Does the NHL need to change the rules for expansion teams to make it harder for them?

[Doohickie]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And you won't get the attendance you're hoping for by building in the boonies.

But really, isn't that exactly what the Buffalo Bills did in Orchard Park?  NY Giants & Jets in the Meadowlands?  The Cowboys in Arlington?  Is there something fundamentally different about the NFL compared to the NHL that favors suburban stadiums?  I thought for a moment of number of games played (every NFL game is "an event") but the Texas Rangers baseball team has a stadium in Arlington next to the Cowboys stadium, and they play twice as many games as an NHL team.

[DarthEbriate]

26 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But really, isn't that exactly what the Buffalo Bills did in Orchard Park?  NY Giants & Jets in the Meadowlands?  The Cowboys in Arlington?  Is there something fundamentally different about the NFL compared to the NHL that favors suburban stadiums?  I thought for a moment of number of games played (every NFL game is "an event") but the Texas Rangers baseball team has a stadium in Arlington next to the Cowboys stadium, and they play twice as many games as an NHL team.

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of suburbia as where in suburbia/boonies. It's a matter of access for the entire metro region. Arlington is smack between Dallas and Fort Worth. For Orchard Park's comparison it'd be as is <looks at map> ... Springville... was another city with 250,000 people. NE New Jersey has another 2-4M people within a short distance of the Meadowlands coming from the opposite direction of NYC. If it's centrally located and you've got population centers of 6M and 20M, suburbia isn't really an issue.

If you're winning (and the tickets aren't music concert cost), then the more casual fans will show up. If you lose for 10 years, you won't have nearly as many kids asking to go to a game. You won't be able to rally a few friends to make a weeknight of it to go watch your team get caved.

[spndnchz]

6 hours ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

The expansion teams didn't hire Ron Rolston.

The expansion teams didn't hire Ted Nolan.

The expansion teams didn't hire Dan Bylsma.

The expansion teams didn't hire Ralph Krueger.

The expansion teams didn't hire Tim Murray.

The expansion teams didn't hire Jason Botterill.

The expansion teams didn't sign Taylor Hall.

The expansion teams didn't sign Marcus Johansson.

The expansion teams didn't sign Matt Moulson.

The expansion teams didn't draft Joel Armia.

The expansion teams didn't draft Mikhail Grigorenko

The expansion teams didn't draft Alexander Nylander

You forgot someone

[Doohickie]

5 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

You forgot someone

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

But really, isn't that exactly what the Buffalo Bills did in Orchard Park?  NY Giants & Jets in the Meadowlands?  The Cowboys in Arlington?  Is there something fundamentally different about the NFL compared to the NHL that favors suburban stadiums?  I thought for a moment of number of games played (every NFL game is "an event") but the Texas Rangers baseball team has a stadium in Arlington next to the Cowboys stadium, and they play twice as many games as an NHL team.

Orchard Park is 10 minutes from downtown.

Sunrise FLA is 15 minutes from Lauderdale and appears to be a good 40+ minute drive from Miami.  And there LITERALLY is nothing once you go to the other side of the rink for dozens of miles.  That rink couldn't have been built more remotely from the population center if they were trying.

Never been to AZ but have been told that Glendale is a suburb pretty far from downtown Phoenix with a lot of the population on the other side of Phoenix (Glendale is on the opposite side of the city from Mesa and Scottsdale).

Neither's situation is anywhere close to the ones you mentioned.

Yes, the Meadowlands seems to be about 30 minutes from NYC but it looks to be less than 10 miles from NYC on the map and there are 11MM people in NYC/on LI plus you have all of NJ and eastern PA to draw from as well.

And Arlington is a suburb of 2 fairly large cities - both Dallas and Fort Worth.  It's not like the old Texas Stadium ended up in Plano or Ennis which to Dallas (and especially Fort Worth) is more akin to what Sunrise is to Miami.

Would say it would be a closer analogy to placing the Corel Centre in Kanata but even that was at least in a traditional market.

[Brawndo]

8 hours ago, shrader said:

With everything the league has done over the years to keep that team there, it just seems odd that they would suddenly hold a gun to the head of a guy who tried to work with them.

It’s not suddenly holding a gun to the head of Alex Meruelo. He has had plenty of time to get a plan in place for a new arena. 

This is the same owner who did not pay rent or taxes to the City Of Glendale, which lead to the the City deciding not to renew the Coyotes Lease as the City stating  its decision was due to “increased focus on larger, more impactful events and uses of the city-owner arena.”

 

Per the Desert Diamond Arena Calendar there were 23 events between October and April, with one event the entire month of January and two in February. 

It does not look good when an arena owner willingly gives up 41 nights of arena use, as the tenant has been difficult to deal with. 

There is also pressure from the other owners and intense pressure from the NHLPA to resolve this. The Coyotes Players filed multiple grievances with the NHLPA about violations of the CBA.  Meruelo and the Coyotes acted as if winning the Tempe Vote was a forgone conclusion. NHLPA President Marty Walsh, who knows a thing or two about local elections, met with Coyotes Leadership, looked at the Yotes Campaign and immediately realized it was doomed to fail. 
 

They have had multiple chances to get the franchise on stable footing and stumbled each time, if they don’t settle things soon the NHL will be forces move in a different direction. He should get his original purchase price back at least.

8 hours ago, Taro T said:

And, though it could just be speaking the party line, Bettman makes it sound like there are still options to keep the team in the desert by landing them in Phoenix proper.  Which is where the team should've been all along.  You aren't going to get people in an "emerging" market to drive from the suburbs on 1 side of a sprawling city to watch a game being played in the suburbs on the other side of the city.  (Well, not many of them at any rate.)

And the attendance issues Florida has seemed to have through the years and that the Yotes have had should be a cautionary tale to realize there's a reason land is cheap far from the population centers.  And you won't get the attendance you're hoping for by building in the boonies.

This of course the NHL’s Ultimate Dream, which is why the current ownership group has gotten more time 
 

The one of the original owners of Coyotes sold his share to Ellsman when Ellsman insisted on the new arena being built in Glendale, Moyes wanted to build it on the Eastern Side of Phoenix where most of the population is. 
 

Ironically, Friedman and Marek were talking about expansion cities this afternoon Atlanta of course was mentioned as was a possible return to Phoenix with an ownership group with a stable arena plan. Friedman mentioned that the thought is the market is too big for the league not to be there. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I live and work in NW Atlanta.  The Braves stadium is literally across the street from my office building. The Braves built a huge live work entertainment complex around the stadium which has been a huge success.  The Braves sellout most games and the plan was so good traffic isn’t much of an issue, which is a major accomplishment in Atlanta.

The Braves are the new model for large metro areas. Teams must consider where their fan base lives when building new facilities.   Having an entertainment district around the stadium is a huge added bonus and makes the event even more fun.

When Atlanta gets their expansion team, their new stadium will be on the North side as well, because that’s where the hockey fans are. 
 

My parents retired to Scottsdale and I’ve spent a great deal of time in the Phoenix area.  As to the Yotes, Tempe makes the most sense for a new hockey/entertainment complex, but unlike Atlanta, downtown Phx is still accessible. I’m actually a little surprised that the Pima tribe hasn’t worked with the NHL to build an area and entertainment complex with their Casinos near Scottsdale off the 101.

[Thwomp!]

The expansion rules are fine. The Sabres have had 50+ years to win a championship, and haven't really been trying for most of the last decade, so of course teams are going to win before we do.  The problem is internal, not external, but I know the kool aid is flowing free around here.

[French Collection]

20 minutes ago, Thwomp! said:

The expansion rules are fine. The Sabres have had 50+ years to win a championship, and haven't really been trying for most of the last decade, so of course teams are going to win before we do.  The problem is internal, not external, but I know the kool aid is flowing free around here.

I just had a quick look at the Sabres’ expansion twin’s record.

Even with 12 brutal seasons, the Sabres have a better overall won/lost record than the Canucks. 1879 wins vs 1727.

The Sabres have made the playoffs in 29 seasons vs 28 for the Canucks.

They have us on Cup Final appearances 3-2. ‘82, ‘94, ‘11.

I feel some empathy for them. I have always been indifferent about them in the past.

The Sabres should contend again before they do.

[Brawndo]

This was mentioned on 32 Thoughts, it would need to be another family member owning the team, but San Diego was as an expansion location. 
 

They were lukewarm on Houston, as the Rockets Owner did not seem overly interested.

Of course Atlanta was a front runner 

[Marvin]

19 minutes ago, Thwomp! said:

The expansion rules are fine. The Sabres have had 50+ years to win a championship, and haven't really been trying for most of the last decade, so of course teams are going to win before we do.  The problem is internal, not external, but I know the kool aid is flowing free around here.

But we tanked and got McEichel.  Are you telling me that this does not count?  Please say it ain't so!

[MattPie]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:54 AM, Doohickie said:

But really, isn't that exactly what the Buffalo Bills did in Orchard Park?  NY Giants & Jets in the Meadowlands?  The Cowboys in Arlington?  Is there something fundamentally different about the NFL compared to the NHL that favors suburban stadiums?  I thought for a moment of number of games played (every NFL game is "an event") but the Texas Rangers baseball team has a stadium in Arlington next to the Cowboys stadium, and they play twice as many games as an NHL team.

Established teams can pull that off. Plus, Buffalo is constrained by the lake and border. Putting it in OP is probably easier as far more people live in suburbs east of Buffalo than downtown. Now, if you wanted to argue that the Bills should be in Lancaster, Amherst, or Cheektowoga, I'd fully agree. It's central to the local population and easier for Rochestarians to reach.

On 6/13/2023 at 2:25 PM, Taro T said:

Yes, the Meadowlands seems to be about 30 minutes from NYC but it looks to be less than 10 miles from NYC on the map and there are 11MM people in NYC/on LI plus you have all of NJ and eastern PA to draw from as well.

And Arlington is a suburb of 2 fairly large cities - both Dallas and Fort Worth.  It's not like the old Texas Stadium ended up in Plano or Ennis which to Dallas (and especially Fort Worth) is more akin to what Sunrise is to Miami.

Would say it would be a closer analogy to placing the Corel Centre in Kanata but even that was at least in a traditional market.

The Meadowlands is right on the NJ Turnpike and there's a NJ Transit (train) stop on the edge of the parking lots. It's relatively easy for anyone in NYC to get there (subway to Penn Station, NJT to the Meadowlands (2 stops or something like that). The entire state on NJ seems to be oriented to the turnpike corridor, so there are plenty of trains running between Trenton and the Meadowlands. The primary people who lose out on that deal are the Long Island people, they have to do LI rail road and then NJT, but even that's not the end of the world.

If anything, Batavia is a good parallel, but with Buffalo and Rochester are nowhere as big as the other cities we're talking about so it's not 100% dense suburb the whole way between them.

[Porous Five Hole]

On 6/15/2023 at 12:05 PM, Brawndo said:

This was mentioned on 32 Thoughts, it would need to be another family member owning the team, but San Diego was as an expansion location. 
 

They were lukewarm on Houston, as the Rockets Owner did not seem overly interested.

Of course Atlanta was a front runner 

I have doubts that the arena would be ready by the start of the 2025 season. While it sounds far off, it’s only 16 months from today.
 

 The question is would a guy like Kroenke really build an arena to just hope a team would show up? It’s probably a good bet (eighth largest US city and no NFL competition).  

This guy owns an NHL & NBA team already. My guess is there is some level of assurance of a relocation or expansion.  

[Captain Caveman]

On 6/11/2023 at 4:21 PM, matter2003 said:

It's hard to really accept 3 conference finals in 6 years due to rules greatly favoring them when we've been in existence 63 years and have the same number of Stanley Cup Finals appearances and likely 1 less Stanley Cup 

Yeah, it is hard, but it's not their fault we've been terrible.  If anything we got lucky that it wasn't worse - imagine if the Kraken had drafted Skinner and he'd put up numbers like this past year.

[Brawndo]

A recurring theme that has been mentioned on 32 Thoughts by Jeff Marek is the NHL is the only major sports league in North America that has less than 30 franchises in the United States and they would possibly want to close this gap. 

[Hank]

11 hours ago, Brawndo said:

A recurring theme that has been mentioned on 32 Thoughts by Jeff Marek is the NHL is the only major sports league in North America that has less than 30 franchises in the United States and they would possibly want to close this gap. 

I'd like the NHL to have a bigger footprint in the US, I think long term it would be good for the league. I've read Salt Lake might be frontrunner for the next wave of expansion, but I think a non-NBA market like Kansas City might make more sense. 

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I'd like the NHL to have a bigger footprint in the US, I think long term it would be good for the league. I've read Salt Lake might be frontrunner for the next wave of expansion, but I think a non-NBA market like Kansas City might make more sense. 

They interviewed Ryan Smith, the owner of the Utah Jazz and Salt Lake City FC on 32 Thoughts, he has met with Bettman on a few occasions and will probably the own the SLC Franchise 

Whether that be expansion or relocation 

[Kristian]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:21 PM, matter2003 said:

It's hard to really accept 3 conference finals in 6 years due to rules greatly favoring them when we've been in existence 63 years and have the same number of Stanley Cup Finals appearances and likely 1 less Stanley Cup 

It’s neither Vegas or Seattles fault that we have an owner who hires soccer managers to coach pro hockey teams.

[Doohickie]

On 6/17/2023 at 10:16 AM, Porous Five Hole said:

I have doubts that the arena would be ready by the start of the 2025 season. While it sounds far off, it’s only 16 months from today.
 

 The question is would a guy like Kroenke really build an arena to just hope a team would show up? It’s probably a good bet (eighth largest US city and no NFL competition).  

This guy owns an NHL & NBA team already. My guess is there is some level of assurance of a relocation or expansion.  

Only 16,000 seats though?  An arena that size doesn't need NHL or NBA to be profitable.

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Only 16,000 seats though?  An arena that size doesn't need NHL or NBA to be profitable.

Well, the Gulls are averaging 7k and no one spends a billion dollars for minor league sports. 

[ddaryl]

14 hours ago, Kristian said:

It’s neither Vegas or Seattles fault that we have an owner who hires soccer managers to coach pro hockey teams.

1st how did you feel about the Adams / Granato when that was announced.... All you could do is sit back and hope its wasn't more of the same.

Ralph may have been hired as a manager in Europe for soccer clubs, but the fact is Ralph did have pedigree in the NHL and International hockey and many did feel he was given a raw deal in the NHL. 

It was a shot in the dark but don't forget to throw the GM under the bus for this hire as well, it wasn't all Pegula's. In fact Pegulas went through a similiar thing witht he Bills until they found the right GM/HC combo

 

Quote

Krueger only has 48 games of NHL head-coaching experience, but Buffalo general manager Jason Botterill said the team's brass put a lot of stock into international experience. Krueger coached Switzerland's national team to Olympic appearances in 2002, 2006 and 2010, took Team Europe on a surprising run at the 2016 World Cup of Hockey, was part of several world championships and served as a consultant under Mike Babcock when Canada won Olympic gold in 2014.

 

[Crusader1969]

On 6/15/2023 at 11:38 AM, Thwomp! said:

The expansion rules are fine. The Sabres have had 50+ years to win a championship, and haven't really been trying for most of the last decade, so of course teams are going to win before we do.  The problem is internal, not external, but I know the kool aid is flowing free around here.

Probably mentioned upthread but the Sabres made the finals in their 5th year or so.

[Kristian]

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

1st how did you feel about the Adams / Granato when that was announced.... All you could do is sit back and hope its wasn't more of the same.

Ralph may have been hired as a manager in Europe for soccer clubs, but the fact is Ralph did have pedigree in the NHL and International hockey and many did feel he was given a raw deal in the NHL. 

It was a shot in the dark but don't forget to throw the GM under the bus for this hire as well, it wasn't all Pegula's. In fact Pegulas went through a similiar thing witht he Bills until they found the right GM/HC combo

 

 

Of course JBot deserves his share of the blame, but seeing as JBot was hired by the owners, I’ll put most of the blame there.

The fact that Krueger has had a sniff of success in tournament hockey shouldn’t, by any standards, make him so much as interview for an NHL head coaching gig. Terrible hire by JBot, and terrible move by Pegula to sanction it.

I know, I know…. Owners shouldn’t meddle, but this one was atrocious.

[MattPie]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Probably mentioned upthread but the Sabres made the finals in their 5th year or so.

And the dreaded Flyers won cups in year 7 and 8 of their existence. Vegas is not an really an outlier, other than their success the first year or two.

[ddaryl]

16 hours ago, Kristian said:

Of course JBot deserves his share of the blame, but seeing as JBot was hired by the owners, I’ll put most of the blame there.

The fact that Krueger has had a sniff of success in tournament hockey shouldn’t, by any standards, make him so much as interview for an NHL head coaching gig. Terrible hire by JBot, and terrible move by Pegula to sanction it.

I know, I know…. Owners shouldn’t meddle, but this one was atrocious.

Some times you find lightning in a bottle. They roled the dice, and decided to think outside the box when they brought in Ralph. It was a desperate plan to shake things up and it back fired... 

But you can also give Pegula's a some kudos for not letting it fester for 2 full season or more. They cut bait relatively quickly

Also Ralph gave way to Granato who showed more that enough to become the permanent HC. Which I'm happy with that at this junction. The Adams/Granato hire took a bold move by the Pegula's because if it didn't work ....... 

As for Owners not meddling?   If I'm paying for a professional sports team I'm going to have input, especially if the guy making decisions at the GM level is not doing as well a I/we like.  Now that Adams is showing his plan ia actually working I expect Pegula's to be more comfortable and not having to meddle