Is Don Granato the best coach the Sabres have had since Lindy Ruff?

[calti]

7 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Art Wander said Phillipe Boucher had nice buns. Not sure if it was the same show where the Tot waxed poetic about split pea soup. He sure could paint a picture.

Art was more Buffalo than Buffalo

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by calti

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, calti said:

Art was more Buffalo than Buffalo

 

Art routinely berated any fan that disagreed w/ him.  Which was basically anyone w/ a functioning cerebral cortex.  That he had no problem ####ing on kids calling in to his show really highlighted what a (sad example of a) human he was.

The tiny tot was not something for Buffaloanians to celebrate.  He was one to denegrate.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Except it doesn't seem to be a panic.  They don't overskate (in general, though on the Detroit tying goal they did overskate) nor do they totally fall back into 5 men below the circles. Seems to be more of a running out of energy.

Which, again IMHO, goes back to the other team getting the matchups they want & the overmatched Sabres not being able to match that for 60 full minutes.  The ONLY time that's happened at home for close to a whole period was in the 2nd period of the Bolts game and Granato righted that ship in the intermission.  That it doesn't happen at home often but regularly happens on the road says that matchups are a factor.  IMHO.  YMMV.

In fairness though I don't think there are many regular season games where any teams come at you every period for 3 full periods. They usually fluctuate and have off and on periods. We want to start faster I think and try to get ahead (that's the plan anyway) and we do run out of gas. But I also think we run around and panic under pressure in the 3rd. 

I'm thinking it's a work in progress sort of thing. I feel we are seeing more effort than in the past years so I am hopeful that it keeps improving. 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

In fairness though I don't think there are many regular season games where any teams come at you every period for 3 full periods. They usually fluctuate and have off and on periods. We want to start faster I think and try to get ahead (that's the plan anyway) and we do run out of gas. But I also think we run around and panic under pressure in the 3rd. 

I'm thinking it's a work in progress sort of thing. I feel we are seeing more effort than in the past years so I am hopeful that it keeps improving. 

It's absolutely a WIP thing.

But, IMHO they don't panic.  They get outplayed significantly, but honestly don't see panic in that.  See a better team finally dictating.  But that better team couldn't do it earlier.  Why not?  My money says it's because the weaker team busted it's arse but the matchups finally wore them out.  Considering we essentially haven't seen that at home lends credence.

Would love to hear your thoughts on why it happens on the road but not at home.  Change my mind.

[PerreaultForever]

13 minutes ago, Taro T said:

It's absolutely a WIP thing.

But, IMHO they don't panic.  They get outplayed significantly, but honestly don't see panic in that.  See a better team finally dictating.  But that better team couldn't do it earlier.  Why not?  My money says it's because the weaker team busted it's arse but the matchups finally wore them out.  Considering we essentially haven't seen that at home lends credence.

Would love to hear your thoughts on why it happens on the road but not at home.  Change my mind.

Well, I don't think it's all that complicated. At this time of the year most teams play harder/better at home. Florida 8-0 at home, both losses on the road. Toronto 8-2 at home, 3-3 on the road. Boston 6-1 at home 2-4 on the road and so on. Calgary had a great road trip but not many exceptions to that including us. It shouldn't be this way maybe but it's a long season and teams simply don't go as hard on every game and home games tend to bring out the best efforts. 

Second half of the season this will change and the truly better teams will be tougher on the road too as points become crucial.

I think it's also true too that young teams historically take longer learning to win on the road (and to hold leads). If you've watched hockey for decades you've seen this play out time and time again. 

Line match ups do matter but I don't think that's huge in our case as we do not have clearly defined top lines or checking lines, they are all kind of equal. Sure, Tage's line is the bigger offensive line at the moment but it's not by a lot. Scoring is spread out and so is defense. 

The defense is another matter though. We do not have big minute shutdown D men who can carry big chunks of the 3rd. This matters a lot imo which is why I like all those shiny D prospects we have coming and want to keep that cupboard stocked full. 

[Taro T]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well, I don't think it's all that complicated. At this time of the year most teams play harder/better at home. Florida 8-0 at home, both losses on the road. Toronto 8-2 at home, 3-3 on the road. Boston 6-1 at home 2-4 on the road and so on. Calgary had a great road trip but not many exceptions to that including us. It shouldn't be this way maybe but it's a long season and teams simply don't go as hard on every game and home games tend to bring out the best efforts. 

Second half of the season this will change and the truly better teams will be tougher on the road too as points become crucial.

I think it's also true too that young teams historically take longer learning to win on the road (and to hold leads). If you've watched hockey for decades you've seen this play out time and time again.

Line match ups do matter but I don't think that's huge in our case as we do not have clearly defined top lines or checking lines, they are all kind of equal. Sure, Tage's line is the bigger offensive line at the moment but it's not by a lot. Scoring is spread out and so is defense. 

The defense is another matter though. We do not have big minute shutdown D men who can carry big chunks of the 3rd. This matters a lot imo which is why I like all those shiny D prospects we have coming and want to keep that cupboard stocked full. 

OK.  But why do the Sabres start fast on the road more often than not, but get pinned in during  the 3rd period?  None of what you've said addresses that phenomenon.

.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Taro T

[triumph_communes]

11 hours ago, Taro T said:

It's absolutely a WIP thing.

But, IMHO they don't panic.  They get outplayed significantly, but honestly don't see panic in that.  See a better team finally dictating.  But that better team couldn't do it earlier.  Why not?  My money says it's because the weaker team busted it's arse but the matchups finally wore them out.  Considering we essentially haven't seen that at home lends credence.

Would love to hear your thoughts on why it happens on the road but not at home.  Change my mind.

They panic. It’s a bunch of lazy clearing off the boards even though they have time that results in the other team keeping the puck in and more skating around.  Bunch of waiting for the puck to come to them and other team closing the gap because of it.  Bad part is the worst offenders are our vets (Miller, Skinner)

Edited November 18, 2021 by triumph_communes

[PASabreFan]

10 hours ago, Taro T said:

OK.  But why do the Sabres start fast on the road more often than not, but get pinned in during  the 3rd period?  None of what you've said addresses that phenomenon.

And, no offense, but go #### yourself on the "(i)f you've watched hockey for decades you've seen this play out time and time again" bit.  You know #### well yours truly has seen a game or 2 & coached a fair number as well.

Art?

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Art?

Life imitating.

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

OK.  But why do the Sabres start fast on the road more often than not, but get pinned in during  the 3rd period?  None of what you've said addresses that phenomenon.

And, no offense, but go #### yourself on the "(i)f you've watched hockey for decades you've seen this play out time and time again" bit.  You know #### well yours truly has seen a game or 2 & coached a fair number as well.

Fast starts are due to youthful exuberance and doing what the coach tells them to do when the game starts. Then they get caught up in the game and it fades. I really don't find this overly surprising or unique. I mean what's the alternate hypothesis, that these young guys are bad athletes and can't keep it up? They're unfit? I don't think so.

Not sure why you're upset over the other comment. Guess you read it as condescension? Wasn't. Just saying that I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Haven't you? 

So thank you very much for your kind words and judgements. Have a nice day. 

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Fast starts are due to youthful exuberance and doing what the coach tells them to do when the game starts. Then they get caught up in the game and it fades. I really don't find this overly surprising or unique. I mean what's the alternate hypothesis, that these young guys are bad athletes and can't keep it up? They're unfit? I don't think so.

Not sure why you're upset over the other comment. Guess you read it as condescension? Wasn't. Just saying that I've seen this sort of thing many times before. Haven't you? 

So thank you very much for your kind words and judgements. Have a nice day. 

Yeah, the response was harsher than necessary.  Apologies.

[PerreaultForever]

19 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yeah, the response was harsher than necessary.  Apologies.

All good. Sometimes my stream of consciousness babble isn't clear and can be misread. I get that. 

[SwampD]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

OK.  But why do the Sabres start fast on the road more often than not, but get pinned in during  the 3rd period?  None of what you've said addresses that phenomenon.

And, no offense, but go #### yourself on the "(i)f you've watched hockey for decades you've seen this play out time and time again" bit.  You know #### well yours truly has seen a game or 2 & coached a fair number as well.

We've had the leads in those games. When both team rolled all four lines, we could keep up and even take advantage of their lower lines. I think in the third, though, the other teams shortend their bench and got the last change. Our best guys couldn't keep up with their best guys because they have more of them (and better.)

It seemed like Carter, Letang, and Crosby played the entire third period.

That's my take, anyway.

[thewookie1]

11 minutes ago, SwampD said:

We've had the leads in those games. When both team rolled all four lines, we could keep up and even take advantage of their lower lines. I think in the third, though, the other teams shortend their bench and got the last change. Our best guys couldn't keep up with their best guys because they have more of them (and better.)

It seemed like Carter, Letang, and Crosby played the entire third period.

That's my take, anyway.

Probably part of it; as a whole we can compete with far better teams but when they begin shortening their benches the difference between skill levels becomes more pronounced. Additionally we produce less offensive pressure since we have no way to brutalize their weaker defensemen who tend to be sat.

It would fall into the same reasoning the Oilers fail in the playoffs in part, but in reverse. The Oilers have 2 incredible players who when on 1 line; if they can be cancelled out, or at least contained, the other 3 lines get caved by their opponent. Our problem is that our depth is pretty capable but we lack much of any top end scoring or playmaking. 
 

Effectively, on the road it becomes far more pronounced as we can’t play matchups. Even if Cozens can end up in a draw with Crosby, Pittsburgh can merely shift around Cozens to give Crosby our lesser line of scraps with R2 and Bjork. And once they start grooving it makes Cozens’ job even harder to the point the dam begins to crack and leak.

[dudacek]

49 minutes ago, SwampD said:

We've had the leads in those games. When both team rolled all four lines, we could keep up and even take advantage of their lower lines. I think in the third, though, the other teams shortend their bench and got the last change. Our best guys couldn't keep up with their best guys because they have more of them (and better.)

It seemed like Carter, Letang, and Crosby played the entire third period.

That's my take, anyway.

I wonder if/how adding Mitts, Tuch and VO - arguably the Sabres 3 best forwards right now - changes this.

 

[CallawaySabres]

His interview this morning was great, and I think he is here for the long haul. He has no interest in winning games 2-1 or 1-0 as it does not teach the proper offense to the future scorers of this team. I actually have high hopes for next year provided they can find a goaltender to help. I think by 2023, this team has a good chance to have some pretty serious firepower behind it. 

[thewookie1]

4 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

His interview this morning was great, and I think he is here for the long haul. He has no interest in winning games 2-1 or 1-0 as it does not teach the proper offense to the future scorers of this team. I actually have high hopes for next year provided they can find a goaltender to help. I think by 2023, this team has a good chance to have some pretty serious firepower behind it. 

You know he's good if even Callaway isn't raining on his parade. 😉 

[CallawaySabres]

8 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

You know he's good if even Callaway isn't raining on his parade. 😉 

The funny thing is that outside of sports, I am probably one of the most fun, positive people you could imagine 🤫

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

The funny thing is that outside of sports, I am probably one of the most fun, positive people you could imagine 🤫

I dunno.  I don’t have much of an imagination.

[woods-racer]

54 minutes ago, Weave said:

I dunno.  I don’t have much of an imagination.

Let me paint you a picture of @CallawaySabres.

 

Callaway looks like Andre the Giant in fishnet stockings with 20 golf balls in one hand and a hockey stick in the other. He yells,  *run weave run!*. Right then he starts bouncing the golf balls off the ground then slaps them with the hockey stick in your direction. All you here is Andre laughing while your running.

 

Welcome to my imagination.

Edited November 24, 2021 by woods-racer

[Weave]

Sounds lime you have enough imagination to imagine you as a positive person!

[woods-racer]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Sounds lime you have enough imagination to imagine you as a positive person!

My limes do sound positive.

But my imagination is suspect. 

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, CallawaySabres said:

His interview this morning was great, and I think he is here for the long haul. He has no interest in winning games 2-1 or 1-0 as it does not teach the proper offense to the future scorers of this team. I actually have high hopes for next year provided they can find a goaltender to help. I think by 2023, this team has a good chance to have some pretty serious firepower behind it. 

Within this WGR link is the 15 min interview with Granato on the Howard and Jeremy show that you are alluding to. He has strong beliefs in how to develop players and improve teams. He's certainly doesn't have an old school hockey approach to the game. 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/authors/howard-and-jeremy

[woods-racer]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Within this WGR link is the 15 min interview with Granato on the Howard and Jeremy show that you are alluding to. He has strong beliefs in how to develop players and improve teams. He's certainly doesn't have an old school hockey approach to the game. 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/authors/howard-and-jeremy

He was doing a seminar that is a few years old now that I watched. He stressed even then that teaching offense is much more difficult and harder to master than defense. He wants a offense first team and then will transition to a trap style when needed. 

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, woods-racer said:

He was doing a seminar that is a few years old now that I watched. He stressed even then that teaching offense is much more difficult and harder to master than defense. He wants a offense first team and then will transition to a trap style when needed. 

As a coach Granato's forte revolves more around the psychology of developing players more than it does around systems. You are right that from a starting point he places more emphasis on offense, and then builds from there. Interestingly, he noted that he was also in the business of entertainment and was conscious in providing a style of play that highlights that aspect of the game. No one can deny that even with the mounting losses this is a more entertaining team than from the past.