Kane traded to San Jose for a Cond. ‘19 1st, Dan O’ Regan and Conditional 4th

[freester]

In hindsight signing Okposo was a huge mistake. That money could have gone toward resigning Kane who is a much better and younger player.

[dudacek]

Never bought into the idea that he couldn't work with good linemates.

I think there was a good amount of truth to this when he arrived.

I don’t think people recognized the improvements he made in his game while he was here. Particularly in this area.

[Winston]

In hindsight signing Okposo was a huge mistake. That money could have gone toward resigning Kane who is a much better and younger player.

 

Okposo was 28 when his contract started. Kane will be 27 when his next contract begins.

 

Kyle played 9 full seasons before inking his contract with Buffalo. This is Kane's 9th season, so they're also equivalent there. The difference?

 

Okposo has scored 156 goals and 253 assists for 409 points in 585 games (0.699 PPG)

Kane has scored 177 goals and 163 assists for 340 points in 557 games (0.610 PPG)

[freester]

Okposo was 28 when his contract started. Kane will be 27 when his next contract begins.

 

Kyle played 9 full seasons before inking his contract with Buffalo. This is Kane's 9th season, so they're also equivalent there. The difference?

 

Okposo has scored 156 goals and 253 assists for 409 points in 585 games (0.699 PPG)

Kane has scored 177 goals and 163 assists for 340 points in 557 games (0.610 PPG)

Yes but Kane has played on terrible teams and never had John Tavares on his line.

[PASabreFan]

So, nothing, then?

 

Just like I remembered.

 

Oh wait, he did all that while being black.

 

 

Teehee.

That's where I was heading. It doesn't amount to much. His legal run-ins also didn't amount to much. Compare to Pat Kane. What is Pat's rep around the league. How fast would Terry try to jump in and sign him if he became available? My question yesterday was never about overt racism in the league. No GM is going to outright think, "No way I'm trading for a black guy." But is it not indisputable that Kane has had a much rougher ride than a comparable white guy would have? The "rep" that gave GMs pause... that's where the trouble starts.

 

It's like the new guy on a team has never had an amazing first game before ever.

 

I hope San Jose is a good fit for him. They're a better team overall and maybe he even has some natural chemistry.

 

But let's see what things look like in 10 games or so.

Atta boy! Just wait til he only tips 19% at some fancy SJ restaurant.

Edited February 28, 2018 by PASabreFan

[pastajoe]

Okposo wasn’t the mistake, signing Moulson 5 for $5m was.

[SDS]

That's where I was heading. It doesn't amount to much. His legal run-ins also didn't amount to much. Compare to Pat Kane. What is Pat's rep around the league. How fast would Terry try to jump in and sign him if he became available? My question yesterday was never about overt racism in the league. No GM is going to outright think, "No way I'm trading for a black guy." But is it not indisputable that Kane has had a much rougher ride than a comparable white guy would have? The "rep" that gave GMs pause... that's where the trouble starts.

 

Atta boy! Just wait til he only tips 19% at some fancy SJ restaurant.

 

Patrick Kane is an awful comparison. He has 810 points in 803 games and is (was?) truly elite. Evander only compares to him when the roster is sorted by last name.

[nfreeman]

It's like the new guy on a team has never had an amazing first game before ever.

 

I hope San Jose is a good fit for him. They're a better team overall and maybe he even has some natural chemistry.

 

But let's see what things look like in 10 games or so.

 

Well, it's very much in the Sabres' interests for Kane to play well, as this would increase the likelihood of him re-signing with SJ.

 

 

That's where I was heading. It doesn't amount to much. His legal run-ins also didn't amount to much. Compare to Pat Kane. What is Pat's rep around the league. How fast would Terry try to jump in and sign him if he became available? My question yesterday was never about overt racism in the league. No GM is going to outright think, "No way I'm trading for a black guy." But is it not indisputable that Kane has had a much rougher ride than a comparable white guy would have? The "rep" that gave GMs pause... that's where the trouble starts.

 

Atta boy! Just wait til he only tips 19% at some fancy SJ restaurant.

 

Yes, it's disputable, and precisely because we have no idea what exactly constitutes "comparable."

 

We have no idea how liked or disliked Kane was by his teammates and/or coaches in Buffalo -- although there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest he was disliked by his teammates in Winnipeg.  It's also quite possible that his coaches in Buffalo didn't love him in light of the skipping practice incident plus reported last-on-first-off habits.

 

Do we know whether a white player with pre-existing baggage has gotten arrested for assaulting a woman the day before his team, with a relatively new owner, hosted the NHL draft in their expensive new downtown development?  And then followed it up with a 2nd similar legal scrape a few months later?  And then sought a huge new contract the following year?

 

This is what I meant about jumping to the racism conclusion.  These facts, and what we know and don't know, matter critically. 

[PASabreFan]

Patrick Kane is an awful comparison. He has 810 points in 803 games and is (was?) truly elite. Evander only compares to him when the roster is sorted by last name.

Fair... sort of. That they share only a last name is kind of a low blow. Evander is closing in on 200 career goals. He's been a 20-goal scorer with the Sabres. His ceiling is, what? 30-35 goals. He's big, fast and nasty. These guys are not a dime a dozen, yet the Sabres had to take some sticks and $5 off if you spend $25 coupons for him. A little curious?

[That Aud Smell]

Fair... sort of. That they share only a last name is kind of a low blow. Evander is closing in on 200 career goals. He's been a 20-goal scorer with the Sabres. His ceiling is, what? 30-35 goals. He's big, fast and nasty. These guys are not a dime a dozen, yet the Sabres had to take some sticks and $5 off if you spend $25 coupons for him. A little curious?

 

I'm losing the thread here.

 

They "had to"? They chose not to pursue re-signing him (because reasons) and then moved him as a deadline day asset on an expiring contract. And the return was what it was.

 

Why is it curious?

[bcsaberks]

2 assists tonight and wtf he is passing...

So its time to get rid of the problems...or get a new hard nose coach...

Assist 1 = deflected shot (generated by questionable no call, boarding)

Assist 2 (2nd) = breakout pass

Not like he was giving up shot attempts. 

[PASabreFan]

Well, it's very much in the Sabres' interests for Kane to play well, as this would increase the likelihood of him re-signing with SJ.

 

 

 

Yes, it's disputable, and precisely because we have no idea what exactly constitutes "comparable."

 

We have no idea how liked or disliked Kane was by his teammates and/or coaches in Buffalo -- although there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest he was disliked by his teammates in Winnipeg.  It's also quite possible that his coaches in Buffalo didn't love him in light of the skipping practice incident plus reported last-on-first-off habits.

 

Do we know whether a white player with pre-existing baggage has gotten arrested for assaulting a woman the day before his team, with a relatively new owner, hosted the NHL draft in their expensive new downtown development?  And then followed it up with a 2nd similar legal scrape a few months later?  And then sought a huge new contract the following year?

 

This is what I meant about jumping to the racism conclusion.  These facts, and what we know and don't know, matter critically. 

He didn't get arrested for assaulting a woman. He was arrested and charged with misdemeanor trespassing. The other "legal scrape" was months before that, and he wasn't charged.

 

Why does the timing of the bar incident matter? You almost make it sound like the Pegulas were the biggest victims.

I'm losing the thread here.

 

They "had to"? They chose not to pursue re-signing him (because reasons) and then moved him as a deadline day asset on an expiring contract. And the return was what it was.

 

Why is it curious?

The lack of interest in a player who should have been coveted by lots of teams. If not for... the "rep."

[North Buffalo]

Assist 1 = deflected shot (generated by questionable no call, boarding)

Assist 2 (2nd) = breakout pass

Not like he was giving up shot attempts. 

Watched the game. Despite the non call nice pass. Also secondary was a long boards freeing up puck. He also made some other nice passes that didnt end up in goals.

[erickompositör72]

There's too much info we simply don't know. If GMBot knew Kane's two most-likely destinations in free agency are Buffalo and SJ, I don't feel so bad about the trade.

[That Aud Smell]

The lack of interest in a player who should have been coveted by lots of teams. If not for... the "rep."

 

Ah, I see. Okay. Yeah - I just tend to differ, at least somewhat, on that take. 

 

For reasons I've explained, I'm just not a fan of the player.

[nfreeman]

He didn't get arrested for assaulting a woman. He was arrested and charged with misdemeanor trespassing. The other "legal scrape" was months before that, and he wasn't charged.

 

Why does the timing of the bar incident matter? You almost make it sound like the Pegulas were the biggest victims.

The lack of interest in a player who should have been coveted by lots of teams. If not for... the "rep."

 

Now you're splitting hairs.  He was handcuffed on a sidewalk in front of cameras and everyone knew it was for allegedly choking a woman in a bar.  And everyone also knew the other scrape was for alleged sexual assault.

 

(I will note again for the record that it's quite likely he was innocent in both cases.  It still reflected badly on him and on the team.)

 

As for the timing, in the real world it matters.  It played out in front of the entire league and its media, and at a moment when the organization wanted to put its best foot forward.  No company would want one of its employees to cause a problem like that at a moment like that. 

 

And again "should have been coveted" depends on facts we don't know, and "but for the rep" assumes that those unknown facts are irrelevant, and only the rep -- i.e. the Vegas photos and the skin color -- matter.  That is an unsupportable assumption.

 

I would agree with saying "a player whose on-ice production would lead us to think that most teams would covet him, but other factors have depressed his value" -- but not the assumption that those other factors include racism.  That's an assumption about other people that I don't think anyone should make without evidence.

[PASabreFan]

Now you're splitting hairs.  He was handcuffed on a sidewalk in front of cameras and everyone knew it was for allegedly choking a woman in a bar.  And everyone also knew the other scrape was for alleged sexual assault.

 

(I will note again for the record that it's quite likely he was innocent in both cases.  It still reflected badly on him and on the team.)

 

As for the timing, in the real world it matters.  It played out in front of the entire league and its media, and at a moment when the organization wanted to put its best foot forward.  No company would want one of its employees to cause a problem like that at a moment like that. 

 

And again "should have been coveted" depends on facts we don't know, and "but for the rep" assumes that those unknown facts are irrelevant, and only the rep -- i.e. the Vegas photos and the skin color -- matter.  That is an unsupportable assumption.

 

I would agree with saying "a player whose on-ice production would lead us to think that most teams would covet him, but other factors have depressed his value" -- but not the assumption that those other factors include racism.  That's an assumption about other people that I don't think anyone should make without evidence.

The arrest came in July and occurred outside in view of media, who were conveniently on location. Again, not curious?

 

The racism angle, as I explained earlier, isn't about racist GMs. It's about GMs buying into a rep that in my opinion is colored by racism in part. What's the rundown on Kane everyone uses? Oh, he walked out on restaurant bills in Winnipeg. Did it happen? Was an honest mistake blown out of proportion by a waitress or restaurant owner in the liberal bastion of Canada? He took pics with stacks of cash on his back. Does that carry as much weight as it did if he's Pat Kane, who beat up a cabby, had his own sexual assault legal scrape, appeared drunk at a Cup rally and so on?

[nfreeman]

The arrest came in July and occurred outside in view of media, who were conveniently on location. Again, not curious?

 

The racism angle, as I explained earlier, isn't about racist GMs. It's about GMs buying into a rep that in my opinion is colored by racism in part. What's the rundown on Kane everyone uses? Oh, he walked out on restaurant bills in Winnipeg. Did it happen? Was an honest mistake blown out of proportion by a waitress or restaurant owner in the liberal bastion of Canada? He took pics with stacks of cash on his back. Does that carry as much weight as it did if he's Pat Kane, who beat up a cabby, had his own sexual assault legal scrape, appeared drunk at a Cup rally and so on?

 

I think, more than the episodes you mentioned, it's:

 

- major locker room issues in Winnipeg

- 2 legal scrapes involving allegations of assaulting women

- skipping/being late for practice

- allegedly last-on-first-off for practice

- allegedly not well liked in locker room in Buffalo

 

And now I think we've beaten this one to death.

[North Buffalo]

Thiught the guy turned out better than originally thought. Still hope the best for him despite his flaws and he is gone. Hoping he brings a first rounder.

[bcsaberks]

Watched the game. Despite the non call nice pass. Also secondary was a long boards freeing up puck. He also made some other nice passes that didnt end up in goals.

Fair enough. May he pass his way to the Stanley Cup then!

[jahnyc]

I expect that Kane will play well and hard for the Sharks.  He is free agent after this season, which should be enough motivation, but it also must be energizing for him to be playing on a playoff bound team.

 

.

[That Aud Smell]

I expect that Kane will play well and hard for the Sharks.  He is free agent after this season, which should be enough motivation, but it also must be energizing for him to be playing on a playoff bound team.

 

He always struck me as a pretty emotional guy and one whose game is strongly influenced by where his head and heart are at, so I think that he will get that "fresh start" bounce that gets talked about.

 

And he's streaky too. For several weeks before the trade deadline, he had been having little or no luck getting on the score sheet.

 

I'd lay better than even odds that he fairly tears it up this spring.

[Weave]

I think there was a good amount of truth to this when he arrived.

I don’t think people recognized the improvements he made in his game while he was here. Particularly in this area.

I’ve touched on that in the past. IMO he was a selfish player in the past because he was the best player on his line (often by alot) and has a very healthy “F you, Jobu, I’ll do it myself” personality, and it was a significant adjustment to come into centers like ROR and Jack. It took a bit to dial back the internal need to do it all himself. Not low Hockey IQ at all (don’t buy that any of us can adequately judge that anyway), just a guy who’s had to carry the freight and is well suited to it from a personality standpoint.

[North Buffalo]

I’ve touched on that in the past. IMO he was a selfish player in the past because he was the best player on his line (often by alot) and has a very healthy “F you, Jobu, I’ll do it myself” personality, and it was a significant adjustment to come into centers like ROR and Jack. It took a bit to dial back the internal need to do it all himself. Not low Hockey IQ at all (don’t buy that any of us can adequately judge that anyway), just a guy who’s had to carry the freight and is well suited to it from a personality standpoint.

Interesting take...

[Georgia Blizzard]

Okposo wasn’t the mistake, signing Moulson 5 for $5m was.

 

The list of GMTM mistakes grows longer by the day !

 

At this point, Okposo is on that list, too

 

The Moulson signing was wrong on many levels, term too high, his value peaked in a year we wanted to tank