Brawndo Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 It's abundantly clear the only reason he was coming here was for the money and his heart was not in Buffalo. His ego drove him to the take what he felt was the biggest challenge in winning a cup for Leafs when no one else could. Maybe he felt he could win quicker with a combination of vets such as JVR, Kessel, Bozak and the Leafs Prospects than he could with the Sabres. If anything he may have doomed the Leafs to the treadmill of mediocrity as they will be too good to finish at the bottom, but not be a dominant force in the playoffs either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 He's not our coach. He is the coach of the Leafs. F### him anyway. Love this. To SDS's point, the rub here is what he said to the Sabres. Here's a possibility: What if he and his agent were sufficiently vague and wiggly, but the Sabres naively acted as though "we got this." To Eleven's point, it may not have been unlawful or otherwise actionable to walk from a handshake deal, but it still may be bad business form, yeah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smj Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 For those of you saying this is just business – I disagree. Sports leagues are small communities. This isn't your normal job interview with company and a and there's 100 other companies with no relation to yours. If there was a verbal agreement then it isn't just business – Breaking that agreement is a crappy thing to do. My only wish for him now is to have all the success that Brian Burke had up there and to step in a steaming pile of dog ######. I agree. It's unethical to handle things a certain way. He left a lot of teams dangling. I'd be pissed if I was Detroit too. Burning bridges usually bites you in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Love this. To SDS's point, the rub here is what he said to the Sabres. Here's a possibility: What if he and his agent were sufficiently vague and wiggly, but the Sabres naively acted as though "we got this." To Eleven's point, it may not have been unlawful or otherwise actionable to walk from a handshake deal, but it still may be bad business form, yeah? Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Love this. To SDS's point, the rub here is what he said to the Sabres. Here's a possibility: What if he and his agent were sufficiently vague and wiggly, but the Sabres naively acted as though "we got this." To Eleven's point, it may not have been unlawful or otherwise actionable to walk from a handshake deal, but it still may be bad business form, yeah? Right. I'm not willing to go around talking about Babcock's integrity when it's at least 50/50 whether he behaved in a bad sense or the Sabres themselves were arrogant or read the tea leaves wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Two totally unrelated matters. If the Sabres don't take the revenue sharing the league rules say their entitled to, then they are leaving money they could use for players, staff, scouts, coaches, etc sitting on the table and it will end up in somebody else's pocket. To leave it sitting on the table makes no sense. And it isn't shafting the fans to take it. It's been an extremely long time since a coach as highly regarded as Babcock was a true FA and not a fired coach. Because his current employer still wanted him, he was absolutely going to carry a premium with him. He absolutely was going to get over $4MM/year and my expectation before the bidding began was that he'd command $5MM. If that's where he ends up, Quenneville comes in somewhere between $4-5MM when his deal is up in IIRC 2 years. Then everybody else slots in below those 2. If it's a given that he'll make ~$5MM, it might as well be the team I root for landing him. That in and of itself isn't going to blow up teams cost structures. Shooting much higher than that, and then it could distort the cost structures. It'll be interesting to see if the deal the Loafs gave him does skew the cost structure. My expectation is that whoever the Sabres end up with will not exceed $4MM/yr and likely will be in the $2.5-3.5MM/yr range. (Where very good coaches with experience will be slotted anyhow.) Unless it's Richardson (who I don't expect them to land as HC, he's outside what the Pegulas seem to look for) who would end up somewhere around $2MM. None of those amounts are effected by the Babcock saga. If the new guy gets more than that, then your view that the Babcock offer wasn't its own even will look prescient. I didn't listen to the interview, but Craig Custance said the GR morning guys asked him the same question (I'm sure they really thought of it on their own given the 3 week Babcock fest), and he thought it to be a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Hamilton with an interesting piece on what went down: http://www.wgr550.com/pages/21541825.php?contentType=4&contentId=17360833 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 No agreement is real until the paper is inked. That's just life. Maybe my career has made me cynical, but that's how I see it. In bizzaro world, you and I have been pretty lockstep on this whole process. It was a huge red flag with the reports come out Monday the Sabres were upping the package. It didn't make sense if he really wanted to return to Detroit. The cash play was on.You follow the heart or the wallet. You get both if you are lucky, but given the thousands that read these message boards from Atlanta, NC, Florida, Texas, etc.....we know that is not usually the case. Babcock was honest up front....he stressed the importance of what his wife wanted....praised having an Original 6 team as an employer...he's the Canadian national coach.....it really was a clever play. I partially am in an old school industry. The big players are all lawyered up and such, and contracts go out for the top end deals.....but it is pretty much a word and a handshake most of the time with me. I've been burned once, but when you sign a ticket in your own name and are on the hook for real cash, or send a horse 1500 miles away on pure trust, and others do the same because it's me, it's a good feeling. Like you, I've also seen every scenario in the finance world which makes me cynical as F. We should be glad he is in Toronto. 4-5 years from now we are right on cue to beat him in the 2nd round to go to the conference finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Right. I'm not willing to go around talking about Babcock's integrity when it's at least 50/50 whether he behaved in a bad sense or the Sabres themselves were arrogant or read the tea leaves wrong. Come on, folks, this isn't this Sabres administration's first time at the dance. When are we going to start giving them a little credit for having some experience and intelligence? There were a few reports from tangential sources, which is bound to happen with the Babcock situation being the center of the NHL despite the playoffs, but clearly no official leaks to the usual recipients during this period. They were playing it close to the vest for a reason. We should be glad he is in Toronto. 4-5 years from now we are right on cue to beat him in the 2nd round to go to the conference finals. I am now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yup. The more I think about it the better I feel he opted out. Its going to be real satisfying watching this team grow and beating his sorry ass behind their bench. I never did like arrogance in a person and thats how he comes off. Confidence is a trait in a person I can get behind but its a fine line and arrogance is weak if you ask me. He's officially with the leafs. I have no problems disliking him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 We should be glad he is in Toronto. 4-5 years from now we are right on cue to beat him in the 2nd round to go to the conference finals. :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejeanneret Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) In a billionaires world all is fair in love and war. Like I said last night, in the end it came down to control. With no GM in place Babcock had more leverage with Toronto than Buffalo. He now gets more say, and whoever GM Shanny brings in will have no choice but to accept those terms. Murray wasn't going to give Babs that kinda control. With all of that being said, I truly believe the Sabres will end up with the right guy. These things have a way of working themselves out. When Marrone quit we lost the only coach to lead us to a winning record since 2004. Yet it seems we did OK there. I really like Bylsma. He never finished below 2nd and always made the playoffs. The fact that the Penguins got worse after he left I feel is an indictment on the team he coached rather than his coaching skills. Richardson might be the next Babcock. He certainly has a better winning percentage than Babs did before he made it to the NHL. I think Murray will get it right. Nothing but exciting things on the horizon for the Sabres. Edited May 21, 2015 by dejeanneret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Come on, folks, this isn't this Sabres administration's first time at the dance. When are we going to start giving them a little credit for having some experience and intelligence? There were a few reports from tangential sources, which is bound to happen with the Babcock situation being the center of the NHL despite the playoffs, but clearly no official leaks to the usual recipients during this period. They were playing it close to the vest for a reason. I am now. Actually....it is..... They hired Ron Rolston, and then Pat LaFontaine who in turn hired Tim Murray and Ted Nolan. This WAS the first rodeo for all of them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'm gald murray didn't give him that kind of control , im liking Murray more and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I We should be glad he is in Toronto. 4-5 years from now we are right on cue to beat him in the 2nd round to go to the conference finals. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 We should be glad he is in Toronto. 4-5 years from now we are right on cue to beat him in the 2nd round to go to the conference finals. I thought the precise same thing yesterday afternoon. This is some value-added stuff right here. A frickin pro wrestling story line, even. Imagine the FNC in full throat as in days of old? "Baaaaabbcock ... Baaaaabcock ... YOU SUCK!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejeanneret Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Things will be just fine. We'll find the right coach, and we'll succeed with Murray's plan. Not a huge fan of Harrington, but his article in BN hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 On one of the other topics regarding coaching for this club, I stated that Babcock wasn't coming here. I was berated for it as people kept telling me "why wouldn't he come here?" etc. etc. I said that he would have more control of players in T.O. and he and Shanny have more history then he and Murray. Lo & behold, Babcock is in T.O. Now bloggers claim they are glad, he ain't that great a coach, he's all ego etc. etc. Guess what Sabres fans. You can candy coat it any way you want.. We got the 2nd best player in the draft (did Eichel make a hard commitment to the Sabres yet? He may stay for another year at Boston, that is possible also) We will now have to settle for the second best coach available. Thems the facts. I do like the young talent that has been assembled here in Buffalo so far but Murray's biggest step will be finding "the right coach" for these young guys. this will make him or break him as i am not a fan of his right now. He has not achieved a damn thing yet and the tank hasn't exactly played out the way we all kind of thought it would. Don't believe me? look back at the various topics posted and the responses. Why were we all high on Tim Murray to begin with? Just because he wasn't Darcy Regier? In my books Tim still has a lot to prove to us that he has what it takes to be a good GM. The decision of coach is enormous now. Bylsma? Really? People are crapping on Babcock for having won only 1 Cup with his lineup. Bylsma had the best player in the NHL and Malkin and won it once (off the back of Michel Therrien's hard work I might add) Terry Murray's name has come up also. Really? Didn't he coach in the late 80's early 90's? I would actually like to see Luke Richardson get the chance now but who knows who else is out there. I'm not so sure we'll see a huge improvement in this club this upcoming season but I bet you, you will see tremendous improvement in both The Leafs and The Oilers (remember them) It's great to be optimistic but this team is having trouble right now getting the pieces they thought they had coming. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy to have Jack Eichel. (provided he does indeed come to Buffalo) He looked great at the World's and fit right in with the pro's, Just see the difference the coaching will make in Toronto (which isn't a lesser talent then Buffalo regardless of what you may think- their dressing room and team concept is the main issues over there and Babs will straighten that crap out) and McLellan will do the same in Edmonton. All I'm saying is Tim, you need to make the most important decision now, choosing the right head coach for this young group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Hard returns can be your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Like I said last night, in the end it came down to control. With no GM in place Babcock had more leverage with Toronto than Buffalo. He now gets more say, and whoever GM Shanny brings in will have no choice but to accept those terms. Murray wasn't going to give Babs that kinda control. The control angle seemed to fall by the wayside yesterday with early reports about eight million dollars a year. It had to be about money, and not control. Well it turns out he's ending up with very similar money to what Buffalo was offering. It wasn't about getting more money in Toronto, but was it about getting more money in Toronto than he would have without the Buffalo offer? Schopp and the Bulldog viciously shot down anyone suggesting Murray was at fault: "The Sabres thought they had a deal with Babcock, so he must have been happy with promises of control." That's some very faulty logic. Even if Babcock agreed in principle, maybe what the Leafs offered instead of more money was more control, the exact kind of control, Babcock sought. Anyway, where's the inside story? I mean, we're going to find out exactly what happened, right? I've searched the Internet this morning. Nothing. It'll be fun. We can debate this forever, alongside the pantheon of mysterious what ifs in Sabres history. Will the Sabres leak something? Will it be accurate or merely saving-face stuff? I don't think you'll hear anything from Babcock's side. Why would he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 We have no idea if it was about control and I would be shocked if it was. I just can't see Murray going back to the Pegulas and saying, "He wanted to have more say in the roster but I just can't allow that, so I had to let him go." C'mon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 The control angle seemed to fall by the wayside yesterday with early reports about eight million dollars a year. It had to be about money, and not control. Well it turns out he's ending up with very similar money to what Buffalo was offering. It wasn't about getting more money in Toronto, but was it about getting more money in Toronto than he would have without the Buffalo offer? Schopp and the Bulldog viciously shot down anyone suggesting Murray was at fault: "The Sabres thought they had a deal with Babcock, so he must have been happy with promises of control." That's some very faulty logic. Even if Babcock agreed in principle, maybe what the Leafs offered instead of more money was more control, the exact kind of control, Babcock sought. Anyway, where's the inside story? I mean, we're going to find out exactly what happened, right? I've searched the Internet this morning. Nothing. It'll be fun. We can debate this forever, alongside the pantheon of mysterious what ifs in Sabres history. Will the Sabres leak something? Will it be accurate or merely saving-face stuff? I don't think you'll hear anything from Babcock's side. Why would he? Good stuff. I'm of two minds on this: This was a long-play by Babcock all the way to get what he wanted, where he wanted it (in TOR). Or, or, maybe if GM TM had given him ultimate veto power on player personnel, he'd have taken the Sabres job on Monday or Tuesday. If the latter, I'm okay with what and how it went down. I never wanted a HC/GM-lite. GM TM does still have much to prove, but I continue to think our best path forward is to let GM TM take his best shot at molding and shaping the contender he envisions. If in three years things are not headed in the right direction, then the team will be onto someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Agreed. Breaking an agreement in principle is virtually unheard of in pro sports so I find the comparison to other businesses a bit off. And I'm not so sure it happens all that frequently in other businesses, either. Negotiating in bad faith is frowned upon, regardless of the type of business in which that negotiating is conducted. If all the reports about Babcock's turnaround are true, it just doesn't reflect well on the man. GO SABRES!!! It seems to be getting a little more common though. Just look at Frank Gore a few months back. Wasn't there someone else in the NFL who also did the same thing? We're only going to see more of it now that we have 24 hour access to all of this stuff, or at least the perception that we have access to the whole process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Hamilton with an interesting piece on what went down: http://www.wgr550.com/pages/21541825.php?contentType=4&contentId=17360833 These sentences brought me great comfort, apart from the fact that a professional writer doesn't know how to use an apostrophe: Tim Murray and the Pegula’s weren’t just sitting around waiting for Babcock. They have other names and they have other coaches that have had preliminary interviews. Edited May 21, 2015 by Eleven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 These sentences brought me great comfort, apart from the fact that a professional writer doesn't know how to use an apostrophe: Tim Murray and the Pegula’s weren’t just sitting around waiting for Babcock. They have other names and they have other coaches that have had preliminary interviews. Hamilton's as solid a sports radio guy as there is in this market, but I don't hold him to that standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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