For a goaltender making the transition from college to pros this was the worse possible scenario for Him. I also have it on good authority that Levi’s Injury early this season was directly related to his usage to start the season If he is going to remain the starter in Buffalo and get the practice reps associated with it, fine keep him here. If it’s as a backup, then it’s best to send him down I’m pretty sure the Boston Bruins consider Matt Poitras a pro, yet they loaned Him to Team Canada and he is tied for 7th in scoring on the team that is in First Place in the Atlantic. On 12/18/2023 at 1:55 PM, Thorny said: Over here! I’m the one levelling heat! The one saying KA should break trend by doing what’s best for winning rather than slow playing development. Others are just saying, “well what messages did KA’s earlier in-action send? We aren’t making the playoffs, expect more of the same.” defeatist, let’s KA off the hook allowing the idea that nothing can/should be expected in season. This place is broken. By all means, listen to Brawndo calling it quits on the season after pumping KA’s tires all offseason. Send Levi down. Send Benson away. Always next year. Just get ready for him to be hyped up all offseason next year, and then another refusal to fight for anything when we aren’t, SHOCK, immediately a dynasty. I swear that’s what people think is going to happen: develop develop develop boom dynasty. If we can’t win it all this year, just give up. hey, we weren’t going to win the cup this year anyways. Pathetic. I am an Adams Supporter, I like how the front office has been revamped under him especially the analytics department. I they have gotten better at drafting and (gasp) development. You know what I didn’t like, the fact they basically decided to run it all back. The same roster, the same coaching staff and the same power play. The only difference was trying to play more defensively and that backfired spectacularly. And doing what’s best for winning? No level of this organization from the front office, the coaching staff which is making some boneheaded roster decisions or the players on this roster have given any indication they are doing what’s best for winning. The analytics, counting stats and the eye test all match up this team just plain sucks. They have regressed in almost every offensive metric. They have yet to give any indication that they can turn this around and actually compete for a playoff spot. No one gets a free pass on this season, not the players, the coaches and especially not Adams. The goal was the playoffs and they are well on their way to failing that objective. Sending Benson to WJCs would have had minimal effect on that. Furthermore if Levi does need to go back to Rochester because that is what is best for His development, then that’s what needs to happen. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Brawndo said: If taking the 10th ranked scorer off your team is going to that detrimental to your playoff chances, that gives you a great indication of what your playoff chances actually are. Pretty much the entire core of this team played for their country in the tournament and I doubt you will find a single player on the team that would have shown any resentment over sending Benson to the WJCs. Even in the extremely unlikely event they come close to the playoffs The WJCs are a vacation and overrated? It’s considered one of the most prestigious events for players, especially for Canadians. Talk to the players who have played for their country and see how overrated they think it is. Had they loaned Benson (who mentioned to Lance Lysowski playing in the World Juniors was a dream of his) it would had hardly been giving up. Out of all the prospects this organization has Levi is the one they can least afford to ***** up. At the time the team was rotating three goalies splitting practice and games. For a goaltender making the transition from college to pros this was the worse possible scenario for Him. I also have it on good authority that Levi’s Injury early this season was directly related to his usage to start the season If he is going to remain the starter in Buffalo and get the practice reps associated with it, fine keep him here. If it’s as a backup, then it’s best to send him down I’m pretty sure the Boston Bruins consider Matt Poitras a pro, yet they loaned Him to Team Canada and he is tied for 7th in scoring on the team that is in First Place in the Atlantic. I am an Adams Supporter, I like how the front office has been revamped under him especially the analytics department. I they have gotten better at drafting and (gasp) development. You know what I didn’t like, the fact they basically decided to run it all back. The same roster, the same coaching staff and the same power play. The only difference was trying to play more defensively and that backfired spectacularly. And doing what’s best for winning? No level of this organization from the front office, the coaching staff which is making some boneheaded roster decisions or the players on this roster have given any indication they are doing what’s best for winning. The analytics, counting stats and the eye test all match up this team just plain sucks. They have regressed in almost every offensive metric. They have yet to give any indication that they can turn this around and actually compete for a playoff spot. No one gets a free pass on this season, not the players, the coaches and especially not Adams. The goal was the playoffs and they are well on their way to failing that objective. Sending Benson to WJCs would have had minimal effect on that. Furthermore if Levi does need to go back to Rochester because that is what is best for His development, then that’s what needs to happen. Edited December 20, 2023 by Thorny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 A YouTube comment about Zach Benson: I would say Benson is more to this team that its 10th ranked scorer. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 52 minutes ago, Doohickie said: A YouTube comment about Zach Benson: I would say Benson is more to this team that its 10th ranked scorer. Couturier is a December Birthday and was 19 for a majority of his rookie season which was his D+1 year. He was also listed at 6’4” 195 lbs in draft guides He went to the WJCs his draft year a few weeks after turning 18 and had 3 points in 7 games. Benson is on pace to outscore Couturier’s Rookie Year (He finished 11th on His Team), Couturier did have better metrics in His Rookie Season than Benson does to this point . Benson mentioned playing in the NHL is a dream come true, He also mentioned playing for Team Canada in the WJCs is dream for Him. Adams has mentioned that the organization’s goal is to build a winner starting in Rochester. The Amerks, who are in a dogfight for a playoff spot in the North Division just sent the leading goal scorer in the AHL for His third consecutive WJCs because Kulich asked to go. Benson should have had the same option imho. In two weeks he would have come back with the silver medal and had a stronger finish season with the Sabres. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 I believe the team should fight tooth and nail till the very end to make the playoffs. I also believe Kevin Adams should fight tooth and nail till the last whistle to help this team make the playoffs. I’m hesitant to say KA has done that so far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, bunomatic said: I’m hesitant to say KA has done that so far. How can you say that? Didn't he add the great Mr. Robinson to the neighborhood? Edited December 26, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 9 hours ago, Brawndo said: Couturier is a December Birthday and was 19 for a majority of his rookie season which was his D+1 year. He was also listed at 6’4” 195 lbs in draft guides He went to the WJCs his draft year a few weeks after turning 18 and had 3 points in 7 games. Benson is on pace to outscore Couturier’s Rookie Year (He finished 11th on His Team), Couturier did have better metrics in His Rookie Season than Benson does to this point . Benson mentioned playing in the NHL is a dream come true, He also mentioned playing for Team Canada in the WJCs is dream for Him. Adams has mentioned that the organization’s goal is to build a winner starting in Rochester. The Amerks, who are in a dogfight for a playoff spot in the North Division just sent the leading goal scorer in the AHL for His third consecutive WJCs because Kulich asked to go. Benson should have had the same option imho. In two weeks he would have come back with the silver medal and had a stronger finish season with the Sabres. I'm in agreement. Benson should have been allowed to go to the WJC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: I'm in agreement. Benson should have been allowed to go to the WJC. I understand the arguments both ways and my emotional decision was not to send him because it implied to me another sign of not being serious about winning. My feelings have since changed. He should have been allowed to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: I'm in agreement. Benson should have been allowed to go to the WJC. Did Benson want to go rather than stay with the Sabres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 9 minutes ago, JohnC said: Did Benson want to go rather than stay with the Sabres? If you were an 18 year old employee making a six figure salary would you tell a company vice-president you wanted to leave for a couple of weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 I would take this on a different track. As a veteran on the team (the Okposos, EJs, Girgs, etc.) I would have told Benson to go -- we'll win while you're away, we've got your back --- and also spoken with coach/GM to make it happen. Benson should be on Canada's top line this week. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said: I would take this on a different track. As a veteran on the team (the Okposos, EJs, Girgs, etc.) I would have told Benson to go -- we'll win while you're away, we've got your back --- and also spoken with coach/GM to make it happen. Benson should be on Canada's top line this week. If we had that kind of leadership wouldn't you expect a more consistent effort night in and night out? Benson should have been allowed to go, but I understand a GM not wanting a prize player to leave and get injured at the tourney. That said this season is already done, might as well have let the kid go. I guess KA figures the kid (and Levi) will play for Canada at Worlds once the Sabres are eliminated from playoff contention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewookie1 Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 If Benson would have gone, this thread would be about how Adams is not serious about winning and all that. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kas23 Posted December 26, 2023 Report Share Posted December 26, 2023 Do we have any reliable sources that Benson was told he could not go? Or that it was never offered to him by the FO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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