KO knew very early we didn’t have it - something was missing

[Taro T]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

Yes, I get that you think the Sabres didn't need to reset in in March of 2021 because:

• The 25th-place 81-point (prorated from 69 games) 2020 team was pretty good and trending upward.
• The Sabres 31st-place 54-point (prorated from 56 games) 2021 team was a mirage because Jack Eichel was hurt and COVID

I get that you think that team had enough pieces that it could have become a playoff team relatively quickly with the right tweaks. And that you think Adams has pushed that possibility back when he did not have to.

The point I was trying to make was simply that it is not typical for a really bad team to turn into playoff regular in 2 or 3 years. I didn't even mention Adams, let alone the hyperbole-filled bold. That's all you.

If you want to discuss whether the reset itself was prudent, sure. When I check my 'real world context' from March of 2021 I see:

• a franchise player whose health will probably make him unavailable for the coming season
• an owner who is unwilling to give that player the surgery he wants
• a roster and a failing season unlikely to keep Eichel happy, or deter him from a trade request, no matter what new offseason promises I make
• my best healthy player, Sam Reinhart, saying he would not be signing a long-term contract with us
• my $9M winger coming off miserable 14- and 7-goal seasons
• my $6M big free agent acquisition unlikely to stay, or bring back a big haul in a trade
• half my defence corps — Montour, Ristolainen and McCabe — headed toward free agency and not wanting to talk contract
• uncertainty as to whether or not I can re-sign my starting goalie
• an owner who may or may not back off on the austerity program he launched during COVID
• a dressing room that had grown 'toxic' due mostly to the wear of years of constant losing
• a reputation among players and agents as a place to avoid

These are issues I can't ignore. Even if I do accept handwaving the 2021 disaster as just the product of an unhealthy Jack and the bubble, I don't think an 81-point team can withstand all that, let alone a 54-point team. And I don't handwave 2021. Every team was in a bubble. Every team has injuries — you've said it yourself several times. And whether you accept it as representative or not, the Sabres literally did morph into a .330 team.

My take in that moment is that I don't see this mix becoming a playoff team relatively quickly with the right tweaks

Regardless of how we got there, or what we've done since — I guess I need to stress this is not about Adams' overall performance as a GM — I think a reset at that time was absolutely the right move. I respect your take, I just see it differently.

One thing getting neglected in your discussion w/ @Thorny (& btw, absolutely love it when you 2 are in a debate - it's always great stuff) is that the '21 Sabres wouldn't have been nearly as bad had they NOT considered an injured eyed Hutton to not just be a quality NHLer but a quality NHL STARTER.  The quality of the skaters was FAR above the quality of the goaltending (especially when Ullmark being out injured is factored into it).  Give that team a legit coaching staff (something we have not seen in Buffalo through Adams 1st 5 seasons) and a legit NHLer to go with Ullmark and it wouldn't have been the disaster that went 18 games without a W.

Though their record was similar, they were NOT the '22 Blackhawks.  And if that '21 team had been able to be kept together, they weren't that far away.  Get a goalie to pair with Ullmark and Danault in FA and a couple more pieces and even though that '21-'22 team probably wouldn't have made the playoffs with losing Eichel for 1/2 a season; they SHOULD'VE been able to get in that next season.  Goaltending, Eichel and Reinhart entering their primes, Dahlin and Montour along with most of the rest of the support pieces that team would've had would've been pretty good on paper.  (They don't play on paper, obviously, but the talent on that team that got blown up was in reality a lot closer to the 81 point paced squad we saw the prior year than the 0.350 one we saw in '21.  MHO.  Clearly, ymmv.)

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

One thing getting neglected in your discussion w/ @Thorny (& btw, absolutely love it when you 2 are in a debate - it's always great stuff) is that the '21 Sabres wouldn't have been nearly as bad had they NOT considered an injured eyed Hutton to not just be a quality NHLer but a quality NHL STARTER.  The quality of the skaters was FAR above the quality of the goaltending (especially when Ullmark being out injured is factored into it).  Give that team a legit coaching staff (something we have not seen in Buffalo through Adams 1st 5 seasons) and a legit NHLer to go with Ullmark and it wouldn't have been the disaster that went 18 games without a W.

Though their record was similar, they were NOT the '22 Blackhawks.  And if that '21 team had been able to be kept together, they weren't that far away.  Get a goalie to pair with Ullmark and Danault in FA and a couple more pieces and even though that '21-'22 team probably wouldn't have made the playoffs with losing Eichel for 1/2 a season; they SHOULD'VE been able to get in that next season.  Goaltending, Eichel and Reinhart entering their primes, Dahlin and Montour along with most of the rest of the support pieces that team would've had would've been pretty good on paper.  (They don't play on paper, obviously, but the talent on that team that got blown up was in reality a lot closer to the 81 point paced squad we saw the prior year than the 0.350 one we saw in '21.  MHO.  Clearly, ymmv.)

If the Sabres get the same level of netminding from UPL next season with some tweaks to the current roster, do you consider this team a playoff team? 

[Taro T]

59 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If the Sabres get the same level of netminding from UPL next season with some tweaks to the current roster, do you consider this team a playoff team? 

Probably.

[Scottysabres]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Probably.

Probably true. Only, I don't want just the playoffs, I want a cup. 

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Probably true. Only, I don't want just the playoffs, I want a cup. 

IF Adams is right about how talented the young team he's assembled will be when they're hitting their primes, there's a reasonable chance you'll see one.

If the coaches Adams has hired and the 2-4 vets he brings in this off-season aren't good enough to help that young team he's assembled get into the playoffs this season, we may never find out whether he was right or not as the direction will change once again.

It's cool to want a SC for the Sabres.  Pretty sure we all want to see that.  But this team is going to need some serious luck to have that be the result of the '24-'25 season.  And if nothing short of competing for a SC is enough, this upcoming season will almost certainly be a disappointment for you.

[Scottysabres]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IF Adams is right about how talented the young team he's assembled will be when they're hitting their primes, there's a reasonable chance you'll see one.

If the coaches Adams has hired and the 2-4 vets he brings in this off-season aren't good enough to help that young team he's assembled get into the playoffs this season, we may never find out whether he was right or not as the direction will change once again.

It's cool to want a SC for the Sabres.  Pretty sure we all want to see that.  But this team is going to need some serious luck to have that be the result of the '24-'25 season.  And if nothing short of competing for a SC is enough, this upcoming season will almost certainly be a disappointment for you.

I know, but one can dream.

[SwampD]

Just, ugh.

Is this really what we’ve been reduced to?

The discussion is excellent, but this thread is pain.

Really high quality pain.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, SwampD said:

Just, ugh.

Is this really what we’ve been reduced to?

The discussion is excellent, but this thread is pain.

Really high quality pain.

Yes.  This is what we are as a franchise.  Hope to make the playoffs as a mediocre wildcard team.  It is a realistic next step. 
 

I am in North Carolina on vacation.  All I hear is how great the Canes fan base is.  Sell out every game.  Buffalo is a joke here.  Not a threat at all.  They laughed at the Brind'Amour to Buffalo comments. 

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, SwampD said:

Just, ugh.

Is this really what we’ve been reduced to?

The discussion is excellent, but this thread is pain.

Really high quality pain.

If you expect a radical makeover of this team, you are going to be deeply disappointed. The GM has been fairly candid about what he intends to do this offseason. Dramatic action is not on his agenda. If there is, I will be surprised. It's very likely that the GM is going to take some actions to alter the roster. I'm sure you will be disappointed at what he ends up doing. We shall see. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Yes.  This is what we are as a franchise.  Hope to make the playoffs as a mediocre wildcard team.  It is a realistic next step. 
 

I am in North Carolina on vacation.  All I hear is how great the Canes fan base is.  Sell out every game.  Buffalo is a joke here.  Not a threat at all.  They laughed at the Brind'Amour to Buffalo comments. 

Buffalo has become an inconsequential and irrelevant franchise. That's what happens when your franchise falters for nearly a generation. The pro lacrosse team is more of a sports factor in the community than its pro hockey team. That's sad and pathetic. 

[LTS]

22 hours ago, Malazan said:

On the bench where he spends most of the game compared to Buffalo where he played an average of 18 minutes. If you didn't know the bench is where players sit while not on the ice.. that's not on me.

You clearly weren't aware that he gave away the puck to Boston while he was on the ice.. He had next to nothing to do with the goal besides screwing up and be bailed by an amazing play from Barkov. It seems like you still haven't actually watched it.

As one trying to point out my inattentiveness to details... clearly you've not looked at stats: https://www.nhl.com/panthers/player/kyle-okposo-8473449

Clearly pointless talking to you.  Have a nice day.

[Doohickie]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:47 PM, Scottysabres said:

Probably true. Only, I don't want just the playoffs, I want a cup. 

Baby steps, grasshopper.  Playoffs this coming year.  Cup next.  😄

23 hours ago, JohnC said:

Buffalo has become an inconsequential and irrelevant franchise. That's what happens when your franchise falters for nearly a generation. The pro lacrosse team is more of a sports factor in the community than its pro hockey team. That's sad and pathetic. 

A friend here in Fort Worth posted a video of the Bandits win on FB.  The crowd was loud and enthusiastic.  I pointed out that you don't see crowds like in Fort Worth at an NLL game.  Buffalo drew six times more fans than Fort Worth this season (Fort Worth population is just about a million people without suburbs and without the rest of the DFW area). 

I also commented that in all fairness, most of those Buffalo fans would rather be at a Sabres playoff game.

[JohnC]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Baby steps, grasshopper.  Playoffs this coming year.  Cup next.  😄

A friend here in Fort Worth posted a video of the Bandits win on FB.  The crowd was loud and enthusiastic.  I pointed out that you don't see crowds like in Fort Worth at an NLL game.  Buffalo drew six times more fans than Fort Worth this season (Fort Worth population is just about a million people without suburbs and without the rest of the DFW area). 

I also commented that in all fairness, most of those Buffalo fans would rather be at a Sabres playoff game.

A couple of weeks ago the Bandits played Toronto at home in an elimination game. The arena was fill with a frenzied crowd. The game was exciting. Just by watching the game on TV my juices were in a state of agitation. (And I'm not even knowledgeable about the sport.) You make a great observation that there was a time when hockey was the primary sport at this time of year for the hometown fan base. That level of interest is in the distant past. As a hockey fan I feel cheated. There is no excuse for this fan base to have been steadily eroded because of a generation of incompetent management. 

I haven't given up on this franchise. However, it is way past due for the organization to demonstrate a commitment to seriously compete. The GM and owner need to show some urgency this offseason to get better. I really don't think that this team is far off. But what I do know is that a status quo and casual approach is not going to get things turned around. The eroded fan base deserves better. 

[Mango]

Meh. 

For me KO's legacy in Buffalo will be remembered as the dude who got all ornery with fans because they boo'ed at their low effort play. 

For a guy who was brought in to "lead" the locker room all he seemed to lead was snarkiness to the fanbase and bad efforts. 

I don't hate the guy, but I no longer really care about his opinion and I don't see any reason to every bring him back into the fold in a FO or coaching role. 

[Rasmus_]

90% of Okposo's career in Buffalo was struggling to get back to normalcy.  At least in the sense of being relatively in the playoff hunt.  Is it a crap way for your former captain to leave the team he played a large portion of his career, yes.  However, like LGR4GM stated this is an issue with management.  Okposo was a warrior and for the large majority was a model citizen in and out of the team.  I don't fault him for asking for a trade.  I do leave some blame in the December incident where they went on a stingy stance of not saluting fans.  

[OrangeSeatVertigo]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:00 AM, triumph_communes said:

Dad energy leader and development to a fault coach. No surprise. Spilled milk, we got Ruff and he has bark 

Plus they now have two solid goaltenders and a solid top 4 defense.   they didn't have any of that for the first half of the season. 

 Its all timing.   Ruff will look like a savior, but actually both goaltenders and several forwards grew up on Granato's watch plus Byrum was added; and Lindy will get the credit.  Silly really and Granato will be forgotten.  

Whatever..  Granato is paid handsomely so no one is suffering.  

[triumph_communes]

41 minutes ago, OrangeSeatVertigo said:

Plus they now have two solid goaltenders and a solid top 4 defense.   they didn't have any of that for the first half of the season. 

 Its all timing.   Ruff will look like a savior, but actually both goaltenders and several forwards grew up on Granato's watch plus Byrum was added; and Lindy will get the credit.  Silly really and Granato will be forgotten.  

Whatever..  Granato is paid handsomely so no one is suffering.  

Granato had half a season of that and they regressed. He peaked 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, OrangeSeatVertigo said:

Plus they now have two solid goaltenders and a solid top 4 defense.   they didn't have any of that for the first half of the season. 

 Its all timing.   Ruff will look like a savior, but actually both goaltenders and several forwards grew up on Granato's watch plus Byrum was added; and Lindy will get the credit.  Silly really and Granato will be forgotten.  

Whatever..  Granato is paid handsomely so no one is suffering.  

And 70% of the team will be Botterill guys. Goes both ways 

[sabresparaavida]

4 hours ago, OrangeSeatVertigo said:

Plus they now have two solid goaltenders and a solid top 4 defense.   they didn't have any of that for the first half of the season. 

 Its all timing.   Ruff will look like a savior, but actually both goaltenders and several forwards grew up on Granato's watch plus Byrum was added; and Lindy will get the credit.  Silly really and Granato will be forgotten.  

Whatever..  Granato is paid handsomely so no one is suffering.  

Several forwards and UPL grew up under Granato’s watch, but was that due to Granato, or was it just them growing up? 

[ska-T Chitown]

Rando thought - and apologies if someone has already said it somewhere else ... is it at all possible that the players were also talking about internal locker room leadership when they talked about someone pushing them harder? KO was gone - maybe they were saying "gee, he sure was a swell guy, but what we really needed was a real arse-kicker to flip tables during intermissions if we were not crushing the opponent"? I dunno, just some musings.

[Night Train]

39 minutes ago, ska-T Chitown said:

Rando thought - and apologies if someone has already said it somewhere else ... is it at all possible that the players were also talking about internal locker room leadership when they talked about someone pushing them harder? KO was gone - maybe they were saying "gee, he sure was a swell guy, but what we really needed was a real arse-kicker to flip tables during intermissions if we were not crushing the opponent"? I dunno, just some musings.

Fair point. It now starts with Lindy and Adams ability to acquire some talent with an edge. Coach and players. 

[That Aud Smell]

20 hours ago, ska-T Chitown said:

Rando thought - and apologies if someone has already said it somewhere else ... is it at all possible that the players were also talking about internal locker room leadership when they talked about someone pushing them harder? KO was gone - maybe they were saying "gee, he sure was a swell guy, but what we really needed was a real arse-kicker to flip tables during intermissions if we were not crushing the opponent"? I dunno, just some musings.

19 hours ago, Night Train said:

Fair point. It now starts with Lindy and Adams ability to acquire some talent with an edge. Coach and players. 

It's a well-taken point. You hear this a lot (because it's true, I think): "Teams take on the personality of their head coach."

As captain and a veteran leader, KO was an appropriate extension of Granato's personality. And the team did take on Granato's personality (as well as reflect his underdeveloped understanding of high-level strategy in the NHL (remember the comment about how playing against Granato's Sabres was often like playing a high school team?)).

Let's see what happens when this team takes on Ruff's personality.

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

It's a well-taken point. You hear this a lot (because it's true, I think): "Teams take on the personality of their head coach."

As captain and a veteran leader, KO was an appropriate extension of Granato's personality. And the team did take on Granato's personality (as well as reflect his underdeveloped understanding of high-level strategy in the NHL (remember the comment about how playing against Granato's Sabres was often like playing a high school team?)).

Let's see what happens when this team takes on Ruff's personality.

Also, let's see what happens when the captain of the team hates to lose not just wants to win.  Really expect one of Dahlin or Tuch to wear the C with Cozens taking the other A.  Maybe Ruff goes off the board and gives the C to Cozens and lets the other 2 get the A's.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

It's a well-taken point. You hear this a lot (because it's true, I think): "Teams take on the personality of their head coach."

As captain and a veteran leader, KO was an appropriate extension of Granato's personality. And the team did take on Granato's personality (as well as reflect his underdeveloped understanding of high-level strategy in the NHL (remember the comment about how playing against Granato's Sabres was often like playing a high school team?)).

Let's see what happens when this team takes on Ruff's personality.

It seemed that every time I watched the Sabres on National TV the same critical commentary was stated during the game or intermissions. The point was repeatedly made that the Sabres weren't a bad team or a team that lacked talent. The major flaw cited was that this team's construction was too imbalanced. It's very likely that Ruff is going to bring a greater level of structure compared to the way this team played under Granato. But unless a few additional players are added to toughen up the mixture, this team will continue to lag. (Although there are some vocal advocates here who do insist on a major roster overhaul.) What is likely to happen is that the pieces are already on the roster to put together the top two lines. The challenge is to properly build the lower lines. And that requires additions from the outside. 

[Kristian]

Any team with Kyle Okposo playing a regular shift, doesn’t have “it”, whatever that means.

The guy was an overpaid bum from day 1.