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Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

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7 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wouldn't say anything if I were him, but he's not wrong to be frustrated that we skirted meritocracy between him and Tage as far as right-handed prospects go. He was objectively better in his time here and they should have been swapped (perhaps several times during the season) far earlier than when he finally got up here.

I agree. I still think Alex might be entitled and the Sabres were deliberately placing adversity in his path as part of their development plan and - without actually knowing the kid - may have been right to do so.

Edited by dudacek

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1 minute ago, apuszczalowski said:

While true that Tage didn't play well, it's not like Nylander did anything special to make him deserve being given a roster spot on the NHL team. Prospects should earn/force the team to give them roster spots, not expect it to be handed to them cause of where they were drafted and their fathers name. He did nothing special while here to earn a roster.spot

Meritocracy works in all directions. Tage was sub-NHL level and allowed to stay for 90% of the season, despite it quickly being obvious. Nylander wasn't an AHL superstar, but everything I read at the time indicated it'd be completely reasonable for him to be if not the first, the second guy called up (and Mitts being bad didn't help there). And when he got here, if you value hockey that happens in between goals every 10 games, it is quite clear that one was notably better than the other in that role, and it's not the one that got it all year long.

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

I agree. I still think Alex might be entitled and the Sabres were deliberately placing adversity in his path as part of their development plan and - without actually knowing the kid - may have been right to do so.

That method would look so much better if it didn't come in the form of submarining the NHL lineup and the confidence of the obstacle, who was a key piece in an important trade.

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Analysis of the deal from the Athletic, courtesy Corey Pronman

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

For those without a subscription, the gist:

“Between the two players, Nylander is the more talented by a moderate amount. However, I think Jokiharju is the slightly better player.

Public reaction I saw in the social media sphere shortly after the trade seems to think this is a massively one-sided trade. It isn’t.

As one executive put it after the trade, while agreeing that Nylander is more talented, “he hasn’t got it done yet, and you wonder if he ever will.” In contrast, Jokiharju has looked better as a pro at age 19 than Nylander has at age 20 (or when he was 19, as well).

Edited by dudacek
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3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Analysis of the deal from the Athletic, courtesy Corey Pronman

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

For those without a subscription, the gist:

“Between the two players, Nylander is the more talented by a moderate amount. However, I think Jokiharju is the slightly better player.

Public reaction I saw in the social media sphere shortly after the trade seems to think this is a massively one-sided trade. It isn’t.

As one executive put it after the trade, while agreeing that Nylander is more talented, “he hasn’t got it done yet, and you wonder if he ever will.” In contrast, Jokiharju has looked better as a pro at age 19 than Nylander has at age 20 (or when he was 19, as well).”p

This is fair. I think Nylander has a clearly higher ceiling, but there's also a reasonable chance he's a complete washout. Jokiharju is much more likely to be a long term NHL contributor. 

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2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

That method would look so much better if it didn't come in the form of submarining the NHL lineup and the confidence of the obstacle, who was a key piece in an important trade.

Absolutely. Tage and Alex did not have to tied together. Guys like Olofsson, Smith and O”Regan  were outplaying  Nylander in December/January. Same for Asplund and Leier later on.

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28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Samuelsson too. I think Botterill wants irons in fires. 

Only if Dahlin swtiches the the right, which is doubtful. 

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Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

 

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28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Two high prospects at different positions traded for each other before they boom or bust?

I don't think Hodgson and Kassian were prospects when they were dealt. 

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JB has started slowly but ramped it up lately with all of us expecting more.   How many more trades are required before it qualifies as “roster surgery”?  Paging Doctor Botterill !  

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1 hour ago, Mustache of God said:

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/video/henri-jokiharju-making-impact-his-first-games-season

 

 

2nd link is blackhawk player/coach interviews about him at the beginning of the season with some NHL footage.

Great highlights. Can he play D? I really hope he works out for us because I still think Nylander will be good.

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18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Analysis of the deal from the Athletic, courtesy Corey Pronman

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

For those without a subscription, the gist:

“Between the two players, Nylander is the more talented by a moderate amount. However, I think Jokiharju is the slightly better player.

Public reaction I saw in the social media sphere shortly after the trade seems to think this is a massively one-sided trade. It isn’t.

As one executive put it after the trade, while agreeing that Nylander is more talented, “he hasn’t got it done yet, and you wonder if he ever will.” In contrast, Jokiharju has looked better as a pro at age 19 than Nylander has at age 20 (or when he was 19, as well).

If it's not one-sided now (plenty of prominent hockey people don't share Pronman's analysis), it will be in a couple years, give or take. 

Edited by Thorny

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3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't think Hodgson and Kassian were prospects when they were dealt. 

Cody had played 71 NHL games, Zach 17, Henri 38 and Alex 19.

Wouldn’t call any of them established.

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27 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wouldn't say anything if I were him, but he's not wrong to be frustrated that we skirted meritocracy between him and Tage as far as right-handed prospects go. He was objectively better in his time here and they should have been swapped (perhaps several times during the season) far earlier than when he finally got up here.

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

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5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Cody had played 71 NHL games, Zach 17, Henri 38 and Alex 19.

Wouldn’t call any of them established.

Well, Cody was 22, and a forward, and in retrospect he never got any better, statistically, than what he was when we acquired him. Hope this isn't, and don't think it will be, the case with HJ. 

Edit - Actually, his lockout year he improved his p/pg. But his highest point total was 44, and he had 41 the season we grabbed him. 

Edited by Thorny

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6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

Tage did actively bad things every shift to create metrics that describe him as a bottom 5-10 skater to touch NHL ice all season. these things included direct-assisting to opponents goals via multiple avenues, including ridiculous toe-drag attempts and being completely overwhelmed mentally with the speed of the game (a panic throw back on an odd man rush that give WPG a two on one goal, for example). 

Alex didn't actively do a lot of positive things, but he brought nothing like this, er, ability, to the table, and scored goals roughly twice as often per unit ice time given (of course, small sample size, but I know you like goals and traditional counting stats, so I'm just showing that alex torches tage here as well as the other stuff)

Alex was objectively and in every possible manner better at NHL hockey than Tage Thompson in the 2018-19 season, in his 12 games and Tage's 65. Largely as a function of just how awful Tage truly was.

If only these two were worth breaking out the camera again to get into even more detail

Edited by Randall Flagg
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14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

 

Probably the reason we have an entirely new organization. We saw the same with Rex and Marrone, haven't seen that with MvBeane; quite the opposite

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13 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

 

I'm hoping the things that were "off" for him were primarily the treatment from Cal O'R and housley's preference for Tage. I.e., I hope we're moving away from being a clown organization 

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1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Probably the reason we have an entirely new organization. We saw the same with Rex and Marrone, haven't seen that with MvBeane; quite the opposite

FWIW, all of those comments/situations occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Edited by Randall Flagg

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7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

I don't think you realize just how utterly awhile TT was/is

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

FWIW, all of those comments occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Under the current GM but players brought/raised by the former GM

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3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

FWIW, all of those comments/situations occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Well the Cal O'Reilly bit seems the most damning, that was under Murray, no?

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5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well, Cody was 22, and a forward, and in retrospect he never got any better, statistically, than what he was when we acquired him. Hope this isn't, and don't think it will be, the case with HJ. 

Edit - Actually, his lockout year he improved his p/pg. But his highest point total was 44, and he had 41 the season we grabbed him. 

Geez, Cody had 34 points in 48 games that year. Better than I remembered and pretty good for a 22-year-old. Similar to Sam Reinhart’s numbers at that age.

What might have been if he hadn’t have come down with illness.

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2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well the Cal O'Reilly bit seems the most damning, that was under Murray, no?

That did, but I don't think that really fits into the group of events/quotes I was talking about - just players themselves potentially being skeptical of organizational competence

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7 hours ago, woods-racer said:

It could be as innocent as JBott was shopping Nylander and got offered this.

But your assessment is not out of the realm.

Occam's Razor. 

Always start with the simple/obvious, and build out from there.

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