Sabres Trade Ilya Lyubushkin to Anaheim for a 2025 4th Round Pick

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The coach lost confidence in all of them except for 26, 23 and 25.  

I agree that Boosh's agent probably pushed for a trade and Adams put the "want to be here" policy into effect.  

The hopeful news is that R. Johnson and Novikov could  be legit NHL players and will pass Bryson and Clague.  Until then, we are back to very thin with Stillman at 7, and Bryson/Clague and 8/9.  

From the likeable Russian's standpoint, being dealt to Anaheim is a better situation for him. I don't know what the timeline is but the two prospects you mentioned will eventually bypass the other marginal defenders. I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan Johnson becomes the first defensive callup. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that he makes the Sabre roster when camp breaks up. 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Going into the third with the lead, who knows, he is better than Jillson was

Who knows indeed. But as a 7th D man he wouldn’t have been Jillson’s replacement. He would have replaced the first of the three defensemen to get hurt in that series (Numminen, Lydman, or Tallinder), before Jillson was even called up. 

[Porous Five Hole]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Except we traded a 3rd rounder (Bloom) for Stillman and then dumped Boosh for a 4th rounder. Boosh is better than Stillman so net result we downgraded our D and got a lower draft pick. 

I don’t look at it that way.  
Boosh was not better than Stillman. They’re the same player except that Stillman had positive advanced metrics with us last season and makes less…while Boosh has the worst impacts on the team. Yes, worse then Bryson. 
 

Plus that cap space could still come in handy.  

[DarthEbriate]

7 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

I wouldn’t count on it, the Ducks were one of the teams with worse defensive play than the Sabres last year

That's just it. He could have a bounce back season with Anaheim or he may simply look better in comparison to the rest of them. It only takes one playoff team to think he's the injury replacement they desperately need to rent for a run to get a 2nd.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

Wow if you are going to dig that dip in the minutia to find something to be outraged about then good luck being happy about anything.

I'm not "outraged" about it, I'm just saying that it's bad asset management. We didn't get better with these deckchair rearrangements, we got worse. It's just dumb. 

[PerreaultForever]

43 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I don’t look at it that way.  
Boosh was not better than Stillman. They’re the same player except that Stillman had positive advanced metrics with us last season and makes less…while Boosh has the worst impacts on the team. Yes, worse then Bryson. 
 

Plus that cap space could still come in handy.  

Right, cause we've been using all that cap space to make us better. Definitely need a few more million for this year. 

Metrics, metrics, metrics. I don't care about metrics. I care about winning and playoffs. Stillman better than Boosh is just dumbass. 

26 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

That's just it. He could have a bounce back season with Anaheim or he may simply look better in comparison to the rest of them. It only takes one playoff team to think he's the injury replacement they desperately need to rent for a run to get a 2nd.

Almost guaranteed Anaheim will flip him at the deadline for more than the price they paid for him. 

[IKnowPhysics]

On 8/18/2023 at 6:33 PM, LGR4GM said:

But, why?

That's why.

 

That's also why.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

It doesn't matter whether it is Bush, Clague, Bryson or Stillman. On this team they are at best fourth pairing or utility players. Whether you deduct A or B or C or D, why get so exercised over the departure? Bush moving to Anaheim is a better situation for him. You should be happy for him. I wish him well. 

Considering we don't know what Johnson has left in the tank and Jokiharju is a (very) poor man's Dahlin or Power with significant issues in transition back into his own zone and in 5v5 in zone coverage (though he is good at in zone PK coverage, go figure) you can say Lyubushkin is at absolute best the 7 on this team but it wasn't necessarily the case.

Neglecting the politics that come with those 2 players pencilled in on the 3rd pairing, there were 3 players on this roster that could've been either the 5 or 6.  Plus, this team will NOT have the D remain as healthy as the F's were last year.  They need at least 8 guys that can take a regular shift for long stretches and neither Bryson nor Clague give one the "warm fuzzies" should they need to play in 10 or so consecutive games.  (1 game, sure; 2 games, maybe.  But no way is it a good thing to have either of those in the lineup for a long stretch.)

Still hoping this was the move that's a precursor to another D man coming in.  That puts Stillman back into the 8 spot and Johnson and Jokiharju rotating into the 6 from the 7.  With Clague, Bryson, and Johnson available to be the 3rd guy brought in for a couple of games when the injury bug is severe.  Otherwise, they just made it substantially harder to win games when Samuelsson and X are out.  Which we all know is almost assuredly going to happen at some point.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's a question of style of play and what we need to compliment our 2 shiny first overall D men. Joker moves the puck better, but he's not a better D man. Boosh's stats are partly the result of the situations he was put in. He's a bottom pairing guy.

See, I look at what we've done now and the D isn't all that different from what it was. I'm not convinced Johnson has anything left. If he does, great, then we have upgraded, but I need to see that before I believe it. Clifton is a slightly better version of Boosh but not all that different. So I think he can play with Power but by taking Boosh away your pairings are only slightly upgraded now. Joker/Johnson as my bottom pairing does not impress me. 

Well, their 3rd pair last year was Boosh and Bryson.  They were pretty bad.  I think Joker/Johnson will be far superior (same for Clifton/Johnson if Joki beats out Clifton for the spot with Power).  FWIW, Joki's fancystats weren't very good, but they were materially better than Boosh's for the most part.

Overall, I think there's reason for optimism about a broad improvement on D -- another year of experience for Power and Mule (plus Dahlin and Joki), upgrades to Boosh and Bryson in Clifton and Johnson, playing better and with more confidence in front of Levi, greater emphasis on team D from the coaches, etc.

 

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Considering we don't know what Johnson has left in the tank and Jokiharju is a (very) poor man's Dahlin or Power with significant issues in transition back into his own zone and in 5v5 in zone coverage (though he is good at in zone PK coverage, go figure) you can say Lyubushkin is at absolute best the 7 on this team but it wasn't necessarily the case.

Neglecting the politics that come with those 2 players pencilled in on the 3rd pairing, there were 3 players on this roster that could've been either the 5 or 6.  Plus, this team will NOT have the D remain as healthy as the F's were last year.  They need at least 8 guys that can take a regular shift for long stretches and neither Bryson nor Clague give one the "warm fuzzies" should they need to play in 10 or so consecutive games.  (1 game, sure; 2 games, maybe.  But no way is it a good thing to have either of those in the lineup for a long stretch.)

Still hoping this was the move that's a precursor to another D man coming in.  That puts Stillman back into the 8 spot and Johnson and Jokiharju rotating into the 6 from the 7.  With Clague, Bryson, and Johnson available to be the 3rd guy brought in for a couple of games when the injury bug is severe.  Otherwise, they just made it substantially harder to win games when Samuelsson and X are out.  Which we all know is almost assuredly going to happen at some point.

I've said it in my original posts on this topic that I would have preferred keeping Lyubush. But that didn't happen. With the addition of Johnson and Clifton it became clear that the Russian was dropped to the fourth pairing. Is Boosh much better than Clague? Maybe so, but not significantly so. The one attribute that Byson and Stillman have is that they are faster and better skaters. They are more suitable to skate the puck out of their zone. The obvious weakness is that in their zone they don't offer much muscle to move players out. That's the tradeoff, speed over muscle. It seems that it is a system preference that our HC prefers.

With respect to the possibility that the movement of the Russian is a precursor to another addition on the blue line---my guess is no. If another player is needed to filI in, I would think that it would be Ryan Johnson. It is well known that KA's first inclination is to work from within the system. If another low pairing player is needed due to injury/injuries there are plenty of bottom pairing players who can be had for a low price, as was demonstrated by the return on Lyubuskkin. 

 

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, their 3rd pair last year was Boosh and Bryson.  They were pretty bad.  I think Joker/Johnson will be far superior (same for Clifton/Johnson if Joki beats out Clifton for the spot with Power).  FWIW, Joki's fancystats weren't very good, but they were materially better than Boosh's for the most part.

Overall, I think there's reason for optimism about a broad improvement on D -- another year of experience for Power and Mule (plus Dahlin and Joki), upgrades to Boosh and Bryson in Clifton and Johnson, playing better and with more confidence in front of Levi, greater emphasis on team D from the coaches, etc.

 

I'm not going to argue against it being slightly better than last year, just that it's now not all that much better and really not that deep either. imo our D just isn't good enough and to take away a decent shot blocker when you are planning to run with a rookie goalie doesn't seem very smart to me. It implies to me that we still think we can win by being all run and gun on offense and hope and pray on D. I was hoping for more of a (necessary imo) shift towards defensive responsibility this year to go along with our O. Now I have my doubts. 

[thewookie1]

I’m still in the camp that they traded Bush so he could play more and be nice to the guy. It weakens our depth a bit but certainly gives us a good appearance with potential future signees that we do at least try to keep players happy

[Randall Flagg]

22 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I’m still in the camp that they traded Bush so he could play more and be nice to the guy. It weakens our depth a bit but certainly gives us a good appearance with potential future signees that we do at least try to keep players happy

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I’m still in the camp that they traded Bush so he could play more and be nice to the guy. It weakens our depth a bit but certainly gives us a good appearance with potential future signees that we do at least try to keep players happy

Lol.  So you are saying KA put Bush’s needs ahead of those of the franchise he runs?  The 7th D spot is an important role on a contending team.  Odds are that the 7th D will probably play 3/4 of the season or more.  The trade also diminished the camp competition for the 6th slot. My guess is Bush would rather play for a contender and compete for a starters job here than be banished to a cellar dweller.    

Edited August 21, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[thewookie1]

16 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lol.  So you are saying KA put Bush’s needs ahead of those of the franchise he runs?  The 7th D spot is an important role on a contending team.  Odds are that the 7th D will probably play 3/4 of the season or more.  The trade also diminished the camp competition for the 6th slot. My guess is Bush would rather play for a contender and compete for a starters job there than be banished to a cellar dweller.    

 

Bush can't play LHD more than likely which would of hurt his value.

[triumph_communes]

Joki and Power were not a good fit. 

[LabattBlue]

9 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

I’m still in the camp that they traded Bush so he could play more and be nice to the guy. It weakens our depth a bit but certainly gives us a good appearance with potential future signees that we do at least try to keep players happy

At some point this “we only want players who want to be here” and “nice guy GM treats players right” should stop.  Not every player is on a team that is their #1 choice.  Don’t like it?  Tough…suck it up buttercup. 

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

At some point this “we only want players who want to be here” and “nice guy GM treats players right” should stop.  Not every player is on a team that is their #1 choice.  Don’t like it?  Tough…suck it up buttercup. 

Well until we are a playoff team, we have to play nice to create a good league opinion of us. It is however a bit of a catch-22 since we lose solid depth that could help us become a playoff team. Its just one of those balancing acts a GM has to do.

Plus I don't understand why we are handwringing over a 7D; its not like we dumped Skinner on the side of the road.

[GASabresIUFAN]

43 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Well until we are a playoff team, we have to play nice to create a good league opinion of us. It is however a bit of a catch-22 since we lose solid depth that could help us become a playoff team. Its just one of those balancing acts a GM has to do.

Plus I don't understand why we are handwringing over a 7D; its not like we dumped Skinner on the side of the road.

It’s not handwringing, but an honest assessment and a little frustration that this move is a small step in the wrong direction.  KA took two large positive steps forward by adding Clifton and Johnson, but we all know how important D depth is to surviving a long season.  When you trade away your top depth piece it’s reasonable to question why.

Prior to the trade my view of the Sabres D was as follows:

1) High Caliber top 3 - Dahlin, Power, And Mule

2) good players with upside - Clifton

3) Solid Veteran depth - Johnson

4) NHL depth - Jokiharju and Lyubushkin

5) AAAA players -Bryson, Stillman and Clague

From my standpoint we have removed a legit NHL player and elevated a AAAA player to his role.  Without a corresponding positive move, this trade is a step in the wrong direction.

In all honesty, I did expect a move such as this after last season, but I thought it would be Joki and as part of a deal to bring in goaltending help or a partner for Power.  Once he added D through free agency, I thought the plan had changed to insure good NHL depth and create competition for the 6th slot.  

I guess the hope is Stillman steps up and plays to the level he did when with Florida a few years ago. I’m also hopefully that KA was clearing cap to add Hellebuyck. 🙂

Edited August 21, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

Mattias Samuelsson shouldn't be placed in a tier with Dahlin and Power.

[Mustache of God]

Reading this thread makes me happy seeing that Jokijarju is now a 3rd paining defensemen. I feel more comfortable having him have to slot up in the top two pairings in the event of injury instead of Boosh. 

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lol.  So you are saying KA put Bush’s needs ahead of those of the franchise he runs?  The 7th D spot is an important role on a contending team.  Odds are that the 7th D will probably play 3/4 of the season or more.  The trade also diminished the camp competition for the 6th slot. My guess is Bush would rather play for a contender and compete for a starters job here than be banished to a cellar dweller.    

Every player has a different approach to the game so it is difficult to generalize. But I would think that most players would rather get a lot of playing time and a higher role on a non-contending team than be a marginal player with limited ice-time on a contending team. Pro athletes are competitive and want to play rather than sit on the bench. At the end of last season Boosh got little playing time. I'm sure he wasn't happy about that. Anaheim is simply a better situation for him and an inconsequential (replaceable) loss. 

[Doohickie]

12 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lol.  So you are saying KA put Bush’s needs ahead of those of the franchise he runs?  The 7th D spot is an important role on a contending team.  Odds are that the 7th D will probably play 3/4 of the season or more.  The trade also diminished the camp competition for the 6th slot. My guess is Bush would rather play for a contender and compete for a starters job here than be banished to a cellar dweller.    

Getting rid of Boosh and actually getting something back was in the best interests of the franchise.  He had to thin the herd and statistically Boosh wasn't the 7th best Dman on the team.  If he was clearly better than the other pine riders you'd have point but he had his warts too.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Mattias Samuelsson shouldn't be placed in a tier with Dahlin and Power.

Well look at that, we actually agree on something. This might be a first. 

[K-9]

The more I analyze the metrics, it is clear that Boosh was handicapping Bryson. 
 

🤫