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Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

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Interesting - Just heard Chicago has now traded every 1st round pick from 2011 to 2017.  

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7 hours ago, Thorny said:

I don't think we did if we were simply looking to build a good D. I absolutely love the idea of adding another d prospect with the ceiling of Jokiharju if the aim is building an elite defensive unit. All this talk of ceilings, he's got a higher ceiling than anyone else on our right side defense on the roster/in the system. 

I always remember that quote from I think Friedman back before the Dahlin lottery, where he said it would be much easier for Botterill to "tear this thing down to the studs" if we won. Dahlin gives us the ability to potentially, conceivably build the best defense in the NHL, and I would not be shocked if Botterill is envisioning something similar. 

A strong defensive side is probably also a good fit for us in the Atlantic division. We'd have a very long way to go to match the forward ranks of the Tampas and the Torontos. 

What Thorny said is spot on and I am rather amused by JBott's roster build strategy.

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4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Girgensons never played with Sobotka.  You aren't factoring in the Off_GF Off_xG Off_CF black hole that Sobotka had on everyone he blessed his minutes with.  The guy refused to sustain a forecheck and gave up the offensive zone before his teammates would even lose possession.

 

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Did you ignore the chart from my previous post showing Thompson also sucked in St. Louis? 

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2 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Did you ignore the chart from my previous post showing Thompson also sucked in St. Louis? 

You mean, where he also played with Sobotka and Berglund, lol?

Edited by triumph_communes
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If this trade could have happened swapping TT for Nylander, it would have been better.  I think with some of the additions we have, we might not see TT as much this regular season.  Meanwhile, we'll finally see Nylander get some regular ice time.  

Still, as per the discussion about ROR, I think that it was inevitable Nylander was going to be shipped out of here due to the various cosmic and circumstantial forces that influence such things.

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6 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

You mean, where he also played with Sobotka and Berglund, lol?

How much ice time did they actually have together in St. Louis. 

Anyway, know who else had significant ice time with Sobotka this season? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Know whose metrics weren't utterly destroyed by it? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Why? Because they're not also bad hockey players. 

Sobotka is/was horrible and certainly dragged his linemates down, there's no disputing that. He should never see NHL ice again. But Thompson was also bad and dragged his linemates down. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

2 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

12 assists in 38 games for a rookie. That's pretty good, really. 

 

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23 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Not sure what this has to do with Nylander. How does an AHL'er lose the love of the game at age 20 ?

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

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2 hours ago, Derrico said:

I think this is where you and I weren’t seeing eye to eye.  I still disagree nylander is a better nhl player today than TT.  Your 12 game sample size be damned 😉

But yes if you have no interest in his age and where he is on his development curve then I could see how you got to essentially he’s not a great nhl player today.  I’m still very intrigued in what he will develop into two or three years down the road but I concede he’s a fringe nhler today.

I am too, but since I don't get into prospects the way others do here, when I'm talking about the roster of the current team I tend to laser focus in on that topic, because that's what matters by far the most to me. And while Tage sucks, I certainly feel different about him than I do an older player that sucks, and would obviously not dump him for a 6th like I would Scandella or Sobotka. 

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Charts are annoying. Especially for prospects. Stats are a result, not a reason.

So unless your stats are good right out of the gate, you are never going to make it in the NHL and we should just write them off. Gottit.

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1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

Define "talent".

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8 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I tried to explain that in that post - he sucks if he's a player you're sticking out on NHL ice night after night. In that context, the thing he sucks at is helping the pro hockey team towards the immediate goal - winning tonight, and this season. When I say a player sucks that's what I'm talking about because I mostly avoid all of the prospect discussion around here because it's not that interesting to me. He obviously can become more than a bad NHLer, which, in a different context than one in which I say he sucks (likely lamenting something or other about a recent game or the roster or blah blah blah) I am happy to acknowledge.

But hey, you're getting at suggesting a way I can be less off-putting. I can try to use the word suck less, and use more words to convey these extra points

This is probably why you run into problems.  You are only accepting that the goal was to win that night and win in the season. The Sabres were never a team that was designed to win that given night or win last season. In fact, many teams do not enter a season with that as the ultimate goal. If managing a hockey team were a one and done scenario then it would be about winning.  However, managing a hockey team is about multiple seasons and the development of players over time. Some seasons are not about winning but about improving and developing.  As such, using winning tonight and this season as your measuring stick you are likely to find decisions and actions of which you will not approve.

You can argue what the goal should be.  But if the goal was to develop Thompson then the ruling on how he was developed needs to be held until it's clear it was wrong.

19 minutes ago, GoPre said:

Interesting - Just heard Chicago has now traded every 1st round pick from 2011 to 2017.  

You must have missed the tweet someone copied a few pages back.  Stan Bowman is not good.

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2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Charts are annoying. Especially for prospects. Stats are a result, not a reason.

So unless your stats are good right out of the gate, you are never going to make it in the NHL and we should just write them off. Gottit.

My posts have all been present tense for a reason. Thompson is bad. He doesn't have to stay that way. I'd bet he does, but it's not a given. 

That said, young players who go on to be good usually do show signs of life in the underlying metrics before their traditional metrics and reputation catch up. 

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Small sample size, but the two games Tage got with Jack, they were outscored 5-1 and he turned that line into something essentially useless compared to what they could do without him. Those games actually stick out in my mind when thinking back because they were particularly bad even for him. It's a Tage-processing-NHL-speed issue, not a Tage-linemate issue. He just wasn't ready for the show yet. 

3 minutes ago, LTS said:

This is probably why you run into problems.  You are only accepting that the goal was to win that night and win in the season. The Sabres were never a team that was designed to win that given night or win last season. In fact, many teams do not enter a season with that as the ultimate goal. If managing a hockey team were a one and done scenario then it would be about winning.  However, managing a hockey team is about multiple seasons and the development of players over time. Some seasons are not about winning but about improving and developing.  As such, using winning tonight and this season as your measuring stick you are likely to find decisions and actions of which you will not approve.

You can argue what the goal should be.  But if the goal was to develop Thompson then the ruling on how he was developed needs to be held until it's clear it was wrong.

You must have missed the tweet someone copied a few pages back.  Stan Bowman is not good.

I get all of that, and so I'm not saying that it's all the Sabres SHOULD be trying to do, or what they ARE trying to do. But I pay a lot of money for Buffalo Sabres NHL hockey, so when I'm analyzing it, that's the lens I take, because it gets right to the point of what I'm even doing in the first place. It's like my sole obsession and hobby, ya know?

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15 minutes ago, ... said:

Define "talent".

What you’ll see from Nylander on Chicago.

 

teehee.

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2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Holy sh1t is there a lot of Tage Thompson talk up in har.

I think that's my bad.

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I'm tempted to watch a few blackhawks games tbh, I'm not sure if I have time now though, it might have to wait until next month

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Just now, Randall Flagg said:

I think that's my bad.

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I'm tempted to watch a few blackhawks games tbh, I'm not sure if I have time now though, it might have to wait until next month

Well if you come to the 4th Annual SS Meetup...

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3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Holy sh1t is there a lot of Tage Thompson talk up in har.

I think if he had spent the year in the AHL we wouldn't be talking about him at all. But since he was plugged into this roster, and didn't do anything, there is some angst.

I don't know if he'll ever be any good, but you gotta think this is the year he either makes it stick or he doesn't.

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Just now, SwampD said:

What you’ll see from Nylander on Chicago.

 

teehee.

I'm intrigued to see this, because his thing appears to be finding that soft spot for his teammates to get him the puck, and man oh man is that the entire point of Chicago's game. And I'm not convinced it's evidence of him not caring or trying just yet. 

But I'm happy with the trade either way.

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3 minutes ago, SwampD said:

What you’ll see from Nylander on Chicago.

 

teehee.

You mean floating in the defensive zone, some average speed in his transition and an occasional nice play in the offensive zone followed by 2-3 shifts of nothing?

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