JJFIVEOH Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 His style reflects his lesser reflexes. It's the entire point of playing full butterfly. So Enroth's reflexes are inferior, his rebound control sucks, he's too small, everybody shoots high on him, and he can't control the puck. So tell me, how is it he and Miller have almost identical save percentages over the last three years combined? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 So Enroth's reflexes are inferior, his rebound control sucks, he's too small, everybody shoots high on him, and he can't control the puck. So tell me, how is it he and Miller have almost identical save percentages over the last three years combined? We've been over this before. The sample size isn't comparable. I mean come on, Robb Stauber once had better numbers than Patrick Roy. That didn't make them equals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 We've been over this before. The sample size isn't comparable. I mean come on, Robb Stauber once had better numbers than Patrick Roy. That didn't make them equals. No, sample size will tell me if he CAN be better. It tells me what has happened during that span. He has comparable save percentages IN THE LAST THREE YEARS. Therefore, regardless of what his future may hold, Miller HAS NOT outperformed Enroth in save percentage. Save percentage is a perfect guage for goaltenders that share the same team in front of them. Using simple elementary logic, if Enorth is inferior (excuse me, has been inferior), if he is too small, if he has had poor puck control........... yet they have the same save percentage...... then OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS Miller must be sorely lacking in another department. I took a few days off from here. Apparently it wasn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 All else equal, a shorter goaltender covers less of the net at any given time. It's a natural disadvantage. I can't believe this is even a remotely controversial suggestion. Yes, I really want to make the argument that his height isn't the problem. Saying he can't do it because he's an inch or two shorter than some of the best of all-time is lazy. I don't think magically making Enroth 3 inches taller overnight would make him an NHL stud. If he's not going to make it, it'll be because of rebounds, positioning, shooters knowing his tendencies, his confidence, etc. It *won't* be because of his height. Using the best of all time to say what traits are or are not necessary for another (lesser) player to be successful is lazier. Are any of Enroth's traits even in Hasek's universe? No? Then Hasek succeeding as a smaller goaltender does nothing to disprove the notion that Enroth's size may be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm 5'11' and Hasek was taller than me each time I met him, no time were either in skates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristian Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm 5'11' and Hasek was taller than me each time I met him, no time were either in skates. Would make sense. Both nhl.com, and wikipedia has Hasek listed at 6' 1" http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8447687#&navid=nhl-search http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominik_Ha%C5%A1ek Other sites list him at either 6' 1" or 6' 0". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norcal Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Enroth was playing better late last year and early this year than he has the last few outings. Maybe he lost focus playing on a losing team and seemingly unable to buy a win this year. The Olympics probably served as a distraction as well. I dont know if he should be written off so quickly, maybe Corsi can coach him up and get him playing more like he was before his recent struggles. Between he and Miller they were top 5 in the league as a team in save % most of the year, thats not too shabby. Hasek was an absolute freak with a style all his own!! Unbelievable treat to watch him play in his prime!! Edited February 12, 2014 by Bills12Sabres11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I don't think magically making Enroth 3 inches taller overnight would make him an NHL stud. Are those inches added to the inseam or torso. :) I often think if his legs were an inch longer he'd be covering more pipe side to side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 All else equal, a shorter goaltender covers less of the net at any given time. It's a natural disadvantage. I can't believe this is even a remotely controversial suggestion. Using the best of all time to say what traits are or are not necessary for another (lesser) player to be successful is lazier. Are any of Enroth's traits even in Hasek's universe? No? Then Hasek succeeding as a smaller goaltender does nothing to disprove the notion that Enroth's size may be a problem. If none of Enroth's traits are in Hasek's universe, then *that* is why he won't succeed. The notion that his height immediately disqualifies him is completely ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 No, sample size will tell me if he CAN be better. It tells me what has happened during that span. He has comparable save percentages IN THE LAST THREE YEARS. Therefore, regardless of what his future may hold, Miller HAS NOT outperformed Enroth in save percentage. Save percentage is a perfect guage for goaltenders that share the same team in front of them. Using simple elementary logic, if Enorth is inferior (excuse me, has been inferior), if he is too small, if he has had poor puck control........... yet they have the same save percentage...... then OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS Miller must be sorely lacking in another department. I took a few days off from here. Apparently it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough. You still don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Good post. The only problem is, if Enroth becomes the #1 goaltender, the Ryan Miller Fan Club will blame every single loss on his height regardless of circumstances. Even if his has certain strengths that are better than Miller. Nope, you are the primary person who acts complete illogical to our goalie situation. Most of the enroth jokes is because of your love affair with him as spouting save percentages. There isn't a Ryan miller fan club. We like our number 1 franchise goalie more than his unproven backup. Hate to break it to you, the only fan club is the enroth fan club, population 2 or 3 Edited February 12, 2014 by Numark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 If none of Enroth's traits are in Hasek's universe, then *that* is why he won't succeed. The notion that his height immediately disqualifies him is completely ridiculous. It's both in combination, really, unless you truly believe Enroth magically being 4 inches taller would have zero impact on his ability to stop the puck. Being short means everything else about his ability and game has to be that much better to compensate. How likely is that to be the case? I think that's the reason we see plenty of average taller goaltenders, but so few average (or better) short goaltenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 From the 2013 Hockey Prospectus .....skipping all the analysis and Bayesian statistics that most will scoff at without even attempting to appreciate anyway.. Prob (Ryan Miller > Jhonas Enroth) = 63% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Rhea Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Nope, you are the primary person who acts complete illogical to our goalie situation. Most of the enroth jokes is because of your love affair with him as spouting save percentages. There isn't a Ryan miller fan club. We like our number 1 franchise goalie more than his unproven backup. Hate to break it to you, the only fan club is the enroth fan club, population 2 or 3 ignorance is bliss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 ignorance is bliss Not even making this up. When I said population 2 or 3 I thought of you haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 His reflexes are superior to Miller's. We all know that. Considering him and Miller have almost identical save percentages combined over the last three years, he must be doing something better than Miller if his size is hindering his performance in certain aspects. We do? All of us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Nothing like a thread full of subjective being spouted off as fact. He's not the starting goalie for the Sabres. He has not overtaken Miller as the starter. He's not even challenged him. Let's leave it at that. Can he be successful as a goalie? Sure, why not. There are plenty of goaltenders in the NHL who are protected by the team on the ice in front of them. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 From the 2013 Hockey Prospectus .....skipping all the analysis and Bayesian statistics that most will scoff at without even attempting to appreciate anyway.. Prob (Ryan Miller > Jhonas Enroth) = 63% BURN THE WITCH!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Nope, you are the primary person who acts complete illogical to our goalie situation. Most of the enroth jokes is because of your love affair with him as spouting save percentages. There isn't a Ryan miller fan club. We like our number 1 franchise goalie more than his unproven backup. Hate to break it to you, the only fan club is the enroth fan club, population 2 or 3 Yup. A whole lot of kicking and screaming about nothing. I'm starting to get into Robviousesque desire of Miller's situation finally resolving, because I think there is maybe a .5% chance we resign him. The sad part is, that means only 2-4 more games of Miller as a Sabre. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Where was Hasek at Enroth's age? He was a backup worth Beauregard in a trade. Noooo, actually he was in Czechoslovakia on his way to being named the best goaltender for the 5th consecutive time and the best player for the 3rd time in 4 years. Comparing Jhonas to Dom is just silly and doesn't help your case IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Noooo, actually he was in Czechoslovakia on his way to being named the best goaltender for the 5th consecutive time and the best player for the 3rd time in 4 years. Comparing Jhonas to Dom is just silly and doesn't help your case IMHO. You were comparing Enroth, at 25, to Dom. Dom at 25 was a backup and was traded for a practice goaltender. Will Enroth be Hasek? Probably not. But I was comparing apples to apples, you were comparing apples to televisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 You were comparing Enroth, at 25, to Dom. Dom at 25 was a backup and was traded for a practice goaltender. Will Enroth be Hasek? Probably not. But I was comparing apples to apples, you were comparing apples to televisions. Nooooo. At 25, Dom was in his final seaon in Czechoslovakia. Dom was CLEARLY the best goalie not in North America at the time playing in the 3rd best league in the world. When he turned 26, in his 1st season in NA, he had the best GAA in the I. He was dominating at every level he played against, including the NHL in limited callups. There is no 'probably not' in whether Jhonas can be another Hasek. He isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Nooooo. At 25, Dom was in his final seaon in Czechoslovakia. Dom was CLEARLY the best goalie not in North America at the time playing in the 3rd best league in the world. When he turned 26, in his 1st season in NA, he had the best GAA in the I. He was dominating at every level he played against, including the NHL in limited callups. There is no 'probably not' in whether Jhonas can be another Hasek. He isn't. Comparing Hasek to what Enroth has done is like comparing EJ Manuel to JIm Kelly. It's a pointless comparison because at 25 there wasn't any indicator that Hasek would turn out to be who he ended up being. If he was CLEARLY so good, then the Blackhawks must have thought pretty highly of Stephane Beauregard. :rolleyes: Edited February 12, 2014 by JJFIVEOH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 It's both in combination, really, unless you truly believe Enroth magically being 4 inches taller would have zero impact on his ability to stop the puck. Being short means everything else about his ability and game has to be that much better to compensate. How likely is that to be the case? I think that's the reason we see plenty of average taller goaltenders, but so few average (or better) short goaltenders. I'd make everyone on the Sabres 4 inches taller if I could, but I don't think it's going to have a significant effect on Enroth's play. Plenty of tall goalies get drafted and amount to absolutely nothing. Of all the positions in hockey, goalie is probably the one where I'd put the least emphasis on size. Vision, reflexes, rebounds, positioning, poise -- we're only fixated on height because it's the easiest thing to point to. Tim Thomas is also 5'11". He's had a pretty solid career. Nooooo. At 25, Dom was in his final seaon in Czechoslovakia. Dom was CLEARLY the best goalie not in North America at the time playing in the 3rd best league in the world. When he turned 26, in his 1st season in NA, he had the best GAA in the I. He was dominating at every level he played against, including the NHL in limited callups. There is no 'probably not' in whether Jhonas can be another Hasek. He isn't. Good Lord. The argument is not "Enroth is another Hasek." The argument is that if he's good, his height won't hold him back because he's not much different in height than one of the best of all-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Euro bias and skepticism about Hasek's style caused the NHL establishment to doubt him. His results on the ice never did. Edited February 13, 2014 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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