So Who Won The Sabres Winnipeg Trade?

[PASabreFan]

At least most of the focus of fans' ire has shifted to Murray. Even at the end of Murray's tenure, most of the blame still went to Darcy. Even today, a lot of the blame is assigned to Darcy. One thing is constant. It's never the current GM's fault.

 

Botterill hired a high school coach who is out of his element, turned over half the roster, tried to fix the D and suggested this was an evaluation year — the results speak for themselves. Bad GMTM, bad Darcy!

[Robviously]

At least most of the focus of fans' ire has shifted to Murray. Even at the end of Murray's tenure, most of the blame still went to Darcy. Even today, a lot of the blame is assigned to Darcy. One thing is constant. It's never the current GM's fault.

 

Botterill hired a high school coach who is out of his element, turned over half the roster, tried to fix the D and suggested this was an evaluation year — the results speak for themselves. Bad GMTM, bad Darcy!

The bottom half.  I'm not sure Foligno and Ennis for Scandella and Pominville was supposed to be a franchise-altering move.  And every other move was way smaller in scale than that.

 

Considering how terrible Tim Murray was, I'm willing to give Botterill more than half a season to turn things around.  And it's very noticeable that seemingly no one here has the same level of enthusiasm for Botterill that we did for Murray when he first showed up.  Everyone is cautiously optimistic, but no one is buying into the ZFG t-shirt bullcrap that was "Concept of GMTM."  Let's see what he can do.  There's some reason for hope given his philosophy, initial moves, and the fact that he immediately got Rochester to a good place (something Murray talked about but failed completely with).

[Weave]

My work here is finally showing fruit.

 

:wub:

[etiennep99]

.  And it's very noticeable that seemingly no one here has the same level of enthusiasm for Botterill that we did for Murray when he first showed up.  Everyone is cautiously optimistic, but no one is buying into the ZFG t-shirt bullcrap that was "Concept of GMTM."

 

 

During the tank years, having Ted Nolan and GMTM was FUN. They were the only life in the party.  Botterill is so bland. GMJB has NO personality.

GMDR had more personality than GMJB.  Gerry Meehan was a freakin' lawyer, but he helped Mogilny defect and got us Hasek. 

 

But that seems to be the pattern: big highs and huge lows.

Imlach - crazy outspoken a WINNER

Anderson - Who?

Bowman - tough and benighted, got us some good talent, but it never worked out

Meehan - a lawyer, yuck..but did kinda OK

Muckler - Experienced, insightful, way over-reliant on washed out players (Grant Fuhr for Andreychuck, Puppa, AND a #1 pick. WTF?)

Regier - bland, timid, but somehow got things down until the end

Murray - crazy, shoots from the hip.  Hey, even Doug Whaley wanted to have a beer with the dude.

Botterill - ugh. Back to boring, boring, boring.  Mechanical, monotone, formulaic.  His formula for success had better work!

[Radar]

During the tank years, having Ted Nolan and GMTM was FUN. They were the only life in the party.  Botterill is so bland. GMJB has NO personality.

GMDR had more personality than GMJB.  Gerry Meehan was a freakin' lawyer, but he helped Mogilny defect and got us Hasek. 

 

But that seems to be the pattern: big highs and huge lows.

Imlach - crazy outspoken a WINNER

Anderson - Who?

Bowman - tough and benighted, got us some good talent, but it never worked out

Meehan - a lawyer, yuck..but did kinda OK

Muckler - Experienced, insightful, way over-reliant on washed out players (Grant Fuhr for Andreychuck, Puppa, AND a #1 pick. WTF?)

Regier - bland, timid, but somehow got things down until the end

Murray - crazy, shoots from the hip.  Hey, even Doug Whaley wanted to have a beer with the dude.

Botterill - ugh. Back to boring, boring, boring.  Mechanical, monotone, formulaic.  His formula for success had better work!

So you want personality? How about Rex Ryan. Or lacking personality....who's that drab guy from the Patriots? Just give efficiency and someone who has a vision and a plan. Doesn't have to entertain me.

[PASabreFan]

During the tank years, having Ted Nolan and GMTM was FUN. They were the only life in the party.  Botterill is so bland. GMJB has NO personality.

GMDR had more personality than GMJB.  Gerry Meehan was a freakin' lawyer, but he helped Mogilny defect and got us Hasek. 

 

But that seems to be the pattern: big highs and huge lows.

Imlach - crazy outspoken a WINNER

Anderson - Who?

Bowman - tough and benighted, got us some good talent, but it never worked out

Meehan - a lawyer, yuck..but did kinda OK

Muckler - Experienced, insightful, way over-reliant on washed out players (Grant Fuhr for Andreychuck, Puppa, AND a #1 pick. WTF?)

Regier - bland, timid, but somehow got things down until the end

Murray - crazy, shoots from the hip.  Hey, even Doug Whaley wanted to have a beer with the dude.

Botterill - ugh. Back to boring, boring, boring.  Mechanical, monotone, formulaic.  His formula for success had better work!

Good stuff. Only eight GMs in almost 50 years is pretty impressive.

The bottom half.  I'm not sure Foligno and Ennis for Scandella and Pominville was supposed to be a franchise-altering move.  And every other move was way smaller in scale than that.

 

Considering how terrible Tim Murray was, I'm willing to give Botterill more than half a season to turn things around.  And it's very noticeable that seemingly no one here has the same level of enthusiasm for Botterill that we did for Murray when he first showed up.  Everyone is cautiously optimistic, but no one is buying into the ZFG t-shirt bullcrap that was "Concept of GMTM."  Let's see what he can do.  There's some reason for hope given his philosophy, initial moves, and the fact that he immediately got Rochester to a good place (something Murray talked about but failed completely with).

The gap between what this team should be, even in another reset kind of year, and what it is is what concerns me. Someone has to be held accountable for it. Unless... we are who they thought we were. I kind of doubt anyone expected 10 wins in the first half.

Edited January 14, 2018 by PASabreFan

[pi2000]

The hate for GMTM grows with ever passing day. I, for one, liked just about all his moves, they made sense at the time and just about everybody here was on board.

 

The team improved by over 20 points in Bylsma's first year, regressed by a handful of points the next year without Eichel for the first half of the season... then Pegula blew it up.

 

Now we have a first year head coach who is having trouble getting a consistent effort from his team and all everybody wants to do here is lambast Tim Murray.

[PASabreFan]

The hate for GMTM grows with ever passing day. I, for one, liked just about all his moves, they made sense at the time and just about everybody here was on board.

 

The team improved by over 20 points in Bylsma's first year, regressed by a handful of points the next year without Eichel for the first half of the season... then Pegula blew it up.

 

Now we have a first year head coach who is having trouble getting a consistent effort from his team and all everybody wants to do here is lambast Tim Murray.

Right? I guess the O'Reilly trade sucks now, too. When he traded Pysyk, it was the beginning of the end for the hockey fan intelligensia.

[Sabre fan]

they always said whoever gets th ebest player wins the trade...thus Sabres getting Jack and kane win easily...unfortunately we do not get to keep Kane so we have to see the return. this is by far GMJBotto's most important move. he absolutely must get good and fair quality in return for Kane. Any othe rtrade is completely secondary to the forthcoming kane  deal

[etiennep99]

So you want personality? How about Rex Ryan. Or lacking personality....who's that drab guy from the Patriots? Just give efficiency and someone who has a vision and a plan. Doesn't have to entertain me.

 

The point was that in the tank years, they were the entertainment.   The Sabres suck on the ice, AND off the ice, entertainment wise.

(RJ is still great. I actually like Dan Dunlevey. He's no RJ, but who is?  That Philly game that was (cough) moved (not) to 1520, I

had to listen to the Flyers broadcast; their play-by-play guy was annoying.)

 

Also, for psychological reasons too complex to detail, I believe that personality is an excellent reflection of intelligence. Sure, Rainmen exist. Maybe

GMJB is one. 

 

Who hired Nolan and GMTM, Pat LaLaLaLaFontaine.  Pat was smart. He was a super-star. He is doing well in NYC working for the NHL.

Pat had personality.  His emotion and drive were key elements to his ALL STAR success.  JB the player never lived up to expectations.

His claim to fame was working as an NHL assistant negotiator and for helping the Penguins some.

 

The Amerks are better this year.  Kriscuolo was a good find. But many of his imports are 25ish or older; they are not real prospects anymore.

 

My biggest problems with GMTM were his drafting. He was supposed to be a draft guru. I coughed when he drafted Reinhart over Draisaitl.

I choked when he drafted Nylander....

 

I was never a HUGE ROR fan. I didn't understand all of the praise and worship. I can still hear in my head the one WGR broadcast where

Shoop and Bulldog are raving about ROR just before the trade.  No doubt, he's very good all around player. But he's not Anze Kopitar 

carry the team to success good.  GMTM won that trade, no doubt....I didn't care for the Kane trade. I had visions of Myers, Risto, and Zadorov

towering over everyone in the league.  That seemed to be Darcy's plan. Tim blew it up.

 

OK. tl;dr...yada yada yada.

[Robviously]

The hate for GMTM grows with ever passing day. I, for one, liked just about all his moves, they made sense at the time and just about everybody here was on board.

 

The team improved by over 20 points in Bylsma's first year, regressed by a handful of points the next year without Eichel for the first half of the season... then Pegula blew it up.

 

Now we have a first year head coach who is having trouble getting a consistent effort from his team and all everybody wants to do here is lambast Tim Murray.

Responding to the last part first: He was getting lambasted last year too -- while his team was deteriorating and he wasn't doing anything to change that.  People were finally catching on that the emperor had no clothes.  We broke the bank for Moulson and Okposo and the big trades for Kane/Bogo and Lehner were duds.

 

As for everyone being on board at the time, you can find the thread from when the Kane/Bogo trade was on board and no one was really all the pumped.  The board hated the Lehner trade.  There wasn't much love for the Kulikov trade.  People didn't hate the Fasching/Deslauriers trade but that was based on "let's wait and see" and it really hasn't panned out.  The board never celebrated everything he did, but I don't think people started evaluating his entire body of work until the last 12 months.

 

He hit a home run early on with ROR/McGinn but the totality of his moves was a slow, overpaid team that isn't built for the modern NHL.  And now it's up to Botterill to fix that.

[Brawndo]

Darcy built some of the greatest Sabres Teams in franchise history, but towards the end his drafting left the team with little prospect depth. It was time to move on from him. He did however leave a plethora of draft picks for GMTM.

 

Unfortunately GMTM rather rebuilding the prospect pool and surrounding Jack with players on ELCs, he went for a quick fix that failed.

 

His draft choices in Pu, Asplund, Guhle, Olofsson, Budik, Borgen and Fitzgerald look promising, although I’m not convinced that Borgen or Fitzgerald ever play a NHL Game for the Sabres. Time will tell

 

It’s to early to make any judgements about Botterill. Yes he brought in ten new players, but he is saddled with too many long term contracts to make a quick turnaround. Of those ten, only Beaulieu and Scandella probably figurw2e into the teams long term plans.

 

And The 21st Overall Pick For Lehner and Legwand is what started my questioning GMTM.

Responding to the last part first: He was getting lambasted last year too -- while his team was deteriorating and he wasn't doing anything to change that. People were finally catching on that the emperor had no clothes. We broke the bank for Moulson and Okposo and the big trades for Kane/Bogo and Lehner were duds.

 

As for everyone being on board at the time, you can find the thread from when the Kane/Bogo trade was on board and no one was really all the pumped. The board hated the Lehner trade. There wasn't much love for the Kulikov trade. People didn't hate the Fasching/Deslauriers trade but that was based on "let's wait and see" and it really hasn't panned out. The board never celebrated everything he did, but I don't think people started evaluating his entire body of work until the last 12 months.

 

He hit a home run early on with ROR/McGinn but the totality of his moves was a slow, overpaid team that isn't built for the modern NHL. And now it's up to Botterill to fix that.

Something I always wondered, if the Sabres had not made the Lehner Trade, but instead included that in the ROR Deal would JT Compher still be on the team? Edited January 14, 2018 by Brawndo

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Was it not the 21st pick for Lehner and Legwand?

[Beer]

This trade deadline and draft are going to tell us a lot about JBotts. I personally think he's doing it the right way by building a strong foundation in Rochester. It will take some patience. I just hope he focuses his attention on defense. As our defense improves so will our offense.

[Huckleberry]

The hate for GMTM grows with ever passing day. I, for one, liked just about all his moves, they made sense at the time and just about everybody here was on board.

 

The team improved by over 20 points in Bylsma's first year, regressed by a handful of points the next year without Eichel for the first half of the season... then Pegula blew it up.

 

Now we have a first year head coach who is having trouble getting a consistent effort from his team and all everybody wants to do here is lambast Tim Murray.

 

 I liked each and every trade at the time, thought we had a steal in kulikov.     The jets trade seemed pretty balanced, still think it was.   

[stenbaro]

It doesn't matter, neither team will win the Cup..LOL...

[Brawndo]

Was it not the 21st pick for Lehner and Legwand?

My bad I have Brock Boeser on the brain

[Sabres Fan in NS]

My bad I have Brock Boeser on the brain

 

:lol:

 

No worries.

[Taro T]

Darcy built some of the greatest Sabres Teams in franchise history, but towards the end his drafting left the team with little prospect depth. It was time to move on from him. He did however leave a plethora of draft picks for GMTM.

Unfortunately GMTM rather rebuilding the prospect pool and surrounding Jack with players on ELCs, he went for a quick fix that failed.

His draft choices in Pu, Asplund, Guhle, Olofsson, Budik, Borgen and Fitzgerald look promising, although I’m not convinced that Borgen or Fitzgerald ever play a NHL Game for the Sabres. Time will tell

It’s to early to make any judgements about Botterill. Yes he brought in ten new players, but he is saddled with too many long term contracts to make a quick turnaround. Of those ten, only Beaulieu and Scandella probably figurw2e into the teams long term plans.

And The 21st Overall Pick For Lehner and Legwand is what started my questioning GMTM.

Something I always wondered, if the Sabres had not made the Lehner Trade, but instead included that in the ROR Deal would JT Compher still be on the team?

And a HUGE reason for leaving a relatively bare prospect cupboard was not making a stronger case to Golisano/ Quinn that video scouting in place of a fully staffed scouting department rather than as a supplement to one was a HUGE mistake & would not only hamper a generic team but cripple one that had an internal cap.

 

Regier got unfairly blamed for a lot of stuff, but that one came under his watch & he had to know how horrible of an idea it was.

[Robviously]

And a HUGE reason for leaving a relatively bare prospect cupboard was not making a stronger case to Golisano/ Quinn that video scouting in place of a fully staffed scouting department rather than as a supplement to one was a HUGE mistake & would not only hamper a generic team but cripple one that had an internal cap.

 

Regier got unfairly blamed for a lot of stuff, but that one came under his watch & he had to know how horrible of an idea it was.

Agree completely but I'm not sure what we're supposed to say about Regier there.  I'm sure he knew that was a bad idea (just like fans would intuitively know it's a bad idea) but was he supposed to quit?  Threaten to quit?  Change their minds?  I don't think we know what he realistically could have done in that situation.

 

One of the things I've learned working in the corporate world is that big companies, or really anywhere with an intractable hierarchy (and sports teams count), sometimes have bad ideas championed by leaders and the middle managers are tasked with trying to find a way to make it work.  You can push back if you think your job is safe, but that still won't mean a change in direction.  Either something like that happened or he read the writing on the wall and just tried to make it work.  I can't imagine an NHL GM giving the thumbs up to that idea.

[Weave]

And a HUGE reason for leaving a relatively bare prospect cupboard was not making a stronger case to Golisano/ Quinn that video scouting in place of a fully staffed scouting department rather than as a supplement to one was a HUGE mistake & would not only hamper a generic team but cripple one that had an internal cap.

 

Regier got unfairly blamed for a lot of stuff, but that one came under his watch & he had to know how horrible of an idea it was.

 

Pegula took the reigns in 2011 and immediately announced an end to video based scouting.  Any prospects that would have been here if we never had video scouting would be very long in the tooth, prospects-wise.  I'm not sure we can blame the bare cupboards on video scouting any more.

[Sabel79]

Pegula took the reigns in 2011 and immediately announced an end to video based scouting.  Any prospects that would have been here if we never had video scouting would be very long in the tooth, prospects-wise.  I'm not sure we can blame the bare cupboards on video scouting any more.

This is fair, but XGMTM coming in and trading every draft pick that wasn't nailed down (with returns of varying quality) didn't help afterwards...

[PASabreFan]

And a HUGE reason for leaving a relatively bare prospect cupboard was not making a stronger case to Golisano/ Quinn that video scouting in place of a fully staffed scouting department rather than as a supplement to one was a HUGE mistake & would not only hamper a generic team but cripple one that had an internal cap.

 

Regier got unfairly blamed for a lot of stuff, but that one came under his watch & he had to know how horrible of an idea it was.

I'm not so sure how horrible Darcy thought the idea was. The following quote, from an article in the News in 2006, makes it sound like he had the idea pre-Golisano.

 

"It's something we probably should have started earlier, but because of the resistance to change it's something I never pushed as hard as I probably should have," Regier said of the video-based scouting system.

 

I also don't think video scouting replaced traditional scouting. It was, indeed, a supplement borne out of staff reductions mandated by Golisano and Quinn.

 

"Tom Golisano took over as the owner and he cut not only the scouting department, but almost all the departments in the organization," Benning said. "We figured out a way to get the same coverage by not having as big a staff, but in some cases getting more coverage through use of the video and other different ideas Darcy had."

 

http://www.hockeyforum.com/nhl-forum/1409-sabres-review-scouting-go-video.html

[Taro T]

Pegula took the reigns in 2011 and immediately announced an end to video based scouting. Any prospects that would have been here if we never had video scouting would be very long in the tooth, prospects-wise. I'm not sure we can blame the bare cupboards on video scouting any more.

I'm not so sure how horrible Darcy thought the idea was. The following quote, from an article in the News in 2006, makes it sound like he had the idea pre-Golisano.

 

"It's something we probably should have started earlier, but because of the resistance to change it's something I never pushed as hard as I probably should have," Regier said of the video-based scouting system.

 

I also don't think video scouting replaced traditional scouting. It was, indeed, a supplement borne out of staff reductions mandated by Golisano and Quinn.

 

"Tom Golisano took over as the owner and he cut not only the scouting department, but almost all the departments in the organization," Benning said. "We figured out a way to get the same coverage by not having as big a staff, but in some cases getting more coverage through use of the video and other different ideas Darcy had."

 

http://www.hockeyforum.com/nhl-forum/1409-sabres-review-scouting-go-video.html

And therein lies a rub. Video scouting as a supplement to the existing scouting COULD be an effective tool. But it necessarily had to be A tool & not THE tool. It was brought in to allow a significantly reduced staff cover the same territory as the old full staff covered.

 

By the time Pegula took over, it really doesn't seem that Regier knew HOW to put together an effective scouting staff. By then his former lieutenants such as Benning & Luce were long gone IIRC. Did they build the old staff that found late round gems & NHLers that seemed middling elsewhere but fit in well or was it Regier. Results might indicate it was more the former than the latter.

 

Mistakes (& successes too) in assembling scouting staffs are rarely changed overnight. Which makes one wonder whether Murray's seemimgly good (minus the Nylander pick) last draft & Botterill's draft w/ presumably a lot of input from Murray's guys will continue to be replicated w/ Botterill's full remake of the scouting department.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Taro T

[Huckleberry]

We got the best player which is Kane.   We will trade him and sign him again as UFA. 

 

that is a double win :D