Would you trade Devon Levi for Connor Hellebuyck with a contract extension?

[French Collection]

This was a poll question, not an actual trade proposal. I have to remind myself of this because I can feel my blood pressure rising while thinking about this.

There are worse than dumb and dumber odds KA does this.

I still want him to be in on Helle and Hart if they are available. This would show me he isn’t set on Comrie/UPL with Levi.

[Doohickie]

5 hours ago, klos1963 said:

I didn't even mention UPL, this was about Levi and Hellebuyck.  

Not sure how you got there.

You were criticizing Levi because he's not huge and, quoting you now, "It's not a small goalies game anymore."

So if you like big goalies, UPL must be your guy, right?

 

The point I was making, if you're still not getting is there are big goalies that aren't that good and smaller goalies that are.  Have you caught up yet?

[klos1963]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

You were criticizing Levi because he's not huge and, quoting you now, "It's not a small goalies game anymore."

So if you like big goalies, UPL must be your guy, right?

 

The point I was making, if you're still not getting is there are big goalies that aren't that good and smaller goalies that are.  Have you caught up yet?

So you understood that to mean that all big goalies are great ? 

If I thought UPL was the guy,  I likely would have said so.  

I read you comments and they're usually worth reading,  this one wasn't one of them.  

 

[PASabreFan]

20 hours ago, Marvin said:

I don't want that!  Call me a loser, drat it!  I want the Sabres never to win anything because I am a miserable, self-pitying incel and want others to wallow in misery with me!

This is the worst take I have ever seen from you, bar none.  People are giving reasons for other ideas and all you can see is everyone being brainwashed.  It is as bad as the people who tell me that I want to destroy America because I don't blindly support Trump/Biden.

Addendum: the passive-aggressive ad hominem attacks have got old.

Ad hominem attacks are against a person and not that person's position. I am attacking the position that, literally, subjugates winning now in favor of winning in the future.

I'm sorry... I have to seriously question why someone wouldn't want to solve a longstanding lineup question with an established NHL star over an unproven kid.

Anywho it ain't happening but it's still revealing. (The big reason it ain't happening is bc if it did happen it would immediately start the clock on KA accepting the assistant clubhouse manager position at Clarence CC.)

[Archie Lee]

13 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Ad hominem attacks are against a person and not that person's position. I am attacking the position that, literally, subjugates winning now in favor of winning in the future.

I'm sorry... I have to seriously question why someone wouldn't want to solve a longstanding lineup question with an established NHL star over an unproven kid.

Anywho it ain't happening but it's still revealing. (The big reason it ain't happening is bc if it did happen it would immediately start the clock on KA accepting the assistant clubhouse manager position at Clarence CC.)

You are right that it would “start the clock”, but the clock is probably starting in the next 12 months regardless. Also, I think that to say that is the “big reason” it won’t happen is to dismiss that there is an actual thought-out and long-term plan in place 

If Hellebuyck is available the price will be high. We can meet it, but it will be painful. There are contenders who will want him. Also, an extension will likely be in the Skinner range for AAV. This puts us in cap trouble earlier than we need to be. 

There are good reasons to not acquire Hellebuyck that go beyond the GM delaying expectations and protecting his job.  

[ddaryl]

19 hours ago, klos1963 said:

The question was 1 for 1, with an extension.

Not any other scenarios. 

There's a chance,  not sure a 'damn good' chance.  

He's pretty damn small, that gives me great concern. It's not a small goalies game anymore. 

 

 

Levi is not like other goalies... If you watch his game he tracks the puck better then most Gs I've seen, His ability to move from side to side is also impressive. I've seen lighting quick cross ice passes and Levi tracks the puck well here gets to the other side of the net and is set up before the shooter shoots. You can't teach that, that's an ability that Levi does at a very high level.

I would not trade Levi 1 for 1 for anyone outside McDavid, and even thats not what the team needs.

Basically watch all the tape on Levi you can.... You can see what he brings and you saw it under intense pressure at the mend of last season for the Sabres... 5 wins 2 losses and one of those losses our D really hung him out to dry

[Marvin]

15 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Ad hominem attacks are against a person and not that person's position. I am attacking the position that, literally, subjugates winning now in favor of winning in the future.

I'm sorry... I have to seriously question why someone wouldn't want to solve a longstanding lineup question with an established NHL star over an unproven kid.

Anywho it ain't happening but it's still revealing. (The big reason it ain't happening is bc if it did happen it would immediately start the clock on KA accepting the assistant clubhouse manager position at Clarence CC.)

You called me and others wolho would not make that particular trade "brainwashed."  That is as ad hominem as it gets.

I want to get Hellebuyck, Saros, or any of the solid to excellent goaltenders on rebuilding teams with 1-3 years remaining on their contracts.  I absolutely positively do not want to go into next season with The Three Headed Monster in goal.

But I am also planning for a few years down the road.  If we trade 21 year old Levi for 30 year old Hellebucyk, what do we do when Hellebucyk wants a 6-8 year contract after next season (my guess: 6x$8M with a full NMC).  His performance is likely to start falling, perhaps sharply, about 2 years into this contract, so if I traded for him and signed him, I will be needing a new goalkeeper by 2026, whence the Sabres will again need to get another goaltender.  Levi is likely to be better than Comrie and UPL by then (if not already), so I want him here to be ready and I find other pieces to trade for a goaltender.  That does not even count the non-zero probability that the goalie we acquire is worse in Buffalo for some reason like Miller was in St. Louis.

Aside: for the top goalkeepers, it is likely that other GMs will insist on Levi as part of their package.  For me, that is a complete non-starter.  I am looking for the one who costs me less than UPL, Rosen, and Rousek.  (And that is a painfully high price.)  Someone like Arizona might take that for Vemejlka.

IMHO, trading Levi for another goaltender puts the Sabres into an unacceptable position in about 3 years.  That is too short a time for my blood.

[MISabresFan]

No

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Ad hominem attacks are against a person and not that person's position. I am attacking the position that, literally, subjugates winning now in favor of winning in the future.

I'm sorry... I have to seriously question why someone wouldn't want to solve a longstanding lineup question with an established NHL star over an unproven kid.

Anywho it ain't happening but it's still revealing. (The big reason it ain't happening is bc if it did happen it would immediately start the clock on KA accepting the assistant clubhouse manager position at Clarence CC.)

I didn’t like your take because the range of discussion is limited to only A or B. So people’s opinions weren’t really telling at all.  
I disagree with the trade proposal because I am only confident that Helle is better than Levi for the next two seasons…and the Sabres window is larger than that.  

When options C or D come into play, it makes moving on from Levi for Helle (or anyone) even less appealing. 

[Doohickie]

12 hours ago, klos1963 said:

So you understood that to mean that all big goalies are great ? 

If I thought UPL was the guy,  I likely would have said so.  

I read you comments and they're usually worth reading,  this one wasn't one of them. 

My real point is that you seem to think a small goalie can't make it in the NHL and my point was that size isn't necessarily an indicator of success.  I just got too cute in saying it.

[Thorny]

11 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Ad hominem attacks are against a person and not that person's position. I am attacking the position that, literally, subjugates winning now in favor of winning in the future.

I'm sorry... I have to seriously question why someone wouldn't want to solve a longstanding lineup question with an established NHL star over an unproven kid.

Anywho it ain't happening but it's still revealing. (The big reason it ain't happening is bc if it did happen it would immediately start the clock on KA accepting the assistant clubhouse manager position at Clarence CC.)

I agree with a lot of this, but I think another thing at play here that I’ve personally come to realize lately, that lends an alternate explanation is: many people just really, really like Levi. He’s not really an “if”, it’s when he becomes better than Connor Hellebuyck, and the reasons being used to explain why we don’t want him make sense within that context, and don’t necessarily point to fear of expectations.

Hell, the expectations being ladled onto young Levi are downright brazen 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Thorny

[DarthEbriate]

53 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Hell, the expectations being ladled onto young Levi are downright brazen 

Levi is our princess, trade-child of Reino Samidala. He gives us...

 

[CTJoe]

would love to get Saros or Hellebuyck but there's no way in the world I would include Levi in a trade for him.  I put Levi in the same untradeable bucket as Dahlin, Power, Cozens, Tage and Tuck.

[klos1963]

9 hours ago, Doohickie said:

My real point is that you seem to think a small goalie can't make it in the NHL and my point was that size isn't necessarily an indicator of success.  I just got too cute in saying it.

I like Levi, but i think his size is a legit concern. I hope I'm wrong. I'll just keep having thoughts of Roger Crozier.  KA ain't gonna trade him anyway.

[Believer]

Nope… Levi fits with our young Turks roster of developing future stars… and Stanley Cup Champs.

[PerreaultForever]

The people that voted yes need to be punished severely. 

No. Absolutely not. 

[Zamboni]

4 hours ago, klos1963 said:

I like Levi, but i think his size is a legit concern. I hope I'm wrong. I'll just keep having thoughts of Roger Crozier.  KA ain't gonna trade him anyway.

I don’t view Levi as a small goalie. At all. He’s no UPL or Ben Bishop, but Levi is on the low end of average. “Smaller” yes.

https://www.nhl.com/news/shorter-goalies-find-niche-in-what-has-become-big-mans-position-in-nhl/c-297239132
 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Zamboni

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Zamboni said:

I don’t view Levi as a small goalie. At all. He’s no UPL or Ben Bishop, but Levi is on the low end of average. “Smaller” yes.

https://www.nhl.com/news/shorter-goalies-find-niche-in-what-has-become-big-mans-position-in-nhl/c-297239132
 

 

Levi is closer to those smallest numbers than he is to the average numbers.  He definitely is a small goalie.  It’s ok.

[Zamboni]

16 minutes ago, Curt said:

Levi is closer to those smallest numbers than he is to the average numbers.  He definitely is a small goalie.  It’s ok.

And it’s ok that I don’t view him as a small goalie. 

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

And it’s ok that I don’t view him as a small goalie. 

It just seems factually incorrect.  I guess my question is, why don’t you view him as a small goalie?

[Zamboni]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

It just seems factually incorrect.  I guess my question is, why don’t you view him as a small goalie?

I just view guys like Vanbeisbrouck, Irbe, Cloutier, and Pang as short goalies. I’ll have my opinion on Levi. It’s ok.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Zamboni

[wildman72]

Heck no! Use Hellebuyck to mentor Levi. That's it. Other than that, Levi is someone to build the team with. Getting tired of the Sabres trading everything away for short term fixes. Look at Ullmark!! Trade him away, then he is one of the best goalies in the league with Boston. They trade away gold before it becomes great.

[Zamboni]

13 minutes ago, wildman72 said:

Heck no! Use Hellebuyck to mentor Levi. That's it. Other than that, Levi is someone to build the team with. Getting tired of the Sabres trading everything away for short term fixes. Look at Ullmark!! Trade him away, then he is one of the best goalies in the league with Boston. They trade away gold before it becomes great.

Are you 100% positive Ullmark would be the same goalie in front of the Sabres team if he never left, as he is in front of the Bruins team?

 

personally I am 99% positive Ullmark would be worse in Buffalo than Boston. By a lot.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Zamboni

[Night Train]

8 minutes ago, wildman72 said:

Look at Ullmark!! Trade him away, then he is one of the best goalies in the league with Boston. They trade away gold before it becomes great.

 I think Ullmark is OK to good with a great regular season team in front of him. The team went flat in the playoffs and he didn't play well at all. Yanked. Sort of exposed. He can enjoy his regular season awards. No one can sell me on how "great" he is. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Night Train

[Weave]

1 hour ago, wildman72 said:

Heck no! Use Hellebuyck to mentor Levi. That's it. Other than that, Levi is someone to build the team with. Getting tired of the Sabres trading everything away for short term fixes. Look at Ullmark!! Trade him away, then he is one of the best goalies in the league with Boston. They trade away gold before it becomes great.

Umm, we didn’t trade Ulmark away.  He left of his own volition.