Reinhart Dressed and Benched; Late to Meeting

[bunomatic]

Was Terry involved ?  ;)

[Eleven]

Oh we're definitely bored.

 

I'm bored and they're not even playing at the moment.

[North Buffalo]

Yo traffic gets me occasionaly, youve never lived in NYC or DC then. I get off 1 shift at 8a and my next one starts 5 miles away at 8:30, my bosses know and i call if its backed up. Worst bkup took 2 hours so pi you really are off base. Traffic is what it is and If you were my boss I'd quit but not without making sure you didnt last either. Dont mess with my goaltender or hit me in the head or there will be consequences. Im a vindictive SOB.

[Georgia Blizzard]

What if you are 8 minutes late?  I mean it's close right?  The punishment was stated.  Every player knew it.  He got caught up in it.  Period.  If you want to argue that missing a game should not be the penalty that's fine but stop acting like it wasn't warranted in this situation.  At the time of the infraction the team policy was CLEARLY if you are late, you miss a game.  It was so clear that it was stated only 24 hours earlier.

 

 

The problem with black and white rules is that people want to try and bend them.  They work just fine but people love to bitch and not hold themselves accountable for breaking the "black and white" rule. Take speeding for example.  If you get pulled over for going 1 mph over the speed limit there is no arguing what you were not speeding.  You might say, it's so hard to tell, I mean what's the difference.  Well, the difference is that rather than push your speed right to the absolute limit you could drive 1mph under to giver yourself a buffer.  Unfortunately most people aren't wired that way and they'd rather argue that "it's just 1 mph over".  Now, we all know that rarely does it happen that you get pulled over for 1mph over... but if you want to test the theory drive through Franklinville, NY and argue with the kind police officer when he pulls you over.

 

Finally, I wholeheartedly disagree with this making the Sabres look like a second rate organization but I do fully agree that you don't get it.

 

 

 

The way I read his comments is that he thinks the punishment is dumb but he accepts that he broke the rule.  Every player is going to lobby them to let it slide.  However, he sees himself as a team guy and I think he wanted to be on the bench to support his team and show them that he was a team player. I dislike this attention to detail in this situation and for his willingness to let it slide but I applaud him owning it and wanting to demonstrate to his teammates that he's there for them.

 

This is not about following the rules so much as doing what it takes to win. Cutting corners and lowering expectations is never the way to win or succeed.  I have taught my kids one mantra "If you cheat on the ice, you get beat on the ice."  It holds true on the ice and off.  If the drill says you skate to the line you don't skate to within 2 feet of the line, you skate to the line.  Those who want to say it was "close enough" can also use that excuse when they don't backcheck hard enough and were "close enough" that they couldn't get a stick on the guy who just put the puck in the net.

 

"Close enough" sucks.  I could say some crap about hand grenades here.

 

 

It was executed perfectly.  As I said, based on Reinhart's latest comments I believe he wanted to be on the bench supporting his teammates.

 

 

I think Jack and Dan butt heads and I am sure it's both on the ice and off the ice stuff.  However, I don't think Gio is just trying to keep his career alive.  You are talking about a guy who has been the Captain of two franchises, one of them being THE iconic franchise of the NHL.  He's a leader and he's been around some unbelievable talent.  He's WON and he know's what it takes to WIN.  

 

 

If he's an adult then why was he late?  Reinhart was late, he cost the team 2 points (using your point).  I would say that holding the players accountable is treating the players like responsible adults.  Here's your schedule, follow it.  Kids are more apt to get a slide from the rules than adults.

 

 

Overall I am going to leave it at this.  There is a camp in here that wants to make excuses for the "star" players. You have placed the blame on the coach, the GM, and questioned everything but the player himself.  Is there no personal accountability in your world? Do you make excuses for everything when you feel something is "dumb"?

 

That's a huge problem with society today.  I don't want to do this because I think it's stupid or I shouldn't have to.  You don't have to do it, but you don't get an exemption from the ramifications.

 

What I want on a team are players who are always striving to perfection.  It's not achievable but if you create a culture where being 5 minutes late is accepted then you will soon have all players showing up 5 minutes late.  Then it will be 10 minutes late because hey.. what's 5 minutes right?  You are setting the bar lower rather than higher.  You are holding yourself less accountable.

 

Our society does this all the time.  "Oh this is hard?  Let's lower the standards.  There you are."  Precious snowflake.  Own your damn mistakes, own your lack of execution.

 

I am going to leave one thing here.  I've been coaching awhile and last year we used this video as a demonstration for the kids.  I think it holds true to a lot of things.

 

 

And this year's video, which I just watched.  Hell you can watch them all on YouTube.  That's a culture of winning.

 

 

This is the problem with black & white rules -- 

 

What if, Lehner and Nilsson overslept and were both 5 minutes late to morning stretch ?

 

What if, Risto, McCabe, Bogo and Kuli car pooled to rink and got flat tire and were 5 minutes late ?

 

The world isn't black & white,people want to make it that way, it isn't, life isn't, that's why discretion is permitted in judicial system and in virtually every professional workplace.

 

Solution in this case is simple: SCRATCH HIM ON SUNDAY !!

Edited March 31, 2017 by Georgia Blizzard

[SwampD]

I like that we have this long break after the Florida game. It gives Samson even longer to think about his transgression.

[pi2000]

That fact that one of his teammates called him and told him there was a team stretch, and he was only 5-6 minutes late tells me he was ready to go, and in his room waiting it out. How early would you show up for a team stretch? And since McCabe called him, I see that as a tight team... was McCabe penalized for being on his phone during the team stretch?

 

You want black and white with no exceptions, and just like officiating, you cannot have that. There is too much gray area. I mentioned in my above post -- where do you draw the line between legit and a poor excuse. You say no to traffic being a reason. Is there any legit reason to being late?

 

And Sam strikes me as being a mature young man. I would see him as being the guy that would call to say he's running late. I think he really just screwed up on the time. (I will see it's hard to confuse 10:30 and 11:00 -- they don't really look the same, but as stated earlier, who arranges the team schedule via text messages???)

 

 

McCabe called him as it was starting so probably a minute or two before 10:30.    If you're ready to go, does it take 7-8 minutes to get to a different area of a hotel?   No.

 

Is there any legit reason to being late?  For a professional person who's profession is to be punctual... then no.    If there is some extenuating circumstance that is out of your control then you call ahead/communicate before the scheduled time and inform whoever that you need to re-schedule and you won't make the appointment.    Like I tell my kids.. ignorance is not an excuse.    

 

You know Samson personally?   I only know him from interviews and I think he's a good kid, afterall he was team captain of his junior squad in Kootenay so his tardiness comes as a surprise to me... which makes me think we're not being told the whole truth. 

Yo traffic gets me occasionaly, youve never lived in NYC or DC then. I get off 1 shift at 8a and my next one starts 5 miles away at 8:30, my bosses know and i call if its backed up. Worst bkup took 2 hours so pi you really are off base. Traffic is what it is and If you were my boss I'd quit but not without making sure you didnt last either. Dont mess with my goaltender or hit me in the head or there will be consequences. Im a vindictive SOB.

 

You said it yourself, you know what time you're supposed to be there and you communicate clearly if there is some uncontrollable circumstance (in this case traffic) that will prevent from being there on time.   

 

Samson used ignorance as an excuse, which is, inexcusable IMO.    He has no other job other than to be there on time, no traffic in the way, no previous obligations that would prevent him from being there at 10 for an event at 10:30.   Next time I hope he plans on being there 30 minutes ahead of time, and verifies the schedule.   That's the lesson here.    These guys all stay at the same hotel, they don't have to commute, they don't need to shower get dressed, get the kids off to school, make breakfast, put gas in the car, etc..... the only thing is be in a certain area of the hotel at a certain time, that's it, there's no excuse in that case other than a fire in your hotel room, or the elevator gets stuck, or something out of your control.   This is why you plan on being there at least 15-30 min early to assure that only an act of God could stop you from being there on time because as Gio said, they're trying to build a culture.    I said it from day one of the season... there's too much of a losing culture on this team where one thing doesn't go right and they collapse mentally because they're expectations are so low.   The only way to change that is to set higher expectations and that starts off the ice.

Edited March 31, 2017 by pi2000

[nfreeman]

I kept reading this thread, semi-afraid it would go off the rails, and...nothing really happened (although Smarm's name change was kinda clever).

 

The dog days have begun, and we have 3 freaking months until the draft.

 

Thanks DDB. Great job.

 

(Although I'm fine with the suspension.)

[PASabreFan]

You know Samson personally?   I only know him from interviews and I think he's a good kid, afterall he was team captain of his junior squad in Kootenay so his tardiness comes as a surprise to me... which makes me think we're not being told the whole truth.

Ain't that the truth. It's like if you tell your teenager if he drinks from the milk carton one more time, he's losing his license for a year and not going to the spring cotillion (prom in the U.S., I believe). A whole helluva lot led up to that craziness.

[North Buffalo]

McCabe called him as it was starting so probably a minute or two before 10:30.    If you're ready to go, does it take 7-8 minutes to get to a different area of a hotel?   No.

 

Is there any legit reason to being late?  For a professional person who's profession is to be punctual... then no.    If there is some extenuating circumstance that is out of your control then you call ahead/communicate before the scheduled time and inform whoever that you need to re-schedule and you won't make the appointment.    Like I tell my kids.. ignorance is not an excuse.    

 

You know Samson personally?   I only know him from interviews and I think he's a good kid, afterall he was team captain of his junior squad in Kootenay so his tardiness comes as a surprise to me... which makes me think we're not being told the whole truth. 

 

You said it yourself, you know what time you're supposed to be there and you communicate clearly if there is some uncontrollable circumstance (in this case traffic) that will prevent from being there on time.   

 

Samson used ignorance as an excuse, which is, inexcusable IMO.    He has no other job other than to be there on time, no traffic in the way, no previous obligations that would prevent him from being there at 10 for an event at 10:30.   Next time I hope he plans on being there 30 minutes ahead of time, and verifies the schedule.   That's the lesson here.

 

The lesson I dont think is in dispute, the punishment is and how it was handled poorely. Sam screwed up, in this case its like attacking your house carpenter ant problem by using dynamite. That was what the tank was for....

[TrueBlueGED]

Unsurprisingly, I find Pi's demands for perfection to be wholly unreasonable and quite over the top. One can be late, by five minutes, one time, and not have it reflect upon their character or level of professionalism. Holy moly.

[WildCard]

Unsurprisingly, I find Pi's demands for perfection to be wholly unreasonable and quite over the top. One can be late, by five minutes, one time, and not have it reflect upon their character or level of professionalism. Holy moly.

You should check out the Fire Byslma thread :lol:

[LTS]

If im 8 min late im docked 15 min, not the whole fin shift. Again rules and structure need some flexibilty to fit circumstances. Yes punish him but not abitrary and capricious punishment.

 

Let me put it another way.. why is the limit not 6 minutes then?  The punishment was not arbitrary it was mandated by rule that was stated and clarified 24 hours earlier.  The reason they clarified the rule was because they realized it did not apply evenly.  For example, (and Murray said as much) some 4th liner who never sees special teams would never experience repercussions for being late.  That's not fair to everyone, so to be fair, if ANYONE is late they sit.

 

1) Insubordination requires intent. Do you honestly think he woke up saying "This rule is dumb. I'm going to break it on purpose! That'll show em!"

 

2) "Sole purpose in life." My eyes have officially rolled so far back into my skull, I may never see again.

 

I hope he did not, but given the "misread a text" seems a bit odd one wonders if he didn't decide to test their commitment.  Of course imagine the media frenzy if Reinhart says, "I wanted to see if they were serious.".  So, it comes out as "I misread a text" 

 

It is their sole purpose in life.  Look at the amount of training these guys put in all year long.  If it was not their sole purpose (okay, yes, they have some other purposes day to day) they would not succeed as hockey players.  We've all seen players who show up to camp out of shape...

 

 

This is the problem with black & white rules -- 

 

What if, Lehner and Nilsson overslept and were both 5 minutes late to morning stretch ?

 

What if, Risto, McCabe, Bogo and Kuli car pooled to rink and got flat tire and were 5 minutes late ?

 

The world isn't black & white,people want to make it that way, it isn't, life isn't, that's why discretion is permitted in judicial system and in virtually every professional workplace.

 

Solution in this case is simple: SCRATCH HIM ON SUNDAY !!

 

For what it's worth, if you read Harrington's article with Murray he said that he was there and if there was an injury they would have put him in.  You can ask what if all day long and eventually find something that requires you to break the rules.  That doesn't mean you don't create them and you don't abide by them except in extreme circumstance.

 

Discretion is used.. but it must be used judiciously.  Why would you not sit Reinhart for the game, because the team would have to skate with 17 skaters?  They've done that before.. any time someone gets injured for a game they skate 17.  Why don't the rules allow the teams to dress an alternate so in the event of injury (which is rarely caused by the player who gets injured) they can put him in?  It would be fair right?  The other team injured one of our players and now we're shorthanded.  It seems like that would be a good rule to put in place.  It would be more fair right?

 

Point is, teams play with a short bench all the time because of injury, ejections, and other penalties.  They live.  They were not in danger of not having enough players to play the game.  You're just upset that they have a rule that forces a guy to miss a game if he can't follow the rules.  It's too bad.  Reinhart broke the rules and put his team in that position. 

 

You clearly don't accept that.  So be it.

[Drunkard]

Unsurprisingly, I find Pi's demands for perfection to be wholly unreasonable and quite over the top. One can be late, by five minutes, one time, and not have it reflect upon their character or level of professionalism. Holy moly.

 

To be fair, it probably has a lot to do with his hero worship of Matt Moulson. The guy is so slow he has to leave early for everything or he'd be perpetually late.

[pi2000]

Unsurprisingly, I find Pi's demands for perfection to be wholly unreasonable and quite over the top. One can be late, by five minutes, one time, and not have it reflect upon their character or level of professionalism. Holy moly.

 

If I'm a head coach and I'm hell bent on winning a Cup, I don't give out any hall passes, sorry charlie... this isn't grade school where kids are learning about responsibilities.   This is the highest level of the profession.    That being late one time, etc.. crap needs to get taught in juniors, minor league, etc..  if you're in the NHL I'm not giving you any slack. 

[TrueBlueGED]

If I'm a head coach and I'm hell bent on winning a Cup, I don't give out any hall passes, sorry charlie... this isn't grade school where kids are learning about responsibilities. This is the highest level of the profession. That being late one time, etc.. crap needs to get taught in juniors, minor league, etc.. if you're in the NHL I'm not giving you any slack.

It's not about cutting him slack. Or making an exception for him. I'm simply saying a minor mistake can be made without it meaning the guy doesn't take his job seriously enough, or needs to get his together.

[Randall Flagg]

It's not about cutting him slack. Or making an exception for him. I'm simply saying a minor mistake can be made without it meaning the guy doesn't take his job seriously enough, or needs to get his ###### together.

You hush. Also, Auston Matthews going pro a year early instead of going to the NCAA had nothing to do with preparation against men which allowed him to score 40 his rookie season, it's all because he's selfish and lacks character.

[Trettioåtta]

Personally I think focusing on the off ice product whilst the on ice one goes off the rails is a misguided attempt at success. A team of soldiers may beat any NHL roster for professionalism and punctuality, but I don't think they'll be wearing too many rings on their fingers.

[pi2000]

Personally I think focusing on the off ice product whilst the on ice one goes off the rails is a misguided attempt at success. A team of soldiers may beat any NHL roster for professionalism and punctuality, but I don't think they'll be wearing too many rings on their fingers.

 

Being professional/punctual and winning hockey games are not mutually exclusive.    

 

That said, show me a successful hockey franchise that cuts players slack for showing up late to team events... you can't.

[Trettioåtta]

Being professional/punctual and winning hockey games are not mutually exclusive.    

 

That said, show me a successful hockey franchise that cuts players slack for showing up late to team events... you can't.

 

You're arguing a straw man. No one is saying Sam should have not been punished. We are saying the punishment should have been delayed for a game so a) the team/chance of winning are not largely impacted, b) it is not as humiliating for him. You may believe that overly punishing someone for small infractions encourages them to never make them again, but human psychology shows it makes them resentful and less engaged.

[pi2000]

You're arguing a straw man. No one is saying Sam should have not been punished. We are saying the punishment should have been delayed for a game so a) the team/chance of winning are not largely impacted, b) it is not as humiliating for him. You may believe that overly punishing someone for small infractions encourages them to never make them again, but human psychology shows it makes them resentful and less engaged.

 

Like Gio said, it's good for the team.   It sets the bar and is a lesson for everyone.   Sure maybe it was a harsh punishment for Samson and that sucks for him.    But I guarantee you other players took notice and nobody will make that mistake again.... which is a good thing.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I think if the punishment was postponed it would not have the same impact.

 

Sam and other players would see, well rules are rules, but only some of the time, so maybe I'll take my chances.

[Trettioåtta]

Like Gio said, it's good for the team.   It sets the bar and is a lesson for everyone.   Sure maybe it was a harsh punishment for Samson and that sucks for him.    But I guarantee you other players took notice and nobody will make that mistake again.... which is a good thing.

 

So could I have a yes and no to the following questions:

 

Next year we are in game 7 of the Stanley cup finals. Eichel appears 5 minutes late for the morning stretch.

1) Should he be benched?

2) Do you think the Sabres do bench him?

I think if the punishment was postponed it would not have the same impact.

 

Sam and other players would see, well rules are rules, but only some of the time, so maybe I'll take my chances.

 

He isn't a dog. He won't think he has got away with it and then be confused when he is in the press box on Sunday. It would show that the team comes above any one player at all times, but that doesn't mean you will avoid doing penance for your crime.

[Georgia Blizzard]

Let me put it another way.. why is the limit not 6 minutes then?  The punishment was not arbitrary it was mandated by rule that was stated and clarified 24 hours earlier.  The reason they clarified the rule was because they realized it did not apply evenly.  For example, (and Murray said as much) some 4th liner who never sees special teams would never experience repercussions for being late.  That's not fair to everyone, so to be fair, if ANYONE is late they sit.

 

 

I hope he did not, but given the "misread a text" seems a bit odd one wonders if he didn't decide to test their commitment.  Of course imagine the media frenzy if Reinhart says, "I wanted to see if they were serious.".  So, it comes out as "I misread a text" 

 

It is their sole purpose in life.  Look at the amount of training these guys put in all year long.  If it was not their sole purpose (okay, yes, they have some other purposes day to day) they would not succeed as hockey players.  We've all seen players who show up to camp out of shape...

 

 

 

For what it's worth, if you read Harrington's article with Murray he said that he was there and if there was an injury they would have put him in.  You can ask what if all day long and eventually find something that requires you to break the rules.  That doesn't mean you don't create them and you don't abide by them except in extreme circumstance.

 

Discretion is used.. but it must be used judiciously.  Why would you not sit Reinhart for the game, because the team would have to skate with 17 skaters?  They've done that before.. any time someone gets injured for a game they skate 17.  Why don't the rules allow the teams to dress an alternate so in the event of injury (which is rarely caused by the player who gets injured) they can put him in?  It would be fair right?  The other team injured one of our players and now we're shorthanded.  It seems like that would be a good rule to put in place.  It would be more fair right?

 

Point is, teams play with a short bench all the time because of injury, ejections, and other penalties.  They live.  They were not in danger of not having enough players to play the game.  You're just upset that they have a rule that forces a guy to miss a game if he can't follow the rules.  It's too bad.  Reinhart broke the rules and put his team in that position. 

 

You clearly don't accept that.  So be it.

 

 

I was going to let your post go until your last couple of sentences.

 

You are misrepresenting my views, if the rule is a game suspension, so be it.  I wouldn't make it that severe if I was HC/GM, but, it is what it is.

 

My issue, is applying discretion and flexibility and use some common sense and judgment and delay punishment until Sunday when you can dress/skate 18 and have Reinhart sit in press box.

 

Not sure why you can't respond to that specific argument instead of making up a different one.

[pi2000]

So could I have a yes and no to the following questions:

 

Next year we are in game 7 of the Stanley cup finals. Eichel appears 5 minutes late for the morning stretch.

1) Should he be benched?

2) Do you think the Sabres do bench him?

 

That's not going to happen because of the lesson learned from Samson's incident. 

 

That said, since you're talking hypotheticals... consider there are infinite parallel universes (there are) and in at least one of those universes Eichel shows up late for the morning stretch on game day before game 7 of the Cup Finals.

 

1) Yes, he should be benched.

2) Yes, well, in atleast one of those universes he's benched (and I'm not sure which of those universes you and I live in, so I can't say for sure)

Edited March 31, 2017 by pi2000

[Trettioåtta]

That's not going to happen because of the lesson learned from Samson's incident. 

 

That said, since you're talking hypotheticals... consider there are infinite parallel universes (there are) and in at least one of those universes Eichel shows up late for the morning stretch on game day before game 7 of the Cup Finals.

 

1) Yes, he should be benched.

2) Yes, well, in atleast one of those universes he's benched.

 

Out of interest, how is your career in politics going?