Sabres Do Not Qualify Kahun

[DarthEbriate]

3 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

The future is an unknown at this time when it comes to covid. The impact on owners is being felt nearly league wide as financial projections are out the window as of now I'd imagine. This could be a huge factor playing in to not only Kahun's situation, but the multitude of serviceable NHL players we see not being qualified I'd guess.

There's also the question of whether Sheevyn can replace Kahun with a better player who agrees to a contract for less money as they all get the squeeze. And I like Kahun's contribution (and like especially what he did as a mid-line tweener with Chicago and Malkin/Pitt the last two seasons).

[dudacek]

Long list of players not qualified with names still rolling in.

Kahun definitely one of the more interesting names, but here are some more:

Remi Elie, Matthew Spencer, Brandon Hickey

Vinnie Hinostroza

Brett Ritchie

Mark Jankowski

Slater Koekkoek, Malcolm Subban

Devin Shore,

Madison Bowey, Brendan Perlini

Andreas Athanasiou, Matthew Benning,

Mirco Mueller

Anthony Duclair, Jayce Hawryluk

Dominik Simon,

Jake Dotchin, Derrick Pouliot

Carter Verhaeghe

Jeremy Bracco, Frederik Gauthier, Evan Rodrigues,

Troy Stecher

Nick Cousins

[Thorny]

Visual aid to the above

 

 

Kahun is indeed one of the most interesting names on the list, one of the very best. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

Well, if Kahun wouldn't sign for less than $4MM, I think the Sabres did the right thing here.  That would be a ridiculous contract in this economic climate.

It's too bad, because he's shown some potential and I'd like to see how he does over a full season.  But every team needs to be prudent and the Sabres are no exception.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, if Kahun wouldn't sign for less than $4MM, I think the Sabres did the right thing here.  That would be a ridiculous contract in this economic climate.

It's too bad, because he's shown some potential and I'd like to see how he does over a full season.  But every team needs to be prudent and the Sabres are no exception.

Have we heard that?

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, if Kahun wouldn't sign for less than $4MM, I think the Sabres did the right thing here.  That would be a ridiculous contract in this economic climate.

It's too bad, because he's shown some potential and I'd like to see how he does over a full season.  But every team needs to be prudent and the Sabres are no exception.

I think dudacek is closer to the mark when he says that it's going to depend on what happens. I don't think it's fair to say the Sabres did the right thing purely based on the fact he might have wanted a few 100k more than what the Sabres wanted to pay, like if say the Sabres were at 3.8 mil and he was at 4.1. Which is not a possibility you allowed for as being reasonable by listing a hard 4M cap in your post. 

If the climate is so bad that you'd risk losing one of your better wingers haggling over a few hundred K, you shouldn't be pre-paying Tage for value you hope to unlock when he hasn't proven anything. 

The budget argument makes sense but to me it falls apart when viewed in context with the Thompson move, should we lose Kahun and he go unreasonably replaced. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I think dudacek is closer to the mark when he says that it's going to depend on what happens. I don't think it's fair to say the Sabres did the right thing purely based on the fact he might have wanted a few 100k more than what the Sabres wanted to pay, like if say the Sabres were at 3.8 mil and he was at 4.1. 

If the climate is so bad that you'd lost one of your better wingers haggling over a few hundred K, you shouldn't be pre-paying Tage for value you hope to unlock. 

What do you suppose an arbitrator would give him? Any idea?

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

What do you suppose an arbitrator would give him? Any idea?

It's hard to say exactly. Didn't someone here say we could walk away at 4.1 though? That's the key thing. If that's the case, I'm giving him his QO. 

What do we think Thompson could have signed for? Cut the difference between that number and what he did, and that's at least what I would have "overpaid" for Kahun, before I paid Tage. 

But that's talent evaluation. My point is - we can't just get ready to chalk it up to the ol' cap. Of course cap plays a factor, but there are comparative talent evaluations working intrinsically with those of cost - it's all dependent. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Zamboni]

I’m sorry if this has been asked and answered already… How long do the qualifying offer players have to except or reject the offer?

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’m sorry if this has been asked and answered already… How long do the qualifying offer players have to except or reject the offer?

It's an open offer - even if the player rejects the deal the team retains their rights. If they sign the deal, that's what they play for. I don't believe the offers "expire" but I could be wrong. 

[Eleven]

I can't read through seven pages, so please pardon me if this already has been stated, but I have seen a few sportswriters post/tweet/whatever that Kahun wouldn't have signed it, per his agent, so they decided to talk rather than tender the offer and head to arbitration.  Not sure how that's going to play out.  I suspect there are similar situations all over the league.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Eleven

[nfreeman]

47 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Have we heard that?

 

47 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I think dudacek is closer to the mark when he says that it's going to depend on what happens. I don't think it's fair to say the Sabres did the right thing purely based on the fact he might have wanted a few 100k more than what the Sabres wanted to pay, like if say the Sabres were at 3.8 mil and he was at 4.1. Which is not a possibility you allowed for as being reasonable by listing a hard 4M cap in your post. 

If the climate is so bad that you'd risk losing one of your better wingers haggling over a few hundred K, you shouldn't be pre-paying Tage for value you hope to unlock when he hasn't proven anything. 

The budget argument makes sense but to me it falls apart when viewed in context with the Thompson move, should we lose Kahun and he go unreasonably replaced. 

I don’t think we’ve heard any numbers.  I chose that one as it’s in the ballpark of the arbitration walk-away cutoff #s mentioned upthread and in the ballpark of what someone with Kahun’s recent production might reasonably expect in arbitration — and so what he might be pushing for in negotiations.

I would guess that the Sabres want to give him a prove-it deal in the $2.5MM x 2 years neighborhood, while Dom wants more like $4.5MM x 4 years.  So I don’t think it’s a matter of being $300K apart.  I also think the TT deal is neither here nor there as it is so cheap as to essentially be a no-risk flyer.

Again, i would like to keep him, but I think Kahun is in the class of guys that is really going to get squeezed this off-season, and that there will be plenty of alternatives at comparable cost.  

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I can't read through seven pages, so please pardon me if this already has been stated, but I have seen a few sportswriters post/tweet/whatever that Kahun wouldn't have signed it, per his agent, so they decided to talk rather than tender the offer and head to arbitration.  Not sure how that's going to play out.  I suspect there are similar situations all over the league.

Yes agree - they were more weary of arbitration than they were concerned with retaining exclusive negotiating rights beyond tomorrow. That's the evaluation.

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

I don’t think we’ve heard any numbers.  I chose that one as it’s in the ballpark of the arbitration walk-away cutoff #s mentioned upthread and in the ballpark of what someone with Kahun’s recent production might reasonably expect in arbitration — and so what he might be pushing for in negotiations.

I would guess that the Sabres want to give him a prove-it deal in the $2.5MM x 2 years neighborhood, while Dom wants more like $4.5MM x 4 years.  So I don’t think it’s a matter of being $300K apart.  I also think the TT deal is neither here nor there as it is so cheap as to essentially be a no-risk flyer.

Again, i would like to keep him, but I think Kahun is in the class of guys that is really going to get squeezed this off-season, and that there will be plenty of alternatives at comparable cost.  

Well, they'd have to find a player who does what Kahun does, but for 2 mil, then. I suppose they think they have a reasonable chance of doing so, given the fact they are risking losing him. 

Or they just know they only have 2 mil allocated to his "spot", I guess. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Thorny

[Zamboni]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

It's an open offer - even if the player rejects the deal the team retains their rights. If they sign the deal, that's what they play for. I don't believe the offers "expire" but I could be wrong. 

Found this ...

Free agency opens Oct. 9 at 12 p.m. ET, at which point RFAs become eligible to sign their qualifying offer — or offer sheets. Qualifying offers expire on Oct. 18. 

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

7 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

I don’t think we’ve heard any numbers.  I chose that one as it’s in the ballpark of the arbitration walk-away cutoff #s mentioned upthread and in the ballpark of what someone with Kahun’s recent production might reasonably expect in arbitration — and so what he might be pushing for in negotiations.

I would guess that the Sabres want to give him a prove-it deal in the $2.5MM x 2 years neighborhood, while Dom wants more like $4.5MM x 4 years.  So I don’t think it’s a matter of being $300K apart.  I also think the TT deal is neither here nor there as it is so cheap as to essentially be a no-risk flyer.

Again, i would like to keep him, but I think Kahun is in the class of guys that is really going to get squeezed this off-season, and that there will be plenty of alternatives at comparable cost.  

This has to be it.  No numbers have been reported yet, but just hearing the statement from "one" of his agents, looking at how his last deal was structured with over 2.8M in possible performance bonuses per year, and the fact the Sabres are worried about overpaying in arbitration, it has me thinking the player is asking too much given the current marketplace.  

Adams made a statement he wanted to give the Sabres "flexibility."  I can't hate on KA not qualifying Kahun if that means the Sabres chose to not overpay a middle 6 winger, in a year with a flat cap, when there are other RFAs hitting the market like Duclair. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by SHAAAUGHT!!!

[GASabresIUFAN]

Will this be the biggest blunder since DR failed to send the fax in on time? (Trades exempted).

Edited October 8, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[That Aud Smell]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Will this be the biggest blunder since DR failed to send the fax in on time? (Trades exempted).

I see that long list of RFA's who didn't get qualified, and it lends some perspective to the matter.

OTOH, the imposition of an internal cap, etc. creates concern that the franchise is just going to lose/walk away from a useful NHL player.

But it's a calculated risk, at worst. Not a blunder.

[North Buffalo]

Yeh but why not qualify, the can always walk away from arbitration unless both sides were so far apart Sabres decided to call his bluff because they felt it better negotiation wise to let Kahun see others sign for much less...  wonder if it was term or amount or both.

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Yeh but why not qualify, the can always walk away from arbitration unless both sides were so far apart Sabres decided to call his bluff because they felt it better negotiation wise to let Kahun see others sign for much less...  wonder if it was term or amount or both.

Well, as noted upthread, the rule now is that if the award is $4.2MM per year or less, the team cannot walk away.  I think that is the primary reason KA made this decision -- i.e. the risk of a non-avoidable award in the $4MM range.

[Eleven]

26 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, as noted upthread, the rule now is that if the award is $4.2MM per year or less, the team cannot walk away.  I think that is the primary reason KA made this decision -- i.e. the risk of a non-avoidable award in the $4MM range.

That, and if the gal has already told you she isn't going to go to prom with you, why ask again?

[MattPie]

22 minutes ago, Eleven said:

That, and if the gal has already told you she isn't going to go to prom with you, why ask again?

Because Hollywood has ingrained in us men that if you pester a woman long enough, she'll ignore her instincts and give in.

[nfreeman]

3 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Because Hollywood has ingrained in us men that if you pester a woman long enough, she'll ignore her instincts and give in.

How else do SabreSpacers get married?

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Because Hollywood has ingrained in us men that if you pester a woman long enough, she'll ignore her instincts and give in.

That's how my best friend got his wife

Just now, nfreeman said:

How else do SabreSpacers get married?

Mail-order 

[bob_sauve28]

More proof Curtis Lazar is moving up the depth chart 😉 

[MattPie]

11 minutes ago, WildCard said:

That's how my best friend got his wife

Mail-order 

In Chz's case, it'd be Male-order, right?