Sam Reinhart at center

[mjd1001]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Trading Eichel is still a bad idea. Just because we suddenly have decent centers does not mean Eichel is expendable when he is twice as good as the next center on the team. Sure Cozens and Mitts could get there, but we should stop this stupid tradition of starting to see young players succeed... and subtracting from the team. 

I take issue with you saying Eichel is twice as good as the next center on the team.  Are you including Reinhart as a Center (for this discussion obviously we are). There is no doubting Eichel is a great NHL player, but the truth is he just isn't as good as we all 'hoped' he would be when drafted.  He is not generational.

Since has been in the NHL, he isn't in the top 20 in points, he isn't even in the top 20 in points per game (using that because of the games he has missed due to injury). Hes not even in the top 30 for goals.  He should be in the prime of his career now...and all things considered, he has been very good (flashes of great), but has shown no signs of being even close to generational.  And his production even in his BEST year does not even have him in the top 10 in points in the NHL.  And he has had all the opportunities...he has skated on the top line...WITH players drafted highly with success in the NHL..and has gotten 1st powerplay time his whole career.

Eichel is VERY good, but we as a fanbase have to get over this idea that he is generational or even a top 5 or 10 player in the NHL.  When he shows flashes of that or goes on a 5-10 game streak people like to use that as 'proof' he is a top 5 or 10 player.  His career results say he is good, maybe great, but not what we all want him to be.

[Thorny]

39 minutes ago, #freejame said:

I don’t think Eichel needs to go and I don’t think there will be much of a hockey trade available for him. I’d be open for the right guy though. 

I guess I just don’t understand why that necessarily would be. People keep saying it, but why can’t it be a hockey trade? 

For Sam people say hockey trade, why not Jack? It’s not a cap thing, if anything it would help them in that area to unload current spending. 

Because teams don’t want to tear apart their roster to add what it would cost to get Jack? I’m just not sure that would need to be the case. What’s to stop us calling up Winnipeg and offering them Jack for Scheifele and a first, if we decide we NEED to move him? 

I’d much rather have the immediate high level C, to go with our blossoming young core, than the quantity of young prospects and picks and maybes we’d get in say the proposed LA deal. 

Maybe that’s just me

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

I take issue with you saying Eichel is twice as good as the next center on the team.  Are you including Reinhart as a Center (for this discussion obviously we are). There is no doubting Eichel is a great NHL player, but the truth is he just isn't as good as we all 'hoped' he would be when drafted.  He is not generational.

Since has been in the NHL, he isn't in the top 20 in points, he isn't even in the top 20 in points per game (using that because of the games he has missed due to injury). Hes not even in the top 30 for goals.  He should be in the prime of his career now...and all things considered, he has been very good (flashes of great), but has shown no signs of being even close to generational.  And his production even in his BEST year does not even have him in the top 10 in points in the NHL.  And he has had all the opportunities...he has skated on the top line...WITH players drafted highly with success in the NHL..and has gotten 1st powerplay time his whole career.

Eichel is VERY good, but we as a fanbase have to get over this idea that he is generational or even a top 5 or 10 player in the NHL.  When he shows flashes of that or goes on a 5-10 game streak people like to use that as 'proof' he is a top 5 or 10 player.  His career results say he is good, maybe great, but not what we all want him to be.

First, Eichel has been on the worst most mismanaged team in the entire league for his entire career. This is the ROR argument all over again. "Well we haven't won with him so he must be part of the problem." 

Second the bolded is flat out 100% wrong. Jack Eichel was 10th in total points just last year in the NHL. He was 14th in ppg. 

Third, trading him isn't a mistake because he is "generational" but because he is a top 10 center in the league and you aren't replacing that as easily as everyone now thinks Eichel is twice as good as the next center on the team. Sure Reinhart might stay at center so in that case Eichel is only almost twice as good. 

Fourth, I do not give a flying ***** about what he has done over the course of his entire career, I care what he will do when healthy with a decent NHL coach finally using him correctly and allowing him to do his thing. Since he's been in the NHL is so irrelevant especially considering the team has been a nightmare for most of those years. 

Fifth and finally, I DONT CARE about this generational tag that ppl toss around. There were 4 centers last season better than Eichel, 4. Jack Eichel tied Sidney Crosby in ppg. Trading Eichel is the biggest mistake this organization can make unless the return is absurd. He is the best center on this roster and no center has come anywhere near his production. Mitts and Cozens have looked good for 10 games and yet you are here using " When he shows flashes of that or goes on a 5-10 game streak people like to use that as 'proof' he is a top 5 or 10 player." as your proof in your mind that Eichel is expandenble, 

Jack Eichel should not be traded. He's a top 10 center in the league and I can make the case for top 5. Instead of subtracting talent we should be adding it and cratering the first line is not the way to do it I would have thought trading ROR away would have taught everyone this lesson. It isnt about Eichel being the best player over the course of the his career, it is about how he can be one of the best NHL centers moving forward and tossing that out because Mitts and Cozens gave us 10 games of good play is a terrible way to dig out of this playoff draught we are marred in. Add talent and stop this nonsense of suggesting Eichel is expendable because of Cozens, Mitts, and Reinhart. 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I guess I just don’t understand why that necessarily would be. People keep saying it, but why can’t it be a hockey trade? 

For Sam people say hockey trade, why not Jack? It’s not a cap thing, if anything it would help them in that area to unload current spending. 

Because teams don’t want to tear apart their roster to add what it would cost to get Jack? I’m just not sure that would need to be the case. What’s to stop us calling up Winnipeg and offering them Jack for Scheifele and a first, if we decide we NEED to move him? 

I’d much rather have the immediate high level C, to go with our blossoming young core, than the quantity of young prospects and picks and maybes we’d get in say the proposed LA deal. 

Maybe that’s just me

What the actual *****. How does this improve the team? Dear god does no one want to get better? We have Jack Eichel who can be added to this resurgent team next season and the reactions is "well we can trade him now because these other guys look okay". My god. 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

First, Eichel has been on the worst most mismanaged team in the entire league for his entire career. This is the ROR argument all over again. "Well we haven't won with him so he must be part of the problem." 

Second the bolded is flat out 100% wrong. Jack Eichel was 10th in total points just last year in the NHL. He was 14th in ppg. 

Third, trading him isn't a mistake because he is "generational" but because he is a top 10 center in the league and you aren't replacing that as easily as everyone now thinks Eichel is twice as good as the next center on the team. Sure Reinhart might stay at center so in that case Eichel is only almost twice as good. 

Fourth, I do not give a flying ***** about what he has done over the course of his entire career, I care what he will do when healthy with a decent NHL coach finally using him correctly and allowing him to do his thing. Since he's been in the NHL is so irrelevant especially considering the team has been a nightmare for most of those years. 

Fifth and finally, I DONT CARE about this generational tag that ppl toss around. There were 4 centers last season better than Eichel, 4. Jack Eichel tied Sidney Crosby in ppg. Trading Eichel is the biggest mistake this organization can make unless the return is absurd. He is the best center on this roster and no center has come anywhere near his production. Mitts and Cozens have looked good for 10 games and yet you are here using " When he shows flashes of that or goes on a 5-10 game streak people like to use that as 'proof' he is a top 5 or 10 player." as your proof in your mind that Eichel is expandenble, 

Jack Eichel should not be traded. He's a top 10 center in the league and I can make the case for top 5. Instead of subtracting talent we should be adding it and cratering the first line is not the way to do it I would have thought trading ROR away would have taught everyone this lesson. It isnt about Eichel being the best player over the course of the his career, it is about how he can be one of the best NHL centers moving forward and tossing that out because Mitts and Cozens gave us 10 games of good play is a terrible way to dig out of this playoff draught we are marred in. Add talent and stop this nonsense of suggesting Eichel is expendable because of Cozens, Mitts, and Reinhart. 

What the actual *****. How does this improve the team? Dear god does no one want to get better? We have Jack Eichel who can be added to this resurgent team next season and the reactions is "well we can trade him now because these other guys look okay". My god. 

After I gave this post an awesome you added this in lol 

Sometimes I don’t know why I bother. I’ve spoken endlessly about how we should not trade Jack, I’ve been the biggest proponent of not dealing him 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

Anyways, @LGR4GM, the best point you made is the rather striking comparison between people diminishing what Jack has done because it’s only for “stretches” due to their confidence from what we’ve seen from the kids...in a similar length stretch 

[Torpedo Forecheck]

I'm very pleased to be going into the future with Eichel, Reinhart, Mitts and Cozens as the center spine. You do whatever you have to do to keep that intact going forward. 

[mjd1001]

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

First, Eichel has been on the worst most mismanaged team in the entire league for his entire career. This is the ROR argument all over again. "Well we haven't won with him so he must be part of the problem." 

Second the bolded is flat out 100% wrong. Jack Eichel was 10th in total points just last year in the NHL. He was 14th in ppg. 

Third, trading him isn't a mistake because he is "generational" but because he is a top 10 center in the league and you aren't replacing that as easily as everyone now thinks Eichel is twice as good as the next center on the team. Sure Reinhart might stay at center so in that case Eichel is only almost twice as good. 

Fourth, I do not give a flying ***** about what he has done over the course of his entire career, I care what he will do when healthy with a decent NHL coach finally using him correctly and allowing him to do his thing. Since he's been in the NHL is so irrelevant especially considering the team has been a nightmare for most of those years. 

Fifth and finally, I DONT CARE about this generational tag that ppl toss around. There were 4 centers last season better than Eichel, 4. Jack Eichel tied Sidney Crosby in ppg. Trading Eichel is the biggest mistake this organization can make unless the return is absurd. He is the best center on this roster and no center has come anywhere near his production. Mitts and Cozens have looked good for 10 games and yet you are here using " When he shows flashes of that or goes on a 5-10 game streak people like to use that as 'proof' he is a top 5 or 10 player." as your proof in your mind that Eichel is expandenble, 

Jack Eichel should not be traded. He's a top 10 center in the league and I can make the case for top 5. Instead of subtracting talent we should be adding it and cratering the first line is not the way to do it I would have thought trading ROR away would have taught everyone this lesson. It isnt about Eichel being the best player over the course of the his career, it is about how he can be one of the best NHL centers moving forward and tossing that out because Mitts and Cozens gave us 10 games of good play is a terrible way to dig out of this playoff draught we are marred in. Add talent and stop this nonsense of suggesting Eichel is expendable because of Cozens, Mitts, and Reinhart. 

What the actual *****. How does this improve the team? Dear god does no one want to get better? We have Jack Eichel who can be added to this resurgent team next season and the reactions is "well we can trade him now because these other guys look okay". My god. 

It's great you don't care about a lot of those things you mentioned, but they do matter.

You don't care about what he has done over his career? I guess you care more about what he did the 2-3 years BEFORE he was drafted?

And Yes, we get it YOU don't want to trade him....but just because you don't want to trade him doesn't mean that not trading him is the correct decision.  I stand by my post...he is very good, but just not as good as most fans think he is.  

Just as you can make the case he is a top 5 center, I can also make the case he is not a top 5 center for sure.  You have your opinion, a lot of us have our opinions that are different than yours.  I see you like to get really, really fired up when people present opinions that are different than yours though. 

[Marvin]

We have too many centres who are too good next year, so we should trade Eichel?  This is right up there with the time Capitol Records releases "Ticket to Ride" as a song from the movie "Eight Arms to Hold You".

Why don't we see how the offseason shakes out first and then what injuries mar training camp before we go trading Eichel or Reinhart.  I could stand rolling 4 lines and 3 pairs every game.  Let's figure out the goaltending, coaching, assistants to the GM, scouts, etc. before getting so far ahead of ourselves.  If next year's training camp comes and we go 5 lines, 4 pairs, and 3 goaltenders deep (cf. 2005-6), then let us thank our lucky stars and live with it.

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

It's great you don't care about a lot of those things you mentioned, but they do matter.

You don't care about what he has done over his career? I guess you care more about what he did the 2-3 years BEFORE he was drafted?

And Yes, we get it YOU don't want to trade him....but just because you don't want to trade him doesn't mean that not trading him is the correct decision.  I stand by my post...he is very good, but just not as good as most fans think he is.  

Just as you can make the case he is a top 5 center, I can also make the case he is not a top 5 center for sure.  You have your opinion, a lot of us have our opinions that are different than yours.  I see you like to get really, really fired up when people present opinions that are different than yours though. 

Why would I care about the 2-3 years b4 his draft? 

I get fired up when illogical positions are presented. 

[Thorny]

People talk about trading Eichel to convert his cap space into “money better spent” considering our up and comers, and a lot about trading him for psyche/chemistry/leadership reasons. Neither of those really appeal to me, but mentioned less is the injury issue. 

THAT’s the one thing that makes me even consider considering it a reasonable course of action. How much should it factor into the evaluation? What is the likelihood his rate of games played improves? Is it way down on the concerns list? Does it not matter at all? 

Jack has averaged 66 games played per 82 games over the course of his 6 year NHL career. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

[Doohickie]

I will say this:

Quote

Granato on Sam Reinhart - I really like him at center. There's still so much room for him at the position. I like his skill set, I like where he's at in his career. I don't see any reason to shift him back to the wing.

and everyone assumes that means the Sabres are shipping Eichel out.  There's major flaws to this thinking:

1. Granato is an interim head coach.  Don't put too much stock into what his preferences are.  IF they remove the interim tag THEN maybe this statement carries more significance.
2. Even if Granato were the full time HC, this doesn't mean he wants to ditch Eichel.  It's more likely he wants to ditch Eakin.
3. Granato is the coach, not the GM.  Let Kevyn Adams worry about cap space, personnel moves, etc., and don't think Granato is running the show from that standpoint.

 

[Carmel Corn]

Regardless of whether Sam is a 2C or not, we have our future 2C with Cozens and ideally a 3C with Mitts....and Jack as our 1C if all are healthy.  None of these players should be a 4C.  As far as Sam is concerned, I still prefer him at RW when Jack is healthy...we don't have enough skill at RW without him there.

[pi2000]

[Weave]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is what I've been saying. Reinhart has looked much better between Skinner and VO than he used to as a RW. I'm glad Granato recognizes this. 

Too many centers? Don't be silly. You can never have too many. 

Easy fix. One option, trade Eichel in the off season to stock the prospect/draft cupboard and don't disturb the current chemistry and get away from the is he a good captain thing. OR, 

Skinner-Reinhart-VO

Asplund-Mitts-Thompson

Ruotsaleinen-Eichel-Cozens

Girgensens-Eakin/?-Bjork/Okposo/?

Top 3 lines in no particular order. All 3 fast, all 3 have playmakers and scorers and guys to go to the net. All problems solved. 

If you are trading Eichel you need current players coming back or it is a trade not worth making.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

If you are trading Eichel you need current players coming back or it is a trade not worth making.

That's not necessarily true. It all depends on how many and how good they might be. 

[Taro T]

Not sure why people need to have 1 of Eichel or Reinhart off the roster.  We finally are seeing the team on the verge of having the youth starting to fill important roles & that they can likely actually be useful in their own right.  The youth is cheap & with the possible exception of Dahlin will remain relatively cheap at least until Okposo's contract is off the books.  Sam will get a raise, but it won't be more than Hall's (now gone) $8MM and probably slightly less.

The goaltending will be more expensive, but especially if they find a way to get Seattle to take Miller, the D will likely overall be cheaper than it was last season and possibly even this season.  (Depends on whether the Dahlin deal is full term based on his potential or a bridge based strictly on results (including all his time under the former coach) which will put him in the Ristolainen range of contracts rather than in Skinner territory.

So, the team will most likely not need to move either #2 overall pick to meet the cap.  If they can build a team around what they already have, there's a good chance they won't ruin existing chemistry.

With issues in the net and an injured Eichel, this team is an NHL 0.500 or NHL 0.550 team.  Which isn't good enough but certainly isn't Anaheim / Detroit territory either.  Fix the goaltending, make the right decision at HC, and this team is competing.  ADD to what they have, rather than take away a truly major piece, and that playoff drought should finally end.

And my preference is to keep Sam glued to Jack's hip, but if he is going to be a C next year would actually be very interested in keeping the other 3 scoring lines the way they've been rolling & giving Eichel Girgensons & a new guy.  No shutdown line there, but 4 lines that can each score.  It may not work, but it should be fun to watch.  Definitely wouldn't be boring.

[PASabreFan]

What's the reverse of The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!?

The Drought is Ending! The Drought is Ending!

One of these years it's bound to happen.

[Doohickie]

...because even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Taro T said:

Not sure why people need to have 1 of Eichel or Reinhart off the roster.  We finally are seeing the team on the verge of having the youth starting to fill important roles & that they can likely actually be useful in their own right.  The youth is cheap & with the possible exception of Dahlin will remain relatively cheap at least until Okposo's contract is off the books.  Sam will get a raise, but it won't be more than Hall's (now gone) $8MM and probably slightly less.

The goaltending will be more expensive, but especially if they find a way to get Seattle to take Miller, the D will likely overall be cheaper than it was last season and possibly even this season.  (Depends on whether the Dahlin deal is full term based on his potential or a bridge based strictly on results (including all his time under the former coach) which will put him in the Ristolainen range of contracts rather than in Skinner territory.

So, the team will most likely not need to move either #2 overall pick to meet the cap.  If they can build a team around what they already have, there's a good chance they won't ruin existing chemistry.

With issues in the net and an injured Eichel, this team is an NHL 0.500 or NHL 0.550 team.  Which isn't good enough but certainly isn't Anaheim / Detroit territory either.  Fix the goaltending, make the right decision at HC, and this team is competing.  ADD to what they have, rather than take away a truly major piece, and that playoff drought should finally end.

And my preference is to keep Sam glued to Jack's hip, but if he is going to be a C next year would actually be very interested in keeping the other 3 scoring lines the way they've been rolling & giving Eichel Girgensons & a new guy.  No shutdown line there, but 4 lines that can each score.  It may not work, but it should be fun to watch.  Definitely wouldn't be boring.

Because we haven't won since they have been here and it couldn't possibly be because of poor roster construction and management. It must be because Eichel hasn't been a good enough player and because Reinhart is soft and can't skate. This is called ROR derangement syndrome where we convince ourselves a good player is the causation when in reality it is a bunch of tiny other things that player has no control over. 

Jack Eichel last season was a top 5 center even with Krueger's lockdown garbage coaching. Just imagine what he does with depth scoring and competent coaching. 

[LTS]

I watch how this team is playing right now and I wish I could see Eichel in the lineup.  I think the current style of play is something he would love and excel at.

[PerreaultForever]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Not sure why people need to have 1 of Eichel or Reinhart off the roster. 

Well part of the reason is because they gave Skinner way too much money. So if Sam wants a big time payday we're in trouble and won't be able to have the resources to build a team behind those 3. Rookie contracts won't last forever. 

21 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

First, Eichel has been on the worst most mismanaged team in the entire league for his entire career. This is the ROR argument all over again. "Well we haven't won with him so he must be part of the problem." 

The comparison is a bit of a straw man argument. They are not necessarily the same, but they might be. ROR lost his love and that was that. You lose the trade big time but you really have no choice and with an owner wanting to save his bonus cheque you really have no choice. With Jack there is a question mark.  There's no question he's a frustrated hockey player but he also doesn't seem to have the character to take that on himself and lead out of it. Smashing sticks and pouting isn't leadership and it rubs off on others. 

IF, and it's a big IF but a real IF, IF he's not in the right frame of mind to commit to this team the team will be better off to move on from him. There's different mindsets. If his mind is okay I like the direction of this coach and the enthusiasm of these kids and I'm going to give it my all and rise this team up next year it could be good, BUT if his mindset is well oaky I'll start the season and see how it goes but this is your last chance or I'm out of here and if you rebuild at all I'm out of here and don't you dare trade my buddy Sam.............and that post game hot tub better be the temperature I like............. well okay maybe not that but I think you get my point. 

Bottom line is Adams/etc have to sit down with Jack, determine if he's genuinely into this team or not, fully committed to excellence here, and if not, it's really the right time to move on. 

[LGR4GM]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well part of the reason is because they gave Skinner way too much money. So if Sam wants a big time payday we're in trouble and won't be able to have the resources to build a team behind those 3. Rookie contracts won't last forever. 

The comparison is a bit of a straw man argument. They are not necessarily the same, but they might be. ROR lost his love and that was that. You lose the trade big time but you really have no choice and with an owner wanting to save his bonus cheque you really have no choice. With Jack there is a question mark.  There's no question he's a frustrated hockey player but he also doesn't seem to have the character to take that on himself and lead out of it. Smashing sticks and pouting isn't leadership and it rubs off on others. 

IF, and it's a big IF but a real IF, IF he's not in the right frame of mind to commit to this team the team will be better off to move on from him. There's different mindsets. If his mind is okay I like the direction of this coach and the enthusiasm of these kids and I'm going to give it my all and rise this team up next year it could be good, BUT if his mindset is well oaky I'll start the season and see how it goes but this is your last chance or I'm out of here and if you rebuild at all I'm out of here and don't you dare trade my buddy Sam.............and that post game hot tub better be the temperature I like............. well okay maybe not that but I think you get my point. 

Bottom line is Adams/etc have to sit down with Jack, determine if he's genuinely into this team or not, fully committed to excellence here, and if not, it's really the right time to move on. 

First, every player in the league has probably smashed a stick before, so strawman indeed. 

Second, when has he pouted and how did he do it? 

[triumph_communes]

Teams game plan for Eichel

 

No team does any thought about Sam other than get their top line out against him because Sam+Skinner is the easiest line to score goals against, and not one of them is going to bruise ya

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well part of the reason is because they gave Skinner way too much money. So if Sam wants a big time payday we're in trouble and won't be able to have the resources to build a team behind those 3. Rookie contracts won't last forever. 

The comparison is a bit of a straw man argument. They are not necessarily the same, but they might be. ROR lost his love and that was that. You lose the trade big time but you really have no choice and with an owner wanting to save his bonus cheque you really have no choice. With Jack there is a question mark.  There's no question he's a frustrated hockey player but he also doesn't seem to have the character to take that on himself and lead out of it. Smashing sticks and pouting isn't leadership and it rubs off on others. 

IF, and it's a big IF but a real IF, IF he's not in the right frame of mind to commit to this team the team will be better off to move on from him. There's different mindsets. If his mind is okay I like the direction of this coach and the enthusiasm of these kids and I'm going to give it my all and rise this team up next year it could be good, BUT if his mindset is well oaky I'll start the season and see how it goes but this is your last chance or I'm out of here and if you rebuild at all I'm out of here and don't you dare trade my buddy Sam.............and that post game hot tub better be the temperature I like............. well okay maybe not that but I think you get my point. 

Bottom line is Adams/etc have to sit down with Jack, determine if he's genuinely into this team or not, fully committed to excellence here, and if not, it's really the right time to move on. 

Appreciate the response.  

Don't agree with the rationale, but do appreciate the explanation of your reasoning for it.