Samson's Flow Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Even that point, though, is dwarfed by 2 much more important factors: 1. Is Kane interested in signing an extension with the Sabres? No - he wants to test the market and play in warm weather city 2. Are the Sabres interested in signing Kane to an extension? Some interest, but not at expense of losing Eichel/ROR/Okposo/Reino to long term cap issues We have zero information about either of these questions, and until we do, it's all just highly uninformed speculation. My highly uninformed speculation in red above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 My highly uninformed speculation in red above. Yup. Also, I brought this up earlier so sorry if someone addressed it, but can anyone name a player on the Pens that's similar to Kane? He doesn't seem like a Botteril guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I think that's the line in the sand where I'm not happy about it, but I'm not upset. A 2nd and a b prospect is about as low as I'd go I guess See, that's fine, all I'm saying is there is a line, and don't go back on it just because he might (even probably will) get hurt again or might (even probably will) not sign next year. I think my line is a little higher, but whatever. There isn't an absolute need to trade him now; unless he's injured at the trade deadline I think his value will be similar, if a little smaller, then, plus you get half a year of good production out of him. J-bot should define his value and not take anything less. I also think Kane wouldn't have an issue signing here, but that he'll cost more than we're willing to pay. People talk about players wanting to play somewhere warm, but I think they generally just want to maximise their money and to win, wherever that takes them. Only about 1/3 of the league is below the Mason/Dixon line, and most of those teams aren't that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 See, that's fine, all I'm saying is there is a line, and don't go back on it just because he might (even probably will) get hurt again or might (even probably will) not sign next year. I think my line is a little higher, but whatever. There isn't an absolute need to trade him now; unless he's injured at the trade deadline I think his value will be similar, if a little smaller, then, plus you get half a year of good production out of him. J-bot should define his value and not take anything less. I also think Kane wouldn't have an issue signing here, but that he'll cost more than we're willing to pay. People talk about players wanting to play somewhere warm, but I think they generally just want to maximise their money and to win, wherever that takes them. Only about 1/3 of the league is below the Mason/Dixon line, and most of those teams aren't that good. My only counterpoint to this is next year's half season production means basically nothing IMO. If we aren't good enough to make the playoffs, who cares if we finish at 85 points or 80 points? And if Kane's production is good enough to get us into the playoffs, then we won't be sellers at the deadline anyways and we lose him for nothing at the end of the year. Do we have a legitimate shot at contending for the cup next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 See, that's fine, all I'm saying is there is a line, and don't go back on it just because he might (even probably will) get hurt again or might (even probably will) not sign next year. I think my line is a little higher, but whatever. There isn't an absolute need to trade him now; unless he's injured at the trade deadline I think his value will be similar, if a little smaller, then, plus you get half a year of good production out of him. J-bot should define his value and not take anything less. I also think Kane wouldn't have an issue signing here, but that he'll cost more than we're willing to pay. People talk about players wanting to play somewhere warm, but I think they generally just want to maximise their money and to win, wherever that takes them. Only about 1/3 of the league is below the Mason/Dixon line, and most of those teams aren't that good. If he's hurt by the deadline, that line changes. Same if he's not going to sign next year. Those are massive contributing factors for determining how much he's worth; not objectively, but to the Sabres Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 My only counterpoint to this is next year's half season production means basically nothing IMO. If we aren't good enough to make the playoffs, who cares if we finish at 85 points or 80 points? And if Kane's production is good enough to get us into the playoffs, then we won't be sellers at the deadline anyways and we lose him for nothing at the end of the year. Do we have a legitimate shot at contending for the cup next year? I don't get that point either. If we're not keeping him long term I'd rather see what we have in his replacement now. We aren't serious contenders yet. His value will only go down as he gets closer to UFA status and if he's gets hurt before the deadline we risk seeing him walk for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Yup. Also, I brought this up earlier so sorry if someone addressed it, but can anyone name a player on the Pens that's similar to Kane? He doesn't seem like a Botteril guy Well, Kessel took quite a bit of criticism from the Toronto media for being a "me first" guy who didn't do much on his own time to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 My only counterpoint to this is next year's half season production means basically nothing IMO. If we aren't good enough to make the playoffs, who cares if we finish at 85 points or 80 points? And if Kane's production is good enough to get us into the playoffs, then we won't be sellers at the deadline anyways and we lose him for nothing at the end of the year. Do we have a legitimate shot at contending for the cup next year? I think we can be good enough to make the playoffs. Maybe that is where we differ. Cup, probably no, but playoffs yes. The freakin' Senators made it to the Conference finals for chrissakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 I think we can be good enough to make the playoffs. Maybe that is where we differ. Cup, probably no, but playoffs yes. The freakin' Senators made it to the Conference finals for chrissakes. I think we are on the cusp of the playoffs with Kane, but i'm fairly certain we won't be able to re-sign him. that's why I made my second point "And if Kane's production is good enough to get us into the playoffs, then we won't be sellers at the deadline anyways and we lose him for nothing at the end of the year." I say making the playoffs and losing Kane isn't worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tondas Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Yup. Also, I brought this up earlier so sorry if someone addressed it, but can anyone name a player on the Pens that's similar to Kane? He doesn't seem like a Botteril guy Tocchet :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 Well, Kessel took quite a bit of criticism from the Toronto media for being a "me first" guy who didn't do much on his own time to improve. Of course, Kessel is/was a much better player than Kane, and those criticisms were just fueled by a need for someone to blame for the team sucking. I don't think anyone here is blaming Kane for the Sabres' problems (if they are, we should shun them appropriately), simply focused on the economics and fit of things going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted June 21, 2017 Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I think we are on the cusp of the playoffs with Kane, but i'm fairly certain we won't be able to re-sign him. that's why I made my second point "And if Kane's production is good enough to get us into the playoffs, then we won't be sellers at the deadline anyways and we lose him for nothing at the end of the year." I say making the playoffs and losing Kane isn't worth it. All I'm saying is don't take nothing for him. This terrible fear of losing guys for nothing is overblown. We love prospects and picks because they're shiny objects down the road, but if you're telling me the deal is a 2nd and Bailey 2.0 I'd rather keep the guy I know can play. A second round pick has about a 25% chance of playing the equivilent of 2 NHL seasons (https://www.milehighhockey.com/2014/7/23/5931789/draft-percentages) EVER. Draft picks, outside of the top 10 or so, take what, 2-5 years before they make team full time? Bailey is good; is he a top-6 winger in the next 2 years? The next 5? No idea. Kane is a very good player, he can score and skate. I'd rather get one year out of that guy than the possibility of one of those two players turning into half of him in 2+ years. But that's just my opinion. THE ACTUAL PRICE ISN'T EVEN MY POINT. All I want is for Jbot to set a price in his head and try to go get it. If you don't, fine, take the 3/4 of a year that you get out of him, then either trade him at the deadline or lose him for, yes, nothing. Don't just take a 4th rounder and a 3rd rate goalie prospect because "Welp, it was the best we can get". With that, I've made my point as far as I think I need to, I'll read all responses by I don't think I can explain my position any further. Edited June 21, 2017 by sabills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 As someone who doesn't want to trade Kane, but thinks he will be traded, here's something that has me questioning my conclusions: Nathan Beaulieu appears to be the same type of entitled party boy Kane is, up to and including an arrest. Am I overrating the Pegula message about character? Yes. I think it is something they want in their coaches and managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2017 All I'm saying is don't take nothing for him. This terrible fear of losing guys for nothing is overblown. We love prospects and picks because they're shiny objects down the road, but if you're telling me the deal is a 2nd and Bailey 2.0 I'd rather keep the guy I know can play. A second round pick has about a 25% chance of playing the equivilent of 2 NHL seasons (https://www.milehighhockey.com/2014/7/23/5931789/draft-percentages) EVER. Draft picks, outside of the top 10 or so, take what, 2-5 years before they make team full time? Bailey is good; is he a top-6 winger in the next 2 years? The next 5? No idea. Kane is a very good player, he can score and skate. I'd rather get one year out of that guy than the possibility of one of those two players turning into half of him in 2+ years. But that's just my opinion. THE ACTUAL PRICE ISN'T EVEN MY POINT. All I want is for Jbot to set a price in his head and try to go get it. If you don't, fine, take the 3/4 of a year that you get out of him, then either trade him at the deadline or lose him for, yes, nothing. Don't just take a 4th rounder and a 3rd rate goalie prospect because "Welp, it was the best we can get". With that, I've made my point as far as I think I need to, I'll read all responses by I don't think I can explain my position any further. I agree. We need to start making playoff runs now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 A) You have no idea that that is true. But fine. B) He missed as many games as you are complaining about last year, and still led the team in scoring. I'm sorry, that's what he is. I'm not talking goals per game, or goals per minute, or 5v5 production, or some theoretical standard that we feel like holding him to; the man scored more goals than anyone else on the team. He gets that belt until he doesn't have it any more. C) This doesn't affect this year. I'm not trading him out of fear that he won't sign. Guys don't re-sign all the time. You don't always HAVE to trade them. This is all mostly besides the point. I'm not taking a bag of pucks for him just because he MIGHT leave NEXT year. And neither are you. Obviously there is a minimum price that you would accept. Would you rather have a 7th round pick, or Evander Kane for a year? How about a 2nd rounder vs. Kane for a year? A second and a D prospect or Kane for a year? A first by itself? There is a line, wherever you want to place it. and all I'm saying is to stick to that I think this season should be all about making the playoffs and that means if you can't get good value for Kane this summer, and are in playoff contention in March, you just keep him and see what your team can do. I agree. We need to start making playoff runs now. All of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 I am glad to see that more of this fanbase is embracing the idea that it is time to sweat wins and past time to sweat whether or not each player returns maximized value before moving on. And besides, nothing makes a player sign on for more time lile winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Your assum8ng all they will get is picks and developing prospects for him, which is true of they wait til the deadline to make a deal for him as a rental, but now is the time that hockey trades are made, so he can, and if dealt, most likely would be for a good defensemen who can step in and play now, not a pick or prospect. Losing him for nothing is not good assert management. And no one said that they can't replace Kane with another trade or through FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Your assum8ng all they will get is picks and developing prospects for him, which is true of they wait til the deadline to make a deal for him as a rental, but now is the time that hockey trades are made, so he can, and if dealt, most likely would be for a good defensemen who can step in and play now, not a pick or prospect. Losing him for nothing is not good assert management. And no one said that they can't replace Kane with another trade or through FA. the market that's been set seems to suggest otherwise. taylor hall was needed to acquire adam larsson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Your assum8ng all they will get is picks and developing prospects for him, which is true of they wait til the deadline to make a deal for him as a rental, but now is the time that hockey trades are made, so he can, and if dealt, most likely would be for a good defensemen who can step in and play now, not a pick or prospect. Losing him for nothing is not good assert management. And no one said that they can't replace Kane with another trade or through FA. I went with that because thats what was suggested above. I would absolutely trade him for a top-pair defensemen, even a top-4. I don't think he'll garnish that much, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 I went with that because thats what was suggested above. I would absolutely trade him for a top-pair defensemen, even a top-4. I don't think he'll garnish that much, though. I would sh1t in, and then eat, my hat if Evander Kane were to fetch a good top-4 d-man. He could conceivably be part of a package for that sort of player, I suppose. But if he were actually worth that much, he'd have already been dealt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Your assum8ng all they will get is picks and developing prospects for him, which is true of they wait til the deadline to make a deal for him as a rental, but now is the time that hockey trades are made, so he can, and if dealt, most likely would be for a good defensemen who can step in and play now, not a pick or prospect. Losing him for nothing is not good assert management. And no one said that they can't replace Kane with another trade or through FA. If they trade him for a top 4 defender sure but outside of that meh. Make the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Our D at the moment is McCabe - Ristolainen Beaulieu - Antipin Guhle - Bogosian Gorges unless you want Guhle in the AHL, you don't trade kane for a top 4 defenseman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Our D at the moment is McCabe - Ristolainen Beaulieu - Antipin Guhle - Bogosian Gorges unless you want Guhle in the AHL, you don't trade kane for a top 4 defenseman. yes, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Agreed, the AHL is exactly where I want Guhle. Plus, there is no guarantee that any of Antipin, Guhle, or Beaulieu work out. We need to go get another top 4 guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Our D at the moment is McCabe - Ristolainen Beaulieu - Antipin Guhle - Bogosian Gorges unless you want Guhle in the AHL, you don't trade kane for a top 4 defenseman. I'd rather get to a point where we let our prospects marinate in the AHL too long rather than rush them to fill holes. Agreed, the AHL is exactly where I want Guhle. Plus, there is no guarantee that any of Antipin, Guhle, or Beaulieu work out. We need to go get another top 4 guy :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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