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Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

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6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I get all of that, and so I'm not saying that it's all the Sabres SHOULD be trying to do, or what they ARE trying to do. But I pay a lot of money for Buffalo Sabres NHL hockey, so when I'm analyzing it, that's the lens I take, because it gets right to the point of what I'm even doing in the first place. It's like my sole obsession and hobby, ya know?

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

 

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2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm intrigued to see this, because his thing appears to be finding that soft spot for his teammates to get him the puck, and man oh man is that the entire point of Chicago's game. And I'm not convinced it's evidence of him not caring or trying just yet. 

But I'm happy with the trade either way.

Yea, he is primarily an offensive passenger. 

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Just now, Randall Flagg said:

When's that?

Saturday March 21st vs Chicago, 1pm

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I have no issue with all the Tage talk. 

I've come to view the term "thread-hijacking" as a needlessly negative way of describing the natural flow of online conversation. Sometimes the term is apt, but mostly I don't like it.

Edited by That Aud Smell
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5 minutes ago, LTS said:

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

 

I think I need to take a step back here. 

I treat all skaters in an NHL sweater as pieces that directly affect the ultimate thing that matters more than anything else, certainly to me - NHL wins. Because prospect or vet, their successes and failures explicitly do this (affect the NHL game they're playing in) in the here and now, equally to each other. I don't change verbiage depending on the nature of the player when I'm trying to describe what is happening on the ice in relation to tonight's NHL game and this NHL season, because it serves no purpose except to delineate how we might proceed with said player going forward, which usually has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

This is different from saying that there might be a purpose to letting a player struggle for development.

Which is different still from saying that there are multiple reasons NHL organizations do the things they do.

And should certainly never imply that every choice the Cleveland Browns of the NHL make is correct - as the player submarines his NHL team while having his confidence eroded.  

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yea, he is primarily an offensive passenger. 

These guys can be devastating on a team that knows how to use off-puck rovers-of-sorts. 

Edited by Randall Flagg
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11 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

In what way?

Two very promising young players/high draft picks who haven't yet lived up to expectations, nobody's sure if they will. One has maybe shown more than the other so far, but one may have a higher ceiling. Lots of people think one side or the other got fleeced, but only time will tell. I always find these trades really interesting, because there is so much risk in trading young talent that could blossom big-time. 

And like with Kassian for Hodgson, both teams involved will be comparing their careers for a long time. Unless they don't have long careers. 

Edited by Skibum

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As for the fancier stats, Jokiharju checks a lot of boxes. According to NaturalStatTrick.com, his Corsi For percentage was 54.1 at five-on-five. For players with as much time on ice as Jokiharju or more, that number ranked him above all qualifying Sabres players. Better than Rasmus Dahlin, better than Jack Eichel, better than Jeff Skinner.

Joe Yerdon's Athletic piece: https://theathletic.com/1070088/2019/07/09/sabres-crowd-their-blue-line-in-a-trade-alexander-nylander-is-out-and-henri-jokiharju-is-in/

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30 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

This was not addition by subration.  It was talent in, talent out.  Just because one guy somewhere (whichever media personality it was) said Nylander has more talent doesn't make it true.  Also, pure physical talent is not the only thing that matters.

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46 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

How much ice time did they actually have together in St. Louis. 

Anyway, know who else had significant ice time with Sobotka this season? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Know whose metrics weren't utterly destroyed by it? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Why? Because they're not also bad hockey players. 

Sobotka is/was horrible and certainly dragged his linemates down, there's no disputing that. He should never see NHL ice again. But Thompson was also bad and dragged his linemates down. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

 

You should compare Mitts to Thompson. Id be curious to see what that looks like. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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By the way, as far as 'insiders' and the rumors pointing to Botterill's moves, not a single person saw this coming

Just now, LGR4GM said:

You should compare Mitts to Thompson. 

Please don't 

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13 minutes ago, LTS said:

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

This logic is confusing.  Whatever the Sabres "do" is all geared toward winning.   The goal is to win a Stanley Cup.  Every decision is made with this as the ultimate goal.  Therefore every analysis of whatever the team does is in context of achieving the ultimate goal (winning a Cup), no matter how far off that might be.  

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17 minutes ago, LTS said:

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

 

But the problem with this view is it assumes we know what the Sabres are trying to do in each instance. We don't. 

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38 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

Botterill is hoping to win games 2-1 with all this defense and hardly any offense.

need goaltending to do this

Edited by nucci

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9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You should compare Mitts to Thompson. Id be curious to see what that looks like. 

 

8 minutes ago, WildCard said:

By the way, as far as 'insiders' and the rumors pointing to Botterill's moves, not a single person saw this coming

Please don't 

Sorry, WildCard. I hope you're sitting down. 

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Did anyone post the athletic article that does film breakdown of his first two NHL games? If not here it is:
https://theathletic.com/573862/2018/10/07/video-session-breaking-down-henri-jokiharjus-impressive-game-shift-by-shift/

There are some nice video clips in there. @SwampD they show some defensive zone play against NHLers.

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So there is a chance TT gets better or does Casey just stink.

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Image result for always sunny gif angry charlie

Just now, North Buffalo said:

So there is a chance TT gets better or does Casey just stink.

Tbf Casey was a rookie, Tage was not. Casey has shown he can do things an NHL player needs to do, Tage has not

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21 minutes ago, Skibum said:

Two very promising young players/high draft picks who haven't yet lived up to expectations, nobody's sure if they will. One has maybe shown more than the other so far, but one may have a higher ceiling. Lots of people think one side or the other got fleeced, but only time will tell. I always find these trades really interesting, because there is so much risk in trading young talent that could blossom big-time. 

And like with Kassian for Hodgson, both teams involved will be comparing their careers for a long time. Unless they don't have long careers. 

Jokiharju has exceeded expectations though.  He was a late 1st, 29th overall I think.  He made it to the NHL and played pretty well as a 19 year old defenseman.  I don't see how that is disappointing.

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5 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Image result for always sunny gif angry charlie

Tbf Casey was a rookie, Tage was not. Casey has shown he can do things an NHL player needs to do, Tage has not

TT was wildly inconsistent and when the few times he was on his games it was special... especially that shot when accurate.

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2 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

So there is a chance TT gets better or does Casey just stink.

My eye test saw Casey do more promising things this season than Thompson, but neither was an NHL player by metrics or eyes. I have more hope for Casey because he's a year younger and his problems were more of the physically not ready variety than the mentally clueless variety. But really, I'd feel infinitely better about both of them if I could erase the 2018-19 season from my memory. They were both really bad on the whole. 

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1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

My eye test saw Casey do more promising things this season than Thompson, but neither was an NHL player by metrics or eyes. I have more hope for Casey because he's a year younger and his problems were more of the physically not ready variety than the mentally clueless variety. But really, I'd feel infinitely better about both of them if I could erase the 2018-19 season from my memory. They were both really bad on the whole. 

Casey must have felt in over his head at some points in his first, full NHL season. I wouldn't be surprised if he potted 20 goals this season now that he is more experienced as a pro. 

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This is foolish to glean from watching 20 clips from just two games...but IMO Jokiharju's ceiling is sky high. I was impressed as hell by what I saw, against the future stanley cup champions, from a 19 year old. It's summer so we're allowed to be hopeful. 

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6 minutes ago, Curt said:

Jokiharju has exceeded expectations though.  He was a late 1st, 29th overall I think.  He made it to the NHL and played pretty well as a 19 year old defenseman.  I don't see how that is disappointing.

I watched the draft video for Joki on YouTube yesterday.  The commentary right after the Hawks made the pick was that he was a prospect that had moved up draft boards late. It seems like he has continued that trajectory throughout his development in Chicago thus far.  Nylander not so much with us.

Can Chicago fix Nylander and can we F up Jokiharju? Let's plan on drafting a preliminary report circa January 2020.

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16 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

TT was wildly inconsistent and when the few times he was on his games it was special... especially that shot when accurate.

How often, though, was the shot accurate?

Best guess:

Accurate shot count = Goals + 5.

He was awesome at clearing the offensive zone with a shot flying over the net ringing off the boards.

IF he learns to shoot quicker & at about 90-95% of what force he uses now, he might become useful.  If not, he'll never make it.

Edited by Taro T

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