That Aud Smell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, WildCard said: Well that's what I'm asking: Is the new stadium essentially the same (appearance, functionality, location) with just upgrades or is there something different/unique about it compared to the Ralph (bowl design, window features, bleacher seats, etc) The stadiums appear to be the "essentially the same" insofar as they are intended to serve the function of hosting NFL football games and perhaps some other major stadium tours. The details on design are limited so far, but it seems clear that the 2 facilities will not be the same in any meaningful ways. The new stadium will be substantially covered by roofing elements that will protect most fans from rain. The field will be grass. The footprint will be an additional 600K sf larger (?) than the existing stadium. 7 minutes ago, WildCard said: 60-62k seats compared to the ~72k the Ralph currently holds. That's a travesty. There's a party deck for GA that brings capacity to closer to 70K. This is also a settled trend in modern stadiums -- fewer seats, higher margins on the seats (suites, etc.) that you sell. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 56 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: The field will be grass. !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 1 hour ago, MattPie said: So what you're saying is if the stadium was privately funded, the revenue from the Bills and related stadium events wouldn't have to go towards paying back interest and loans and could be used to other priorities? It's not like the revenue would go away if the public didn't fund the stadium and it got built using loans or whatever other other means the private entities have. ‘? Not sure what your asking. If the stadium was privately funded, the income would go to the Bills and the other private investors. The county/state would receive RE and sales tax revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 1 hour ago, WildCard said: 60-62k seats compared to the ~72k the Ralph currently holds. That's a travesty. Almost all recent stadiums come in at around 65,000+ or minus a little bit. that seems to be in line, without even accounting for market size. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 18 minutes ago, SDS said: Almost all recent stadiums come in at around 65,000+ or minus a little bit. that seems to be in line, without even accounting for market size. Interesting. You, Aud, Flagg and Pie brought up good points; my initial thought simply was 12k less fans hurts the experience, and 12k less tickets raises the price for the average fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 34 minutes ago, WildCard said: Interesting. You, Aud, Flagg and Pie brought up good points; my initial thought simply was 12k less fans hurts the experience, and 12k less tickets raises the price for the average fan. But it also guarantees more sellouts so that other fans can watch at home. (edit: this is probably a non-issue since the NFL stopped the policy in 2014, but they’ve been doing this year to year. It’s hard to imagine they would go back to it.) Honestly, I think modern-day NFL stadiums should be on the order of 25,000 seats. The future is smaller attendance, not bigger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SDS said: But it also guarantees more sellouts so that other fans can watch at home. Honestly, I think modern-day NFL stadiums should be on the order of 25,000 seats. The future is smaller attendance, not bigger. 25k is pretty wild lol How does the sellout guarantee fans at home can watch it? The NFL does do blackouts based on attendence anymore. Edit: My replies also have this big empty block at the end now. Any idea why that might be? Edited March 28, 2022 by WildCard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, WildCard said: 25k is pretty wild lol How does the sellout guarantee fans at home can watch it? The NFL does do blackouts based on attendence anymore. Edit: My replies also have this big empty block at the end now. Any idea why that might be? Have they officially implemented the new policy or is it still year to year? I guess the toothpaste is out of the tube now and they probably can’t go back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 28 minutes ago, SDS said: Honestly, I think modern-day NFL stadiums should be on the order of 25,000 seats. The future is smaller attendance, not bigger. And live-betting lounges. Tons of live-betting lounges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calti Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: And live-betting lounges. Tons of live-betting lounges. naturally... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: And live-betting lounges. Tons of live-betting lounges. They need to be set up hunger game style, like when the two of them were practicing their skills for the potential sponsors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 28 minutes ago, SDS said: Have they officially implemented the new policy or is it still year to year? I guess the toothpaste is out of the tube now and they probably can’t go back. Not sure I had thought it was permanent though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 20 minutes ago, calti said: naturally... 12 minutes ago, SDS said: They need to be set up hunger game style, like when the two of them were practicing their skills for the potential sponsors. the future experience of live sports spectating is unknown, probably unknowable -- but it almost certainly is going to be weird by current standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 Bills match the Bears offer sheet for Ryan Bates, sign him to a 4 year deal. Nice depth/possible starting guard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Whether to have the Bills or not or to build them a stadium or not is a question for the people of Erie County. It doesn’t change the fact that this is a non-issue to the taxpayers as they will not bear this burden. Counties also generally don’t issue debt to fund programming. They are mostly funded with sales tax revenue and RE taxes. Most county debt is revenue type bonds issued to build schools, hospitals, water systems etc…. and these stadium bonds will not limit Erie’s ability to do these projects as well. Saying that this $850 mill could be diverted to other things is simply untrue. This money is only being raised for the stadium and if they weren’t building the stadium the bonds wouldn’t be issued at all. How will the taxpayers not bear the burden? The state and county will incur a huge amount of new debt. Even if the stadium generates enough income to pay the interest -- which is questionable -- it certainly won't generate enough to pay down the principal. And there is a limited amount of debt the state and county can incur -- at some point investors will decide they are over-leveraged and stop buying the muni bonds. 3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said: Certainly not the same (or even a similar) stadium. It's interesting that the $1.4B cost is the upfront number, and the state/county share of that is $850M. It's been reported that the State has ongoing capital improvement and maintenance costs that take the public share north of $1B, over time. I think it's also worth noting that the $1.4B is the total before overruns, which are certain to occur and to be substantial. I would bet that those are going to be funded primarily or entirely with public money too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, nfreeman said: How will the taxpayers not bear the burden? The state and county will incur a huge amount of new debt. Even if the stadium generates enough income to pay the interest -- which is questionable -- it certainly won't generate enough to pay down the principal. And there is a limited amount of debt the state and county can incur -- at some point investors will decide they are over-leveraged and stop buying the muni bonds. I think it's also worth noting that the $1.4B is the total before overruns, which are certain to occur and to be substantial. I would bet that those are going to be funded primarily or entirely with public money too. Most revenue bonds are not burdens of the issuing county or state but obligations only of the issuing authority. In this case it would be the Erie County Stadium authority. Some do carry a guarantee from the state or county, but this only comes into play if the project fails. In addition these bonds are typically issued with sinking funds. A portion of the revenue automatically goes to the sinking fund to retire the bonds over time. The revenue from the project should be more than enough to cover the interest and eventual principal payments or no rating agency would rate the bonds for public sale. As to the balance of the project over the $850 mill, the NFL is putting in 200 mill and PGE must match at least that amount. The article I read wasn't clear beyond that. As to other governmental projects, Erie County Schools has their own issuing authority. Others include the convention center, the water authority etc.. My guess is Kaleida Healthcare has one as well in partnership with Erie County. Each of these agencies carry their own debt limits and credit rating. PS For those wishing a greater understanding of muni bonds and how they work, I can be messaged privately. Edited March 28, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, nfreeman said: I think it's also worth noting that the $1.4B is the total before overruns, which are certain to occur and to be substantial. I would bet that those are going to be funded primarily or entirely with public money too. Hochul’s announcement today included a statement that the Pegulas would bear the risk of cost overruns — a term that she characterized as significant, IIRC. Edited March 28, 2022 by That Aud Smell 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 5 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Man, calling education and after school programs "your coveted social programs" is a hell of a statement. Feels odd to agree with you but here we are. There's almost no tangible financial benefit and multiple studies over the years show that. Last one I think was in 2014. Sure, there's assuredly an intangible benefit and yes I'm glad the Bills will be here going forward. Just commenting on the reality is all. Maybe I worded it poorly but no study says there is no benefit, just that the benefit doesn’t equal or exceed the investment. Nobody can say that having a team doesn’t produce any revenue. That number is somewhere between $200M and ?? but having a franchise produces some revenue over and above the discretionary funds that would be spent otherwise. Like I said, I don’t expect to change anyone’s minds and in a perfect world I would prefer no public funding but the world is less then perfect. Maybe we can debate how much less…., 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 51 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Most revenue bonds are not burdens of the issuing county or state but obligations only of the issuing authority. In this case it would be the Erie County Stadium authority. Some do carry a guarantee from the state or county, but this only comes into play if the project fails. In addition these bonds are typically issued with sinking funds. A portion of the revenue automatically goes to the sinking fund to retire the bonds over time. The revenue from the project should be more than enough to cover the interest and eventual principal payments or no rating agency would rate the bonds for public sale. As to the balance of the project over the $850 mill, the NFL is putting in 200 mill and PGE must match at least that amount. The article I read wasn't clear beyond that. As to other governmental projects, Erie County Schools has their own issuing authority. Others include the convention center, the water authority etc.. My guess is Kaleida Healthcare has one as well in partnership with Erie County. Each of these agencies carry their own debt limits and credit rating. PS For those wishing a greater understanding of muni bonds and how they work, I can be messaged privately. Good stuff. So will there be a state issuing authority and a separate county issuing authority? I'll be interested to see whether there will be state or county guarantees here, and how the principal repayment will be addressed. 25 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: Hochul’s announcement today included a statement that the Pegulas would bear the risk of cost overruns — a term that she characterized as significant, IIRC. Also good stuff. If true, it's another reason to thank TP, as this will end up pumping probably an extra $300MM or so of his money into local pockets (most of which will be unearned graft and embezzlement, but still). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, nfreeman said: Good stuff. So will there be a state issuing authority and a separate county issuing authority? I'll be interested to see whether there will be state or county guarantees here, and how the principal repayment will be addressed. Also good stuff. If true, it's another reason to thank TP, as this will end up pumping probably an extra $300MM or so of his money into local pockets (most of which will be unearned graft and embezzlement, but still). If the private and not public entity is responsible for overruns, I would bet that there will be much more care to ensure that there aren't many. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 Just now, Eleven said: If the private and not public entity is responsible for overruns, I would bet that there will be much more care to ensure that there aren't many. I remember taking a tour of Mercedes Benz stadium here in the Atl. In Arthur Blank’s private suite there is a painting and the background of the painting is all the checks he wrote for the completion of the stadium. I’ll add a photo of it when I find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 hours ago, WildCard said: Bills match the Bears offer sheet for Ryan Bates, sign him to a 4 year deal. Nice depth/possible starting guard. He's a starting guard with the new contract. You don't pay a backup 4M per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: He's a starting guard with the new contract. You don't pay a backup 4M per year. Fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalonill Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 Congratulations on the new Stadium . Not to be negative but it should have been a dome for you guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 Glad to hear they’re bringing back “Rick” Bates — I credit him for helping solidify the o-line in the latter part of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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