darksabre Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) You word it this way and it suggests you feel strongly about what happened when the Europeans settled (invaded) North America. I have asked others who are not descended from the indigenous people of North America why they feel compelled to point this out. I listen to their response which usually falls into a couple of categories, all of which are pretty good. My next question is... if you feel that strongly about it, why do you continue to live here and further the oppression started by your ancestors? It's a bit hypocritical to call this subjugation out and then continue to live here and perpetuate it... isn't it? Of course I don't ask this of the people I know who are descended of the indigenous people of North America as their point of view is well supported. :) Just food for thought. Onto more pressing matters... The Sabres need to show in this game. Starting 0-2-1 or 0-1-2 would not reflect well. Certainly not the end of the world, but they need to inject some positivity into the season. Perhaps simply scoring a PP goal or two and NOT giving up a SHG will do that? Either way.. game on at 3pm. The easy answer to this very hard question is that there's no point. We can't go back through that door. (Some of) our ancestors came here and probably would have coexisted, but some didn't. Some, driven by their "god given destiny" (tongue firmly in cheek) went west and suffered brutal and predictable attacks by indigenous people defending their land, way of life, etc. They fought back and, predictably, exterminated them. "I was here first" isn't exactly the strongest argument, but it's not entirely invalid either. The philosophical question is whether or not we had a right to impose our way of life, our systems of land ownership, our economics, our religions, etc., on the indigenous people. Which brings us to another weak, but not entirely wrong argument, which is that mankind is just perpetually engaged in struggles of strong vs less strong. I refuse to use "weak" here because I think that adds a level condescension that is inappropriate. But there's not a place on earth where there are no classes. Unfortunately for the indigenous people, they were the less strong. And for mankind at its most basic, this is fair. European colonists, our ancestors, met the indigenous people of this land on the field of battle and won. That's the long and short of it. But that winning comes with a lot of baggage. With a lot of responsibility. With a respect for the subjugated that our ancestors didn't have. So that now, hundreds of years later, we're trying to figure out how to reconcile the idea that US citizens of indigenous descent are also still the conquered. I've re-read that a few times and it makes me want to groan as if I were Sisyphus. As Marty McFly would say, "That's heavy, Doc." I don't have the answer. I don't know what the right thing to do is, if there even is a right thing. But what I do know is that it doesn't bother me one bit to send Christopher Columbus to the scrap heap of history. If we want to celebrate European colonization of the American continent, all we have to do is wake up every day. Edited October 9, 2017 by d4rksabre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_sauve28 Posted October 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 The easy answer to this very hard question is that there's no point. We can't go back through that door. (Some of) our ancestors came here and probably would have coexisted, but some didn't. Some, driven by their "god given destiny" (tongue firmly in cheek) went west and suffered brutal and predictable attacks by indigenous people defending their land, way of life, etc. They fought back and, predictably, exterminated them. "I was here first" isn't exactly the strongest argument, but it's not entirely invalid either. The philosophical question is whether or not we had a right to impose our way of life, our systems of land ownership, our economics, our religions, etc., on the indigenous people. Which brings us to another weak, but not entirely wrong argument, which is that mankind just perpetually engaged in struggles of strong vs less strong. I refuse to use "weak" here because I think that adds a level condescension that is inappropriate. But there's not a place on earth where there are no classes. Unfortunately for the indigenous people, they were the less strong. And for mankind at its most basic, this is fair. European colonists, our ancestors, met the indigenous people of this land on the field of battle and won. That's the long and short of it. But that winning comes with a lot of baggage. With a lot of responsibility. With a respect for the subjugated that our ancestors didn't have. So that now, hundreds of years later, we're trying to figure out how to reconcile the idea that US citizens of indigenous descent are also still the conquered. I've re-read that a few times and it makes me want to groan as if I were Sisyphus. As Marty McFly would say, "That's heavy, Doc." I don't have the answer. I don't know what the right thing to do is, if there even is a right thing. But what I do know that it doesn't bother me one bit to send Christopher Columbus to the scrap heap of history. If we want to celebrate European colonization of the American continent, all we have to do is wake up every day. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 The easy answer to this very hard question is that there's no point. We can't go back through that door. (Some of) our ancestors came here and probably would have coexisted, but some didn't. Some, driven by their "god given destiny" (tongue firmly in cheek) went west and suffered brutal and predictable attacks by indigenous people defending their land, way of life, etc. They fought back and, predictably, exterminated them. "I was here first" isn't exactly the strongest argument, but it's not entirely invalid either. The philosophical question is whether or not we had a right to impose our way of life, our systems of land ownership, our economics, our religions, etc., on the indigenous people. Which brings us to another weak, but not entirely wrong argument, which is that mankind is just perpetually engaged in struggles of strong vs less strong. I refuse to use "weak" here because I think that adds a level condescension that is inappropriate. But there's not a place on earth where there are no classes. Unfortunately for the indigenous people, they were the less strong. And for mankind at its most basic, this is fair. European colonists, our ancestors, met the indigenous people of this land on the field of battle and won. That's the long and short of it. But that winning comes with a lot of baggage. With a lot of responsibility. With a respect for the subjugated that our ancestors didn't have. So that now, hundreds of years later, we're trying to figure out how to reconcile the idea that US citizens of indigenous descent are also still the conquered. I've re-read that a few times and it makes me want to groan as if I were Sisyphus. As Marty McFly would say, "That's heavy, Doc." I don't have the answer. I don't know what the right thing to do is, if there even is a right thing. But what I do know is that it doesn't bother me one bit to send Christopher Columbus to the scrap heap of history. If we want to celebrate European colonization of the American continent, all we have to do is wake up every day. I responded to a few in direct message but you have a very well thought out message here. I wanted to clarify and potentially put the conversation to bed so we can focus on the Devils... and I don't mean the white ones. My comment was not intended as a love it or leave it message. My question, perhaps better stated, is that if you are a white guy living on the land your ancestors helped take from the indigenous people and you begin calling out your ancestors for taking it, where does it begin to become a bit of a hollow sentiment from the indigenous people point of view? The idea was to make people think about what they are saying and how it can be viewed by others. If you continue to be here then you are, in some way, continuing the possession of the land. I can certainly say that if you were to leave the country you would be supporting your viewpoint. At the same time are there things that can be done with the acknowledgement of the past that might carry more meaning than just saying "Happy Indigenous People Subjugation Day." I realize the initial comment came across as casting judgment and it was not my intention. My intention was to stimulate thought about the statements being made relative to the where the statement is coming from. Let's talk about the Sabres.. And I am all in favor of eliminating "Columbus Day". It is a very stupid holiday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 You word it this way and it suggests you feel strongly about what happened when the Europeans settled (invaded) North America. I have asked others who are not descended from the indigenous people of North America why they feel compelled to point this out. I listen to their response which usually falls into a couple of categories, all of which are pretty good. My next question is... if you feel that strongly about it, why do you continue to live here and further the oppression started by your ancestors? It's a bit hypocritical to call this subjugation out and then continue to live here and perpetuate it... isn't it? Of course I don't ask this of the people I know who are descended of the indigenous people of North America as their point of view is well supported. :) Just food for thought. Onto more pressing matters... The Sabres need to show in this game. Starting 0-2-1 or 0-1-2 would not reflect well. Certainly not the end of the world, but they need to inject some positivity into the season. Perhaps simply scoring a PP goal or two and NOT giving up a SHG will do that? Either way.. game on at 3pm. No, it's really not, as D4rk neither participated nor (implicitly or explicitly) endorsed it at the time. Unless you also think we shouldn't call slavery bad because we continue to live here. Wouldn't want to be hypocrites, after all! I normally enjoy your posts and think you bring a lot of insight, from hockey to beer. But this right here was an unbelievably bad take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 My only issue with Columbus Day is I don't get it off. Make it a Federal Holiday dammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I responded to a few in direct message but you have a very well thought out message here. I wanted to clarify and potentially put the conversation to bed so we can focus on the Devils... and I don't mean the white ones. My comment was not intended as a love it or leave it message. My question, perhaps better stated, is that if you are a white guy living on the land your ancestors helped take from the indigenous people and you begin calling out your ancestors for taking it, where does it begin to become a bit of a hollow sentiment from the indigenous people point of view? The idea was to make people think about what they are saying and how it can be viewed by others. If you continue to be here then you are, in some way, continuing the possession of the land. I can certainly say that if you were to leave the country you would be supporting your viewpoint. At the same time are there things that can be done with the acknowledgement of the past that might carry more meaning than just saying "Happy Indigenous People Subjugation Day." I realize the initial comment came across as casting judgment and it was not my intention. My intention was to stimulate thought about the statements being made relative to the where the statement is coming from. Let's talk about the Sabres.. And I am all in favor of eliminating "Columbus Day". It is a very stupid holiday. Oh, I didn't take your comment that way at all. It's completely valid, and as you can tell I've given it substantial thought previously. And I'm sure I will give it more thought in the days and years to come. I think today is as good a time as any to try to present some of the big questions that surround this topic, if only to make it obvious that it is complex and requires drawing some very clear lines that we'd rather not (and that don't feel very good). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 My only issue with Columbus Day is I don't get it off. Make it a Federal Holiday dammit I'm at school too because they think OU-Texas is the most important National Holiday, so we have this Friday off instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I'm at school too because they think OU-Texas is the most important National Holiday, so we have this Friday off instead How are classes going with OU losing this weekend? Do you go to any of the games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 How are classes going with OU losing this weekend? Do you go to any of the games? Well nobody I know cares about the football games so today is like any other day. I haven't been into any yet but will go to one later when it cools down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Johnson in net Rest of lineup the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Johnson in net Rest of lineup the same Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Why is Moulson still here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Injury update: @kylepalmieri and Drew Stafford (lower body injuries) will not be in the lineup today. #NJDvsBUF Per Devils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ugh an early game and I have to work tonight. Can still catch the first period though :p Hoping the team explodes tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Johnson in net Rest of lineup the same Interesting. But maybe not. I suspect that with our light schedule this week they're electing to give Lehner a break after getting kicked around on Saturday. He got knocked over pretty good and also took a puck in the mask, so he may just be banged up, but not enough to not be the backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Injury update: @kylepalmieri and Drew Stafford (lower body injuries) will not be in the lineup today. #NJDvsBUF Per Devils I was looking forward to Stafford's triumphant return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Fug, 26 hours of flying, then right to work, so not only can I not watch, but I'm the epitome of a walking zombie.... Like our team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 This is probably for another thread but last night Rick Jeanneret liked an Instagram post of mine. It made my night. It was a picture of my bicycle. Go Sabres! Beat the Devils! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 This is probably for another thread but last night Rick Jeanneret liked an Instagram post of mine. It made my night. It was a picture of my bicycle. Go Sabres! Beat the Devils! That's super neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 No, it's really not, as D4rk neither participated nor (implicitly or explicitly) endorsed it at the time. Unless you also think we shouldn't call slavery bad because we continue to live here. Wouldn't want to be hypocrites, after all! I normally enjoy your posts and think you bring a lot of insight, from hockey to beer. But this right here was an unbelievably bad take. I can’t help myself ... and have nothing to say about Columbus Day ... More interesting, though, to me, is the construction. Wouldn’t subjugation, to the extent it’s land stealing and culture extinguishing, be very different from slavery as objects? I think your construct is, “we can live here and acknowledge bad things happened without having to leave.” I agree. I think LTS’ construct is, “you continue to do the bad thing, living on indigenous land our fathers took from theirs.” We cannot return freedom to deceased slaves. We can return land to the indigenous. Again, forgetting the tempest in a teapot debate around today’s holiday, I think LTS’ take was spot on. I read it as “if you’re vexed, what are you doing about it.” “You’re on a sofa, complaining, and something can be done.” True of subjugation, not slavery. Of course, the joy is in the complaining, and not the doing. And so, nothing to do, here, until another outrage can be plucked from the ether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) Just food for thought. A friend posted this on FB: A little history -- Columbus Day was created as a way to hold up an Italian and Catholic hero when there was a lot of discrimination against them in the United States. You may recall the movie "It's a Wonderful Life" and Mr. Potter who referred to the Italian immigrants as "a bunch of garlic eaters." I'm sure the Italian-American director Frank Capra experienced minor slights like this one first hand. So while it is completely fair to recognized the horrible things that Columbus and those who came after him did, it is also important to recognize WHY the holiday was created in the late 1800s and that its purpose was to help inclusion. Not sure of the veracity of this narrative, but I think it points to the evolution of inclusion/political correctness/respect for others/etc. Things that were lauded as progressive a few generations ago are seen as insensitive today. As for the original question, I think the answer is that once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put him back in. *I* didn't subjugate Native Americans. My family wasn't part of that process. They came over from Poland in the late 19th century (a region, not a country at that point in time) as refugees from oppressive regimes in eastern Europe and settled in Rochester, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Milwaukee, etc., areas that were already European in nature. At this point, my family falls under the same territory as many of the disputed regions: Due to political shifts and migrations of ethnic groups, multiple peoples have what might be considered a valid claim on the land. This is true in the Balkans, in the Middle East, in Ireland, in any number of regions that have been conquered and re-conquered over the millennia of humanity. So things are f*&$ed up... how do you reconcile that? You can't go back to the way things were. In trying to correct the injustices upon one group, you would heap them on another. This fear, of losing out on what you've got due to trying to make things right with an oppressed group, is probably some of the motivation behind the white supremacy movement. There is no solution that is equitable to all, and there will be friction and conflict until some equilibrium is reached, then things will smooth out.... for a generation or so, until this repeats all over again. Edited October 9, 2017 by Doohickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 This thread is heavy but I like what I'm reading. These posts have a lot of thought and reflection. Two things we need more of lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 Sitting there complaining, not doing anything about it. That's a very telling way for you to frame it. Folks who are saying Happy Indigenous People Day are doing it to re-frame history to more reflect reality, rather than to perpetuate the whitewashed version that many of us were taught in school. Why are people who do this on the hook to explain what they're doing to really change the world? Taking issue with people doing a small, simple thing in acknowledgement of a genocide is a really troubling stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) It’s very telling. I strive for clarity. What did it tell you? Edited October 9, 2017 by Neo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 I can’t help myself ... and have nothing to say about Columbus Day ... More interesting, though, to me, is the construction. Wouldn’t subjugation, to the extent it’s land stealing and culture extinguishing, be very different from slavery as objects? I think your construct is, “we can live here and acknowledge bad things happened without having to leave.” I agree. I think LTS’ construct is, “you continue to do the bad thing, living on indigenous land our fathers took from theirs.” We cannot return freedom to deceased slaves. We can return land to the indigenous. Again, forgetting the tempest in a teapot debate around today’s holiday, I think LTS’ take was spot on. I read it as “if you’re vexed, what are you doing about it.” “You’re on a sofa, complaining, and something can be done.” True of subjugation, not slavery. Of course, the joy is in the complaining, and not the doing. And so, nothing to do, here, until another outrage can be plucked from the ether. Can we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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