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The Sabres, Eichel, NHL and NHLPA had a meeting regarding Jack


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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I’m a fan, not the GM.

He does not have as good of a hand as you think he does.

Please describe your take on what Adams hand is like. I see a piece of paper with Jack's name signed to it until 2027.

Edited by PromoTheRobot
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Ok.  Lots of folks talking about the fact that Eichel is on contract and Sabres are in control.  Let’s not forget that Eichel does not help us by sitting on IR and his value will likely decrease if this drags into next season. 
 

At some point he has to play due to one of these scenarios: 

1.  Rest and rehab gets him on the ice 

2. Disc Fusion - Sabres or another team will agree to it and he does it 

3. Disc replacement- Sabres won’t agree to it and it’s very complicated to determine and agree on contractual changes were Eichel or another team accepts risks. 
 

We can feel good that KA did not get railroaded by Fish.  
We can hope that Eichel’s new agent can actually help to present him to other GMs better than Fish did. 

We are still in a tough place and Adams will likely have to lower his ask to transfer risk to another team.  
 

That is how I see it.  I was never optimistic of all the great trade scenarios conjured up in this thread.  I still see that a creative way to handle the injury uncertainty is needed. 

Edited by Pimlach
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3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Ok.  Lots of folks talking about the fact that Eichel is on contract and Sabres are in control.  Let’s not forget that Eichel does not help us by sitting on IR and his value will likely decrease if this drags into next season. 
 

At some point he has to play due to one of these scenarios: 

1.  Rest and rehab gets him on the ice 

2. Disc Fusion - Sabres or another team will agree to it and he does it 

3. Disc replacement- Sabres won’t agree to it and it’s very complicated to determine and agree on contractual changes were Eichel or another team accepts risks. 
 

We can feel good that KA did not get railroaded by Fish.  
We can hope that Eichel’s new agent can actually help to present him to other GMs better than Fish did. 

We are still in a tough place and Adams will likely have lower his ask to transfer risk to another team.  
 

That is how I see it.  I was never optimistic of all the great trade scenarios conjured up in this thread.  I still see that a creative way to handle the injury uncertainty is needed. 

Adams will have to come down some. I predict the winning package will be a blue-chip prospect, a younger prospect a few years away, an unprotected 1st and another mid-round pick.

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33 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Please describe your take on what Adams hand is like. I see a piece of paper with Jack's name signed to it until 2027.

He does indeed but Jack simply is not all that appealing of an asset right now. It appears offers are few and far between and none of them are all that meaningful. If that is indeed true it’s very clear Jack simply doesn’t have the value we all wish he did. I think the messaging from the Sabres and Jack’s former agents did a lot to deteriorate that and I’m hoping it can be remedied by new representation for the player. But right now his value is Jack Sh!t. It will likely take a fully healthy and high-performing #9 to get his value to the true Jack Eichel.

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42 minutes ago, Hoss said:

He does indeed but Jack simply is not all that appealing of an asset right now. It appears offers are few and far between and none of them are all that meaningful. If that is indeed true it’s very clear Jack simply doesn’t have the value we all wish he did. I think the messaging from the Sabres and Jack’s former agents did a lot to deteriorate that and I’m hoping it can be remedied by new representation for the player. But right now his value is Jack Sh!t. It will likely take a fully healthy and high-performing #9 to get his value to the true Jack Eichel.

True but he's not value-less. I think Jack went to Montreal for the Bio-Steel camp to show what kind of shape he's in right now. I'll bet there will be some private skates to demonstrate that as well. I do agree if something doesn't get done by the start of training camp then we are back at square one.

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6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

True but he's not value-less. I think Jack went to Montreal for the Bio-Steel camp was to show what kind of shape he's in right now. I'll bet there will be some private skates to demonstrate that as well. I do agree if something doesn't get done by the start of training camp then we are back at square one.

That camp could be an interesting wrinkle.

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37 minutes ago, Hoss said:

He does indeed but Jack simply is not all that appealing of an asset right now. It appears offers are few and far between and none of them are all that meaningful. If that is indeed true it’s very clear Jack simply doesn’t have the value we all wish he did. I think the messaging from the Sabres and Jack’s former agents did a lot to deteriorate that and I’m hoping it can be remedied by new representation for the player. But right now his value is Jack Sh!t. It will likely take a fully healthy and high-performing #9 to get his value to the true Jack Eichel.

And yet you're saying "just trade him already and move on". 

Good for Adams for sitting on the asset if the trade value isn't there. 

2 hours ago, Hoss said:

I’m a fan, not the GM.

He does not have as good of a hand as you think he does.

Lol, ok.

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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

And yet you're saying "just trade him already and move on". 

Good for Adams for sitting on the asset if the trade value isn't there. 

Lol, ok.

But at some point you have to realize his value is what teams will trade for him.  Just like a house, the value is what people pay, no matter how much you think it's worth. A player that is not physically ready to play doesn't have much value.

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On 8/29/2021 at 3:07 PM, Thorny said:

Good post. 

My question to you regarding the last line: do you think that the disconnect between the team and Eichel stemmed almost entirely from disagreement regarding the injury issue, and that, even had Adams and Eichel been on swell terms beforehand, we'd be sitting at a similar impasse, right now? Or do we think some of the friction on coming to terms on an agreeable injury treatment path stems from previous issues between the two sides? Is there room in your estimation for a potential Adams' decision to shop Jack being a contributing factor in the disconnect, which is so hampering a resolution? Or, are you A) certain the desire for a deal was purely initiated on Jack's part due to his reaction to failures of previous administrations, meaning that it was more less always heading towards a difficult situation for the current management group, and that the injury only served to throw another massive wrench in it, or B) think it's possible Adams may have made the decision to shop him but that it would have likely gone much more smoothly because, as mentioned, the true disconnect indeed didn't arise until the injury?

Basically, in your opinion and from what you've heard, was there anything KA could have done differently to make this work, up to and including deciding not to initiate a trade process, or was this really all Jack driven, with management further handcuffed by the injury?

Sorry I am late.

Assuming that Eichel has been, understandably, disgruntled for at least a couple of years, I see nothing wrong with GMKA initiating or having trade talks about him.  I think they decided to explore their options.  I infer that those who asked the Sabres about Eichel balked at the cost.

Given how poorly the season went, it can't have surprised anyone that Eichel wanted out.  If Eichel did not have the injury, it is almost certain that he would have been dealt by now.  If the season had gone better, the people I know think he would grouse about the surgery, but the situation would not be toxic -- but he might still have wanted out.

I think the disagreement about the neck injury was the clichéd straw which broke the camel's back.  Everyone I have spoken with thinks the only ways things turn out better is if the Sabres had traded Eichel before training camp or the Sabres had threatened the playoffs.  Once his neck became an issue, trading him for a fair return became unlikely.  GMKA being a rookie GM also plays into this: everyone else thought that they could stampede him into a bad trade; some still think so.

I think GMKA could have played it better by being amenable to short term cap dumps, although I heard that the opposition to pure cap dumps came from T&KP.  I personally would have allowed for useful but overpaid players to be part of any trade as long as the bulk of the package were acceptable; i.e., be less concerned about "blocking" youth.

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1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Given how poorly the season went, it can't have surprised anyone that Eichel wanted out.

Given that Eichel, his preference for FHCRFK and his injury are the reasons why the season went badly, I really don't care what Eichel wants.  Seriously... he's not happy with his career right now?  Look in the mirror, Jack.

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On 8/29/2021 at 5:52 PM, Hoss said:

Maybe it’s because I’m battling covid and I can’t even think straight but no matter how many times I read your question I don’t understand what you’re saying lol

Good luck, man.  I am still not 100% after 20 months.

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This is becoming ROR part 2.

Top line centers on long-term deals, check.  Both want out of town due to losing, check.  Management is also inclined to trade them, check.  Circumstances that limit trade value to the Sabres; ROR's bonus and Jack's injury coupled with the NMC clause kicking in next summer.  At least ROR was healthy.  That deal should almost serve as a reference point for what we can expect for Jack if he was healthy.  We basically received a 1st and a good prospect plus two contracts on marginal NHL players.  

Again this isn't happening unless someone is willing to take on the liability of the surgery.  Taking the $8 mill bonus hit was a much easier pill to swallow.  

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7 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Given that Eichel, his preference for FHCRFK and his injury are the reasons why the season went badly, I really don't care what Eichel wants.  Seriously... he's not happy with his career right now?  Look in the mirror, Jack.

Lol Eichel is not the reason the season went badly 

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17 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I would just like to see him bring some players in that improve the team.  Very nervous about the roster when looking at C and G.  

Relax, we don’t judge management around here based on silly things like winning or assembling a competent roster.

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17 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Same.

It will happen eventually, but this season was never about winning anyway.

I don’t understand why “sharpen your point” was the slogan selection of choice when “this season was never about winning anyway” was RIGHT there! 

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2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Relax, we don’t judge management around here based on silly things like winning or assembling a competent roster.

Trust the process, development year, blinding light

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I don’t understand why “sharpen your point” was the slogan selection of choice when “this season was never about winning anyway” was RIGHT there! 

Were they talking about sabres or pitchforks?

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8 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Good luck, man.  I am still not 100% after 20 months.

Although you have not fully returned to complete normal are you steadily getting better? Is the next month better than the previous month? As I said with Hoss I wish you the best. I don't wish this infection on anyone. 

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13 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Having a ***** coach and your best player out injured are two of the primary causes.  The third was goaltending.  But much of Jack's misery is self-induced.

People get that, if the team allowed Eichel to choose the coach, that's not on Eichel, that's on the team, right?

If they've been choosing to give him that power, that's a mistake, and they are lying in the bed they made. 

It's just like people are willing to pawn everything off on Krueger. Krueger didn't hold a gun to their heads and tell them they needed to cede all authority to him. They made a choice. 

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27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

People get that, if the team allowed Eichel to choose the coach, that's not on Eichel, that's on the team, right?

If they've been choosing to give him that power, that's a mistake, and they are lying in the bed they made. 

It's just like people are willing to pawn everything off on Krueger. Krueger didn't hold a gun to their heads and tell them they needed to cede all authority to him. They made a choice. 

Team’s fault entirely for hiring him

Eichel shares some blame for delaying his firing if he was giving ultimatums. 

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9 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Team’s fault entirely for hiring him

Eichel shares some blame for delaying his firing if he was giving ultimatums. 

If we are going to move from "the team hired the coach Eichel wanted" which I find plausible (though unlikely - I think it was one of Botterill's last big swings) to "Eichel was issuing unsolicited ultimatums on staff firings", we will need to see some evidence. 

Edited by Thorny
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16 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Agree.  Fish may have been goading Adams to trade fast and take what he can.   It didn’t work.  Let’s hope that Adams and Karmanos have the credibility and trust from TP to keep him out of it.   
 

It is still going to be difficult to find market value for a guy that is paid like a superstar but is injured with no simple path forward.   Either Jack will have to play for us again to prove he can, or another team takes him now/soon and the risk gets  covered with trade conditions.   
 

Some items to consider.  If this drags into camp, Eichel shows, fails the physical and goes on IR.  It'll be a topic of conversation hovering over the organization regardless. That's not what a youthful team that is going to hang out near the bottom of the standings wants as a distraction 

Or, if he shows, what if he passes the physical and begins playing...does a team losing money and sure to do more of that in 2021-22 want that contract?  Pegula has reportedly balked at retaining any of Jack's salary, so I could see that hastening a move if this goes to camp.  

Brisson can wait out Adams as well.  He's the biggest agent in the NHL and I'm pretty sure he can play hardball too.  

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