Trade: Myers, Stafford, Armia, Lemieux, + Low 1st for Kane, Bogosian, and Kasdorf

[Thorny]

You mean like Bogo?

Crybaby Kane has 3 points and Bogo hasn't played and you want to debate the trade? Bring it on.

Yup, Myers was -4 with 2 empty net goals but I'll be the first to admit I didn't like his game tonight. He's got to learn better D or be paired with someone else.

 

I just finished watching video of the Jets' players reaction to Kaner's comments..... you should watch them and read between the lines. Ladd, Wheeler, Maurice and Thorburn (a close friend of Kaner's while he was here) have too much class to come out and say anything outright, but you can read between the lines and see they wish Kaner would just disappear and shut his big yap. Even the TSN guys are rolling their eyes and telling him to move on. Quite immature behavior if you ask me.

Oh, and ya, we're a better team without Kane.

 

No, not like Bogo. When Bogo is in, he's good. My point was that your team would be better off with Myers out! He's a detriment, with the usage they are attempting to give him. Liger is right, it's about usage. He's in over his head. He overperformed for his first bit in Winnipeg, and created the Myers Mirage. He's back to his usual self now.

 

To the second bolded: That's just the thing. He's going on 26. He's not going to "learn better D"

 

I have no desire to reshash this trade ad nauseam, it's been done. This thread is going to reach Kassian for Hodgson levels soon. The bottom line is, it was a risk worth taking. Kane has the potential to be the best player in the trade. If he doesn't? We'll live with it.

 

It'll be much easier to live with because at the end of the day, I'm not going to be looking back and saying "what if". Odds are only 1 out of the 3 prospects/pick we dealt to the Jets pans out. It's certainly possible none have lasting impact. They are just question marks. Stafford is soon to be entering the downside of his career, and he is a signing at this point anyways. What we traded was a soon to be UFA.

 

That leaves Myers. Potentially a decent 3/4 defenseman.

 

I'm not losing sleep over Tyler Freaking Myers.

[Thwomp!]

I still think we gave up too much in the Lehner and Kane/Bogo trades, but it is what it is at this point.  It's also tough to judge until we have a good post-tank sample size of results from all 3 of them, which we definitely do not have as of yet.

[...]

This thread has morphed into any-other-player-thread-on-any-other-board-but-most-definitely-not-typically-this-board.

[Thorny]

Last I checked, that "winning" trade didn't do a thing to help the Jets avoid getting swept in the first round of the playoffs.  And, I'm pretty sure the Cup isn't awarded based on the first 8 games of the season.  But, I guess sports writers need to create stories in order to keep people interested...

 

Bingo.

[sicknfla]

No, not like Bogo. When Bogo is in, he's good. My point was that your team would be better off with Myers out! He's a detriment, with the usage they are attempting to give him. Liger is right, it's about usage. He's in over his head. He overperformed for his first bit in Winnipeg, and created the Myers Mirage. He's back to his usual self now.

 

To the second bolded: That's just the thing. He's going on 26. He's not going to "learn better D"

 

I have no desire to reshash this trade ad nauseam, it's been done. This thread is going to reach Kassian for Hodgson levels soon. The bottom line is, it was a risk worth taking. Kane has the potential to be the best player in the trade. If he doesn't? We'll live with it.

 

It'll be much easier to live with because at the end of the day, I'm not going to be looking back and saying "what if". Odds are only 1 out of the 3 prospects/pick we dealt to the Jets pans out. It's certainly possible none have lasting impact. They are just question marks. Stafford is soon to be entering the downside of his career, and he is a signing at this point anyways. What we traded was a soon to be UFA.

 

That leaves Myers. Potentially a decent 3/4 defenseman.

 

I'm not losing sleep over Tyler Freaking Myers.

I don't think anybody is going to lose sleep over Tyler Myers. That isn't the point. The point, at least from my perspective, is did Murray maximize his return for the 5 assets he sent to Winnipeg? When doing a complete rebuild and you only have limited assets to trade that will makeover your team do you do it for question marks? If Bogo continues to stay injury prone and Kane ends up being the guy that nobody on his previous team could stand WE ARE SCREWED!!

 

Same with Lehner. He has done nothing to this point in his career to warrant a first round pick. Murray did that deal on potential. Again, you are gambling limited assets. I understand drafting is gambling - but I just can't help to think a more experienced GM could have done more with what we had.

 

Eichel and Reinhart are easy. Guiding a team too last place doesn't get you GM of the year in my book. I think ROR is great. After that everything Murray has done gets dicey to me.

 

We are a better team. We are more exciting. We freaking should be! We just spent 2 years watching two of the worse teams in NHL history.

[X. Benedict]

sometimes great players are just odd. take hasek, take cookie gilchrist, take spaceman bill lee (well, not great, but worth keeping, take the cleveland indians that worshipped Jobu. 

 

I'm not worried about E. Kane as long as he never takes a shift off. From what i've ever seen, he hasn't. 

[nfreeman]

I don't think anybody is going to lose sleep over Tyler Myers. That isn't the point. The point, at least from my perspective, is did Murray maximize his return for the 5 assets he sent to Winnipeg? When doing a complete rebuild and you only have limited assets to trade that will makeover your team do you do it for question marks? If Bogo continues to stay injury prone and Kane ends up being the guy that nobody on his previous team could stand WE ARE SCREWED!!

 

Same with Lehner. He has done nothing to this point in his career to warrant a first round pick. Murray did that deal on potential. Again, you are gambling limited assets. I understand drafting is gambling - but I just can't help to think a more experienced GM could have done more with what we had.

 

Eichel and Reinhart are easy. Guiding a team too last place doesn't get you GM of the year in my book. I think ROR is great. After that everything Murray has done gets dicey to me.

 

We are a better team. We are more exciting. We freaking should be! We just spent 2 years watching two of the worse teams in NHL history.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I think you have been too quick to arrive at negative conclusions. The sample size is far too small to know what we have with Kane or Lehner. I also think you are underestimating the price for Kane in the trade auction that would have occurred, and overestimating the return in trade for the pick they gave up for Lehner.

[Doohickie]

EVANDER KANE WILL BE FINE.  ROBIN LEHNER WILL BE..... well, we'll see about Lehner.

[sicknfla]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I think you have been too quick to arrive at negative conclusions. The sample size is far too small to know what we have with Kane or Lehner. I also think you are underestimating the price for Kane in the trade auction that would have occurred, and overestimating the return in trade for the pick they gave up for Lehner.

I know it seems negative but i would rather call it cautiously optimistic. I think we paid less for more in the ROR trade. I like ROR kind of deals. You know what you are getting. No hidden variables. Being a lifelong Buffalo fan hidden variables scare the hell out of me.

EVANDER KANE WILL BE FINE. ROBIN LEHNER WILL BE..... well, we'll see about Lehner.

I hope so. The fan watches the on-ice player. We don't see the locker room player. I hope he isn't the guy that was in Winnipeg. Hopefully he matured and learned. If so, Evander Kane will be just fine.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I think you have been too quick to arrive at negative conclusions. The sample size is far too small to know what we have with Kane or Lehner. I also think you are underestimating the price for Kane in the trade auction that would have occurred, and overestimating the return in trade for the pick they gave up for Lehner.

I think the market for Kane was far less than we gave up. He was hurt, Winnipeg needed him out of that locker room, and they probably don't take it to the summer. Nothing saying Murray had to get into a bidding war even if they did.

[Doohickie]

I hope he isn't the guy that was in Winnipeg. Hopefully he matured and learned. If so, Evander Kane will be just fine.

 

Part of it was undoubtedly Kane, but remember how young he still is, and how young he was coming into the NHL.  If he got off on the wrong foot with the organization and both sides dug in (and his teammates as well), he was on the outside looking in.  Once that was the case it was irreconcilable.  GMTM brings Kane into the Sabres organization fully aware of his warts and one would hope they will handle his situation properly.  So, he very well may be the same guy, but without the strikes against him that doomed him in Atlanta/Calgary.

 

I think the market for Kane was far less than we gave up. He was hurt, Winnipeg needed him out of that locker room, and they probably don't take it to the summer. Nothing saying Murray had to get into a bidding war even if they did.

 

Without knowing the give and take that happened, it's pretty hard to know.  Maybe less was offered and WPG didn't budge.  The fact that Kane was out for the season would normally depress his value but since the Sabres season was already a throw-away (and in fact they didn't *want* to move up), it didn't have that effect on any deal worked out with the Sabres. Did GMTM pay too much?  Maybe, but if it was the deal he made or no deal, he had to make that call.

Edited October 28, 2015 by The Big Johnson

[sicknfla]

 

Part of it was undoubtedly Kane, but remember how young he still is, and how young he was coming into the NHL. If he got off on the wrong foot with the organization and both sides dug in (and his teammates as well), he was on the outside looking in. Once that was the case it was irreconcilable. GMTM brings Kane into the Sabres organization fully aware of his warts and one would hope they will handle his situation properly. So, he very well may be the same guy, but without the strikes against him that doomed him in Atlanta/Calgary.

 

 

Without knowing the give and take that happened, it's pretty hard to know. Maybe less was offered and WPG didn't budge. The fact that Kane was out for the season would normally depress his value but since the Sabres season was already a throw-away (and in fact they didn't *want* to move up), it didn't have that effect on any deal worked out with the Sabres. Did GMTM pay too much? Maybe, but if it was the deal he made or no deal, he had to make that call.

He wasn't pressed for time. He had every bargaining chip on his side. If anybody was in position to make demands it was Murray.

[Doohickie]

He had to move Staff before he ruined the tank.

 

 

 

!

[SwampD]

He had to move Staff before he ruined the tank.

 

 

 

!

You say that in jest, but he was our leading scorer when we traded him (I think).

 

And as for Kane's price, we might have had to pay a little extra to get an injured player, wait, wuh?... but it was worth it. If the plan was to tank, we had to tank and Murray got his guy, Eichel, in the end. I really don't see what the problem is.

Edited October 28, 2015 by SwampD

[Derrico]

If we're going to overreact to small sample sizes for Kane and Bogo can I do it with the pieces we moved?

 

Myers has 2 assists and is a -5 in 9 games for the Jets this season.  On a team with a 5-3-1 record and scoring more than the opposition, nobody would be happy with his +/- rating.  We all know Myers flashes of brilliance but we also know where he struggles and at this age I doubt he can correct them at this point.

Stafford has had a nice start to the year scoring 5 times and adding 2 assists in 9 games.  I still don't give much value in this piece of the trade as he was an expiring UFA and was never going to sign back here anyway.

Joel Armia is now in his FIFTH season post draft and has 1 goal and 1 assist in 6 AHL games this year and sits at a -1.  He is dangerously close to being a career AHLer at this point.  This was/is the season he has to prove he belongs and he has not shown that as of yet.  Looking like the odds are more than 50/50 that he may never.

Lemieux has 0 points and is a -6 in the 3 games he's played back in Barrie.  Best case for him IMO is he may turn into a nice third line player.  Worst case?  Well we know the history of former 2nd round picks and success in the NHL.

The 25th pick in the draft?  They don't hit that often.  Here is a historical list of the 25th overall picks.  You have to go back almost a decade to find a good one.  http://www.mynhldraft.com/nhl-draft-picks/25th-overall/250509/

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think GMTM overpaid or 'lost' the trade or whatever you want to call it looking at things today.  In two to three years we will have a much better picture.

[Doohickie]

You say that in jest, but he was our leading scorer when we traded him (I think).

 

And as for Kane's price, we might have had to pay a little extra to get an injured player, wait, wuh?... but it was worth it. If the plan was to tank, we had to tank and Murray got his guy, Eichel, in the end. I really don't see what the problem is.

 

Only partly in jest.

 

*wink*

[dudacek]

A cold-hearted analyst should look at the trade like this:

Myers for Bogosian — fair value; very similar in age, contract, ceiling, question marks and place in their careers. Deciding is basically a "which player do you like better?"

Kane for Stafford — no one in their right mind takes Stafford, even if it fixes a problem in your room. Kane is better player, younger and is under contract.

Armia, Lemieux and the pick is where the dice roll to try to make up what you lost on Kane. None are sure bets to make the league, any could turn into an effective player.

 

There is no doubt Buffalo is a better team for this deal.

I don't watch the Jets nearly as much, but it seems like they might be too.

It was a hockey trade and it seems to have been a good one.

Edited October 28, 2015 by dudacek

[LastPommerFan]

Stafford is definitely going to shoot 26% for the rest of his career. Because Buffalo.

[Doohickie]

Totally sustainable.

[SwampD]

I have to say, I get a kick out of people saying that at 26, players are done learning or figuring out the game. That is just ridiculous.

Edited October 28, 2015 by SwampD

[TrueBlueGED]

I have to say, I get a kick out of people saying that at 26, players are done learning or figuring out the game. That is just ridiculous.

 

Maybe, but not all 26s are created equal. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that a 26 year old with 7 NHL seasons is less likely to learn/improve than a 26 year old with 4 NHL seasons.

[nfreeman]

I think the market for Kane was far less than we gave up. He was hurt, Winnipeg needed him out of that locker room, and they probably don't take it to the summer. Nothing saying Murray had to get into a bidding war even if they did.

 

He wasn't pressed for time. He had every bargaining chip on his side. If anybody was in position to make demands it was Murray.

 

I don't think they needed to get him out of the room -- he was already out of the room as he'd had surgery and was done for the year.

 

I think there would've been an auction prior to the draft in June, that there would've been plenty of bidders and the price would've been in the ballpark of what the Sabres gave up. 

 

As for time pressure -- it really depends on whether you think Winnipeg was fine with waiting until after the season to auction him off.  As mentioned above, I think Winnipeg wasn't feeling any pressure to remove him, because he was already gone due to his injury and surgery.  Now, they might've preferred to move him before the deadline in order to help their playoff chances -- and this is where GMTM did have some leverage -- but I don't think Winnipeg viewed adding Stafford and swapping Bogo for Myers as a material upgrade that was urgently needed.

[Weave]

 

I think the market for Kane was far less than we gave up. He was hurt, Winnipeg needed him out of that locker room, and they probably don't take it to the summer. Nothing saying Murray had to get into a bidding war even if they did.

 

It's been out there now that 3 times GMTM tried to trade for Kane.  And we now know by Kane's words that he asked to be traded every year he was in Winnipeg.  I think it's fairly certain that Winnie's GM did his due diligence and as a result GM's other than TM have put offers on the table for Kane.  Winnie didn't budge until ours.  I think it is likely safe to say that Kane was going to cost anyone just about what we gave up to get him.

[sicknfla]

It's been out there now that 3 times GMTM tried to trade for Kane. And we now know by Kane's words that he asked to be traded every year he was in Winnipeg. I think it's fairly certain that Winnie's GM did his due diligence and as a result GM's other than TM have put offers on the table for Kane. Winnie didn't budge until ours. I think it is likely safe to say that Kane was going to cost anyone just about what we gave up to get him.

Their GM does not make trades. For him to make this trade was because the situation had to come to a head. Injured or not. Like I said up thread I would have been more comfortable trading the assets that we did for players with less baggage.

[Weave]

Their GM does not make trades. For him to make this trade was because the situation had to come to a head. Injured or not. Like I said up thread I would have been more comfortable trading the assets that we did for players with less baggage.

 

I understand your 2nd sentence, and agree in principle with the logic behind it.  But your contention is that GMTM overpaid.  And my counter is, in order to get Kane that is what you had to pay.

[Iron Crotch]

sometimes great players are just odd. take hasek, take cookie gilchrist, take spaceman bill lee (well, not great, but worth keeping, take the cleveland indians that worshipped Jobu. 

 

I'm not worried about E. Kane as long as he never takes a shift off. From what i've ever seen, he hasn't. 

 

I agree.  Everyone being best friends was never a necessary condition for winning.  I still think half of what we talk about re: "the off ice stuff" is just sports writers looking for stories.