Pronman ranks Sabres pool #1 in NHL

[LGR4GM]

His list is 22 and younger regardless of games played. 

https://theathletic.com/3509824/2022/08/25/buffalo-sabres-nhl-pipeline-rankings-prospects?source=user-shared-article

[steveoath]

Discussed on their prospect pool podcast this week.

 

 

[PASabreFan]

Pronman:

[matter2003]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

His list is 22 and younger regardless of games played. 

https://theathletic.com/3509824/2022/08/25/buffalo-sabres-nhl-pipeline-rankings-prospects?source=user-shared-article

Shouldn't be a surprise...they are both very deep and very talented.

[Crusader1969]

At least Poltapov gets an honourable mention

He listed him as a “chance to play” 

i list him as a future “fan favorite”   Won’t light up the scoreboard but will battle , play hard and be a nightmare in the corners.   
think someone else compared him to Vrada and think (hope) it’s an excellent comparison

 

[LGR4GM]

These are the ranked players in Pronman's list.

Tiers: 1-3 (all star or bubble all star)

4-7 (top or bubble top of lineup)

8-11 (middle of lineup/starting goalie)

12-19 (projected to play in the NHL)

1. Rasmus Dahlin
2. Dylan Cozens
3. Owen Power
4. Jack Quinn
5. Peyton Krebs
6. Matthew Savoie
7. JJ Peterka
8. Juri Kulich
9. Devon Levi
10. Noah Östlund
11. Ryan Johnson
12. Mattias Samuelsson
13. Mats Lindgren
14. Olivier Nadeau
15. Isak Rosen
16. Viktor Neuchev
17. Eric Portillo
18. Topias Leinonen
19. Nikita Novikov

Here are the honorable mentions so to speak (he puts them in alphabetical order)

Josh Bloom, Filip Cederqvist, Aaron Huglen, Alek Kisakov, Prokhor Poltapov

 

[LGR4GM]

Really quick note. The fact that Mattias Samuelsson is listed in the "projected to play NHL games" category and in the description is talked about as probably a 3rd pairing defender due to lack of offense did make me laugh. While I think Muel will always lag behind others in terms of his offense, his ability to shutdown a rush, get the puck, and make the smart read and zone exit is quite good. My only concern continues to be the quickness of his feet but I think paired with Dahlin, it won't really matter as much as long as he continues to improve there. 

Also Jack Quinn was rated as a "below average" nhl skater and that is preposterous to me. Is he as fast as say Kulich or Savoie, no. But he is very quick and does have good speed. His edges are greatly improved too. My issue with Pronman's skating rankings will continue to be his die hard devotion to breakaway speed being a determining factor in how good someone skates. While he seems aware of edgework and quickness (your first 2-3 steps), he constantly will equate below NHL average skating with breakaway speed and once he determines you don't have that, doesn't matter if you get it later. Just narrowed minded way to rank skating. 

[Flashsabre]

The fact he doesn’t mention that #11 and #17 aren’t going to sign here and thus ruin the entire franchise tells me he really doesn’t know the Sabres.😜

[dudacek]

Pronman has his personal biases in what he values just like any of us, so most of the time I don't get upset or excited, I just use it is a filter and generally enjoy his work. Samuelsson is a good example of that. It seems like he gets what Mule brings, he just doesn't value it like I do.

But the actual scouting report on Dahlin tell me he didn't really watch him play much over the back half of the season. Anyone who says Dahlin lacks compete and physicality couldn't have been watching.

[Derrico]

The potential in that top 10.  Good lord.  Even with recency bias this must be our deepest and highest skill pool in nearly 20 years no?

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, Derrico said:

The potential in that top 10.  Good lord.  Even with recency bias this must be our deepest and highest skill pool in nearly 20 years no?

Probably even longer than that.  This is what a prospect pool looks like when you sell off your top players for prospects & picks & don't immediately turn around and trade those away.

[Thwomp!]

Drafting Lindgren in the 4th this year seems like quite a steal.

[Curt]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Really quick note. The fact that Mattias Samuelsson is listed in the "projected to play NHL games" category and in the description is talked about as probably a 3rd pairing defender due to lack of offense did make me laugh. While I think Muel will always lag behind others in terms of his offense, his ability to shutdown a rush, get the puck, and make the smart read and zone exit is quite good. My only concern continues to be the quickness of his feet but I think paired with Dahlin, it won't really matter as much as long as he continues to improve there. 

Also Jack Quinn was rated as a "below average" nhl skater and that is preposterous to me. Is he as fast as say Kulich or Savoie, no. But he is very quick and does have good speed. His edges are greatly improved too. My issue with Pronman's skating rankings will continue to be his die hard devotion to breakaway speed being a determining factor in how good someone skates. While he seems aware of edgework and quickness (your first 2-3 steps), he constantly will equate below NHL average skating with breakaway speed and once he determines you don't have that, doesn't matter if you get it later. Just narrowed minded way to rank skating. 

Samuelsson being sandwiched below Johnson/above Lindgren makes no sense. I’d have put Samuelsson around 7-8.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Samuelsson being sandwiched below Johnson/above Lindgren makes no sense. I’d have put Samuelsson around 7-8.

Makes perfect sense if he doesn't place much value on keeping the puck out of his own net and a ton of value on getting the puck in the other net & things like straight line forward skating.  Samuelsson will excel at the former but have issues with the latter 2.  Cool thing is, what he brings is something the Sabres really need.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Taro T

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Makes perfect sense if he doesn't place much value on keeping the puck out of his own net and a ton of value on getting the puck in the other net & things like straight line forward skating.  Samuelsson will excel at the former but have issues with the latter 2.  Cool thing is, what he brings is something the Sabres really need.

I guess I just have a different understanding of the skill sets.  No doubt Johnson is a faster/better skater, but I don’t think Johnson has shown any great aptitude for offense either.  I’d say that Samuelsson is a good transition passer and I think his instincts are really good.  We even saw Samuelsson sneak down below the goal line in the offensive end on occasion.  If Samuelsson ends up playing top pair with Dahlin, I think he will be a 30-35 point guy.

In my eyes he has already shown that he is going to be a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, so it’s surprising to see him ranked with guys who probably have similar upside, but have never played a game of pro hockey.

[Huckleberry]

38 minutes ago, Curt said:

I guess I just have a different understanding of the skill sets.  No doubt Johnson is a faster/better skater, but I don’t think Johnson has shown any great aptitude for offense either.  I’d say that Samuelsson is a good transition passer and I think his instincts are really good.  We even saw Samuelsson sneak down below the goal line in the offensive end on occasion.  If Samuelsson ends up playing top pair with Dahlin, I think he will be a 30-35 point guy.

In my eyes he has already shown that he is going to be a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, so it’s surprising to see him ranked with guys who probably have similar upside, but have never played a game of pro hockey.

This I don' t understand why he has him ranked higher -  Might not even ever make it.

[Taro T]

49 minutes ago, Curt said:

I guess I just have a different understanding of the skill sets.  No doubt Johnson is a faster/better skater, but I don’t think Johnson has shown any great aptitude for offense either.  I’d say that Samuelsson is a good transition passer and I think his instincts are really good.  We even saw Samuelsson sneak down below the goal line in the offensive end on occasion.  If Samuelsson ends up playing top pair with Dahlin, I think he will be a 30-35 point guy.

In my eyes he has already shown that he is going to be a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, so it’s surprising to see him ranked with guys who probably have similar upside, but have never played a game of pro hockey.

Would agree w/ the bolded, just sayin' that if Pronman stays rigid in his evaluation criteria then guys that fall outside of that & can't generate offense on their own will be rated lower than they should be rated.  Because it seems he's not valuing being able to shutdown offense on his own nearly as highly.  And that's where Samuelsson will excel.

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Really quick note. The fact that Mattias Samuelsson is listed in the "projected to play NHL games" category and in the description is talked about as probably a 3rd pairing defender due to lack of offense did make me laugh. While I think Muel will always lag behind others in terms of his offense, his ability to shutdown a rush, get the puck, and make the smart read and zone exit is quite good. My only concern continues to be the quickness of his feet but I think paired with Dahlin, it won't really matter as much as long as he continues to improve there. 

Also Jack Quinn was rated as a "below average" nhl skater and that is preposterous to me. Is he as fast as say Kulich or Savoie, no. But he is very quick and does have good speed. His edges are greatly improved too. My issue with Pronman's skating rankings will continue to be his die hard devotion to breakaway speed being a determining factor in how good someone skates. While he seems aware of edgework and quickness (your first 2-3 steps), he constantly will equate below NHL average skating with breakaway speed and once he determines you don't have that, doesn't matter if you get it later. Just narrowed minded way to rank skating. 

Seeing Johnson ahead of Muel is a mild surprise.  I hope we can sign him.  

[Crusader1969]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

Samuelsson being sandwiched below Johnson/above Lindgren makes no sense. I’d have put Samuelsson around 7-8.

Samuelsson is as important as anyone not named Dahlin and Power.   

[GoPuckYourself]

Levi is top 3 in my mind but I'm sure you can ask 20 people and come up with 20 entirely different lists.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Good Skating is one of those things I like our prospects to have but isn’t a make or break issue for many players unless their role depends on it.  The lack of top end speed certainly hasn’t hampered Reinhart for example.  Mattias  doesn’t need it great speed to play the defensive specialist who allows Dahlin to do what he does best.  

I do understand why he has Samuelsson relatively low.  Matt is a high floor low ceiling prospect.  He is what he is like Novikov further down the list.  He likely won’t ever be a player coaches use on the PP or when the team is down a goal with a minute to play.  So what.  This kid will probably play 1000 games NHL, much of it in the top 4, shutting down opponents top forwards.  His physical style is something this team needs more of.

A player like Nadeau doesn’t need it as long as he has enough speed to get to the front of the net on time when the puck is launched toward the net.  Dave Andreychuk made the Hall of Fame playing that way.  

Also speed without hockey sense is useless.  Laaksonen can’t play defense, so what good is his speed?  I worry Lindgren is much the same.  

I agree with @LGR4GM that Dahlin’s compete level has increased dramatically under DG and is no longer an issue. I also think his in zone play has also improved.  G-d what RK nearly did to this kid is unforgivable.  

Is anyone else worried about the lack of size among our forward prospects. The 3 1st rd pick this year are all under 6 feet.  Also we could use more physical players like Samuelsson and Novikov, especially up front.  Nadeau’s willingness to play in the dirty areas may become a necessity for this team. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Is anyone else worried about the lack of size among our forward prospects. The 3 1st rd pick this year are all under 6 feet.  Also we could use more physical players like Samuelsson and Novikov, especially up front.  Nadeau’s willingness to play in the dirty areas may become a necessity for this team. 

I will keep saying it. Size does not equal toughness. 

No, I am not worried about the 3 first round picks. I worry a little about Östlund but Savoie and Kulich are feisty players, similar to a JJ Peterka. There's lots of players in the system and on the team that play in the dirty areas. One thing that often gets forgotten around here is that if you are just standing in front of the net waiting to tip a point shot, you are actually a major hinderance at 5v5. The key is to arrive into the slot as the shot is taken or just before if you are a screen. Savoie, Kulich, Cozens, Quinn, Peterka are all guys who have that sense of timing. You don't always want to draw a defender into a screen, that's one more body between you and the back of the net, sometimes you want to draw them out of the slot and give a good shooter a clean shot. 

Physicality is good and JJP, Kulich, Savoie, and even Quinn all have it in various ways but the important part is grit/resilience. What are you willing to do to get to the spot on the ice you want to be in and what are you willing to do to get the puck back. That is what I want in my forwards and that is what I have seen get drafted. 

edit: I will toss in Poltapov and Neuchev as another two guys that have some grit. Neuchev btw is 6'2" so once he fills out he should be pretty sturdy. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Also speed without hockey sense is useless.  Laaksonen can’t play defense, so what good is his speed?  I worry Lindgren is much the same.  

 

Lindgren is extremely intelligent with the puck. I actually worry more about his edges and agility than I do his decision making. 

[LGR4GM]

30 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Good Skating is one of those things I like our prospects to have but isn’t a make or break issue for many players unless their role depends on it.  The lack of top end speed certainly hasn’t hampered Reinhart for example.  Mattias  doesn’t need it great speed to play the defensive specialist who allows Dahlin to do what he does best.   

Good skating absolutely breaks a prospect. The key here is that good skating isn't defined by top end speed as in the case of Samson Reinhart. Sam had excellent edges and strength with a quick first 2 steps. This allowed him to close short gaps quickly, stay in plays, and also skate out of trouble. The problem with Pronman is he equates breakaway speed with excellent skating when in most situations the key is can you close the 5-10foot gap or get the 5-10 foot gap to make a play. 

My concern with Mattias is not his speed but his quickness and agility. Hedman worked really hard on getting just a hair quicker and it made all the difference. 

[LGR4GM]

33 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

I agree with @LGR4GM that Dahlin’s compete level has increased dramatically under DG and is no longer an issue. I also think his in zone play has also improved.  G-d what RK nearly did to this kid is unforgivable.  

 

Dahlin's entire problem was that Krueger took away the greatest asset that Dahlin possesses, his creativity. Dahlin was being forced into a rigid system of identify the exit and make the pass and Dahlin isn't that guy. He is someone who will slow the game down or speed it up based on his first read. Once he stopped trusting his instincts to conform to the trash system Smith and Krueger wanted, he was broken. Granato got him back to trusting his instincts and when he made mistakes, teaching him what went wrong and why. I never doubted Dahlin's compete and never will, he sometimes cares too much and had to get back to the fun of hockey. Can't wait for the 22yr old season of Dahlin with Samuelsson as his partner. They are going to wreck some guys.