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Refuting

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Taro T Hall of Famer

Taro T

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Thorny said:

ROR was still a good trade

Kane not so

It's also amazing that the "spectacularly wrong" still led to a point total (81) we've failed to match since 

I think under a good GM, this could be true. 

There's no reason to suspect that Murray, who showed poor aptitude in identifying the players to add to the room re: culture, would have had the aptitude to successfully pull off a different strategy 

Well, had his successor not decided winning the Dahlin sweepstakes gave him the opportunity to retool and get rid of the crown jewel of Murray's trades for a return that actually wasn't complete crud 4 years later and also not hired 2 bad coaches there is a non-negligible chance that the team would have eclipsed that total sometime in the last 5 years.

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Thorny Hall of Famer

Thorny

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Well, had his successor not decided winning the Dahlin sweepstakes gave him the opportunity to retool and get rid of the crown jewel of Murray's trades for a return that actually wasn't complete crud 4 years later and also not hired 2 bad coaches there is a non-negligible chance that the team would have eclipsed that total sometime in the last 5 years.

Ya. There hasn't been a situation that's been unsolvable, and they haven't attempted a strategy (outside of potentially the tank itself) that doesn't have plenty of documented successful cases of implementation across the league. 

In the end it comes down to the aptitude of the GMs in question. They haven't failed because they picked awful strategies, they've failed because they've implemented their strategies, awfully. 

Its execution. 

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Taro T Hall of Famer

Taro T

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya. There hasn't been a situation that's been unsolvable, and they haven't attempted a strategy (outside of potentially the tank itself) that doesn't have plenty of documented successful cases of implementation across the league. 

In the end it comes down to the aptitude of the GMs in question. They haven't failed because they picked awful strategies, they've failed because they've implemented their strategies, awfully. 

Its execution. 

Or, lack thereof.

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Eleven Hall of Famer

Eleven

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Toilet_Mop said:

That's fair enough but overpayment/slight overpayment guarantees you get the guy you want 

The problem is, every time someone floats the "Buffalo has to overpay" theory, which HAS BEEN DEBUNKED AND IS FALSE (sorry, I lived in the US from 2017-2021 so I have to be very loud with debunking), people jump on it.  As they already have here.

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Nitro60 Second Liner

Nitro60

Posted
Posted
On 11/18/2022 at 5:07 PM, Toilet_Mop said:

I think it's time. We have an exorbitant amount of prospects, players and 5'10 wingers who are all the same. 

I get the long term approach, but how many picks do you really need to acquire? Tim Murray did it backwards he traded everything like a madman which was highly entertaining but in the end, he was a crazy man. I give him credit for trying to win RIGHT NOW but he had to go. Still not sure why he traded Neuvirth. But to make no trades at all, and to only trade for picks and prospects is clearly not working. 

I don't dislike Granato or Adams. A full and complete rebuild is the right idea, which is what they're doing. Hope is great, and apart of hockey, but you can't sell hope forever. 

It's clear we need something to shake this roster up a bit, nothing insane, but something. I would take insane though. Nothing would make me happier than to acquire a Shane Doan type. So let's hear your best trade ideas, heck even the somewhat crazy ones. A trade would get this place AMPED and rightfully so. 

I would trade two firsts Mittlestadt and Jokiharu for Bo Horvat and if they wanted a bit more, do it 

MAKE A TRADE ADAMS 

 

 

Pushing the panic button when it seems management knew there would be growing pains.  Make a trade and still not make the playoffs?  Lose talented youth for a few wins.  Bad long term thinking. 

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JohnC First Liner

JohnC

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Posted
12 hours ago, Curt said:

Substitute Mittelstadt for Asplund.

What would be the return if Mittelstadt was dealt? That's the conundrum when talking trades. It comes down to getting value back. When you send out an inconsequential player you definitely are not going to get back a consequential player unless it is packaged with high end prospects and draft picks. Would you take that option? 

The Sabres had Jack, ROR, Reinhart, Risto, Hall and Ullmark. What did they all have in common? They all wanted out because they concluded that they were stuck in an organization that had no ability to get itself out of the muck of mediocrity in a reasonable period of time. You see teams like Jersey make that quantum leap after a rebuilding process. And there are teams that had succeeded and then needed to retool after their cup contending lifespan came to an end. And then they do it. 

My fear is that this prolonged failure is corrosive and demoralizing on the players (and the fans) gets to the point where the next batch of our better players will want out when their contracts allow them to do so. 

I don't know what the answer is about this interminable slide into meaningless and irrelevant hockey. It's numbing to the point of being apathetic. 

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mjd1001 Second Liner

mjd1001

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Curt said:

So, for me, it’s kind of an issue of role with Mitts.

What is he going to be?  He hasn’t been good at ES, so he isn’t looking like a top-6 forward.  I don’t see him as someone you deploy in a checking line/shutdown matchup type role.  So what is he?  A guy you play on your worst/lowest ice time ES line and use some on the PP and PK?

I’m not sure that is going to be that valuable on this team.

Maybe he does round into a decent ES player, but I’m kind of getting the feeling that he is trending towards becoming a cast off.

He eventually becomes your 3rd line center.  Can fill in at 2nd line center IF he improves from where he is or in case of injuries.  20-25 goals per season should not be out of the question with him. (currently on a 22-23 goal pace).    He only has just over 200 games played, so while at his age he probably is CLOSE to what you are going to get from him, there still might be some small upside in production.

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bunomatic All Star

bunomatic

Posted
Posted (edited)

We essentially have four rookies on this team. It is pretty much unheard of to be bringing four rookies into the league in the same year. This is KAs flawed approach. Its not working. One maybe two rookies is the standard. We need veteran help. Maybe not grizzled veteran help but experience is what we’re lacking. Guys that know how to win. Heck I’m not sure if any of our guys know how to win with all the losing they’ve been a part of. 

Edited by bunomatic
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Weave Hall of Famer

Weave

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

We essentially have four rookies on this team. It is pretty much unheard of to be bringing four rookies into the league in the same year. This is KAs flawed approach. Its not working. One maybe two rookies is the standard. We need veteran help. Maybe not grizzled veteran help but experience is what we’re lacking. Guys that know how to win. Heck I’m not sure if any of our guys know how to win with all the losing they’ve been a part of. 

I don’t know how it isn’t self evident that this many rookies and 2nd yr players is a recipe for disaster.

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Pimlach All Star

Pimlach

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Nitro60 said:

Pushing the panic button when it seems management knew there would be growing pains.  Make a trade and still not make the playoffs?  Lose talented youth for a few wins.  Bad long term thinking. 

I am all for making trades that improve the team right now and also support the longer term plan and are cap friendly.  Learning to win is a process and we need to start emphasizing winning.  McDermott called it "earning the right to win".  It applies in hockey and the Sabres are not doing that. 

This team plays what looks like an experimental system that favors individuals to open it up and score goals.  Just look at the defense and the goalies getting killed by it.  Look at all the breakaways and odd man rushes we give up.  The book is out there on how to beat this team, get up a few goals and we are done.  The coach needs to fix this.  

I do not agree with the implication from KA and DG that they can switch from development to winning sometime down the road.  You can't throw a switch and say, ok we are going to practice different, and play a different system,  and viola - we will win now.   I read and hear this stuff about them favoring development over winning but how do you develop NHL players when they lose every night? 

Let's look at development, we are developing Quinn and JJP by playing them with Cozens.  I look at Cozens and I cannot help but think how hard his job is playing with two AHL wingers (JJP and Quinn).  Did we ever do anything special to develop Cozens?  I don't think so.   This is not how Boston and Tampa (or most teams) operate.   Prospects must beat out real NHL players to get a shot.   Put Cozens on Boston and you will see a 2-way power forward that is painful to play against because they will enable that part of his game in part by who he plays with.  With us he is babysitting two rookies.  How long should he be patient?   We are saturated with youth and inexperience (Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Samuelsson, Power) - this might be unprecedented. 

Bottom line, we can improve the team a bit faster, and be more competitive, and get the fans hopeful, AND develop players.  What is holding us back is Pegula's "efficient and economic" nonsense.  

Detroit is taking another approach to their rebuild and they are in playoff contention, at least for now.  They don't have the prospect pool that we have but they are a destination that good players might want to go to.  We will see which approach is better in the next few years.  

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Curt First Liner

Curt

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, JohnC said:

What would be the return if Mittelstadt was dealt? That's the conundrum when talking trades. It comes down to getting value back. When you send out an inconsequential player you definitely are not going to get back a consequential player unless it is packaged with high end prospects and draft picks. Would you take that option? 

The Sabres had Jack, ROR, Reinhart, Risto, Hall and Ullmark. What did they all have in common? They all wanted out because they concluded that they were stuck in an organization that had no ability to get itself out of the muck of mediocrity in a reasonable period of time. You see teams like Jersey make that quantum leap after a rebuilding process. And there are teams that had succeeded and then needed to retool after their cup contending lifespan came to an end. And then they do it. 

My fear is that this prolonged failure is corrosive and demoralizing on the players (and the fans) gets to the point where the next batch of our better players will want out when their contracts allow them to do so. 

I don't know what the answer is about this interminable slide into meaningless and irrelevant hockey. It's numbing to the point of being apathetic. 

I’m only addressing the relevant part of your reply.


I don’t know what you could get for Mittelstadt, maybe a young defenseman who is also struggling a bit.  I’m not really advocating hard for trading Mittelstadt right now.  I just think Asplund has a much clearer role on this team and has performed better at ES than Mittelstadt.

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Curt First Liner

Curt

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

He eventually becomes your 3rd line center.  Can fill in at 2nd line center IF he improves from where he is or in case of injuries.  20-25 goals per season should not be out of the question with him. (currently on a 22-23 goal pace).    He only has just over 200 games played, so while at his age he probably is CLOSE to what you are going to get from him, there still might be some small upside in production.

I hope that he does become a 2/3C quality player.  He could, but I don’t think he is close currently.

Being on pace for 22-23 goals is nice, but if we are going to talk about his ES role, we need to look at his ES numbers.  Mittelstadt currently has 1 goal and 1 assist at ES, in 18 games.  His possession numbers are below average relative to the rest of the team, and is a -5 for whatever that’s worth.  He has been used mostly in 2nd/3rd line, scoring line roles.

By comparison, Asplund has 1 goal and 4 assists at ES in 16 games, and is a +1.  His possession numbers are also below average, but he has been used in a much more defensive role with fewer minutes.

Mittelstadt’s ES play has been very disappointing to me this season.  He has performed like a 4th liner at ES.  He has been better on special teams but I expected more.  I thought he might break out, but I’m now questioning whether he has a future on the team.

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