GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[pi2000]

I'm positive it's happened before, and not just in Slapshot.

GMTM met with the coaches first, then told them he was going to meet with the players, then immediately walked in to the room.

 

If you watch the post-deadline presser then listen to the interview with GR the next day, Murray's demeanour is night and day. He had to get stuff off his chest and he did. The GR interview apparently happened right after his speech to the players.

 

The way the players are talking about it, Murray's speech was either truly epic, or simply something they haven't heard from their head coach all season. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

It's funny, but wasn't DD the guy who guided us to a 27 pt improvement last season?  Isn't DD's coaching staff the guys who developed our top flight PP and improved our goaltending?  Haven't most of our young players continued to improve under DD's guidance as opposed to the Ruff era where young kids burst on the scene only to regress year after year.  Seriously, aren't McCabe, Risto, Foligno, Reinhart, and Eichel better players today then when they got here?

 

GMTM just admitted that he is at fault for the defense.  What coach can overcome a defense that is so slow, injured and bad at clearing the zone?  I'm not saying that DD is blameless, but he doesn't create the roster, GMTM does.  DD can only coach what he has. 

 

This argument is moot anyway.  DD will be the coach next season.

[dudacek]

It's funny, but wasn't DD the guy who guided us to a 27 pt improvement last season?  Isn't DD's coaching staff the guys who developed our top flight PP and improved our goaltending?  Haven't most of our young players continued to improve under DD's guidance as opposed to the Ruff era where young kids burst on the scene only to regress year after year.  Seriously, aren't McCabe, Risto, Foligno, Reinhart, and Eichel better players today then when they got here?

 

GMTM just admitted that he is at fault for the defense.  What coach can overcome a defense that is so slow, injured and bad at clearing the zone?  I'm not saying that DD is blameless, but he doesn't create the roster, GMTM does.  DD can only coach what he has. 

 

This argument is moot anyway.  DD will be the coach next season.

Or maybe all the good players GMTM acquired is the reason for the improvement, in spite of the way the team has been coached?

 

(By the way Yse, even though I frequently disagree with you, I am thoroughly enjoying the debate)

[TrueBlueGED]

It's funny, but wasn't DD the guy who guided us to a 27 pt improvement last season? Isn't DD's coaching staff the guys who developed our top flight PP and improved our goaltending? Haven't most of our young players continued to improve under DD's guidance as opposed to the Ruff era where young kids burst on the scene only to regress year after year. Seriously, aren't McCabe, Risto, Foligno, Reinhart, and Eichel better players today then when they got here?

 

GMTM just admitted that he is at fault for the defense. What coach can overcome a defense that is so slow, injured and bad at clearing the zone? I'm not saying that DD is blameless, but he doesn't create the roster, GMTM does. DD can only coach what he has.

 

This argument is moot anyway. DD will be the coach next season.

The argument against Bylsma isn't that he should have this roster competing for a Cup, it's that he's not properly utilizing and getting the most out of what he has to work with.

[pi2000]

The argument against Bylsma isn't that he should have this roster competing for a Cup, it's that he's not properly utilizing and getting the most out of what he has to work with.

 

It's funny, but wasn't DD the guy who guided us to a 27 pt improvement last season?  Isn't DD's coaching staff the guys who developed our top flight PP and improved our goaltending?  Haven't most of our young players continued to improve under DD's guidance as opposed to the Ruff era where young kids burst on the scene only to regress year after year.  Seriously, aren't McCabe, Risto, Foligno, Reinhart, and Eichel better players today then when they got here?

 

GMTM just admitted that he is at fault for the defense.  What coach can overcome a defense that is so slow, injured and bad at clearing the zone?  I'm not saying that DD is blameless, but he doesn't create the roster, GMTM does.  DD can only coach what he has. 

 

This argument is moot anyway.  DD will be the coach next season.

 

It's the inconsistency that's the issue.   Some nights they look great, they play hard and smart for a few games, then look completely uninspired for 2-3 games, don't show up for periods, just the body language at times look they're just going through the motions.     That's on Bylsma to get them playing at a consistent level game in and game out, which he hasn't been able to do for 2 seasons in a row now.     They haven't had a 4 game winning streak in 5 years or something ridiculous like that.

[WildCard]

The argument against Bylsma isn't that he should have this roster competing for a Cup, it's that he's not properly utilizing and getting the most out of what he has to work with.

I don't understand why this has to be repeated so many times. If someone can refute this, I'd love it. But all that ever happens is recycling the same points anti-Byldma camps have already made

[GASabresIUFAN]

Or maybe all the good players GMTM acquired is the reason for the improvement, in spite of the way the team has been coached?

 

(By the way Yse, even though I frequently disagree with you, I am thoroughly enjoying the debate)

I like debating with you as well.  But we've seen that the D that GMTM hired is crap.  

 

The argument against Bylsma isn't that he should have this roster competing for a Cup, it's that he's not properly utilizing and getting the most out of what he has to work with.

How do better utilize players like Gorges, Bogo and Kulikov who are having career worst years?  We saw Bogo excel in DD's system last year in the second half, so we at least know he can succeed in it.  And if the system is so bad, why are the kids continuing to improve.  If the utilization was so bad, the kids would be getting worse not better.

 

It's the inconsistency that's the issue.   Some nights they look great, they play hard and smart for a few games, then look completely uninspired for 2-3 games, don't show up for periods, just the body language at times look they're just going through the motions.     That's on Bylsma to get them playing at a consistent level game in and game out, which he hasn't been able to do for 2 seasons in a row now.     They haven't had a 4 game winning streak in 5 years or something ridiculous like that.

Is that coaching or a young team learning to play together?

Edited March 3, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[MattPie]

I like debating with you as well.  But we've seen that the D that GMTM hired is crap.  

 

How do better utilize players like Gorges, Bogo and Kulikov who are having career worst years?  We saw Bogo excel in DD's system last year in the second half, so we at least know he can succeed in it.  And if the system is so bad, why are the kids continuing to improve.  If the utilization was so bad, the kids would be getting worse not better.

 

Is that coaching or a young team learning to play together?

 

I don't watch Toronto much, but is the Sabres D that much worse? Toronto is in a better position than the Sabres and I don't think it's that they have a clearly better team than Buffalo. How is that not on the coach?

[WildCard]

The kids are improving? Even if they are, which I don't think is true, then it's because they were rookies last year and it was inevitable

[WildCard]

I don't watch Toronto much, but is the Sabres D that much worse? Toronto is in a better position than the Sabres and I don't think it's that they have a clearly better team than Buffalo. How is that not on the coach?

Ding ding ding. Toronto is a clear comparable

[Mustache of God]

I don't watch Toronto much, but is the Sabres D that much worse? Toronto is in a better position than the Sabres and I don't think it's that they have a clearly better team than Buffalo. How is that not on the coach?

 

To be fair, if Matthews missed the first ~20 games a la Eichel, they wouldn't be where they are now in the standings.

[dudacek]

The kids are clearly improving.

 

Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, McCabe, (and from limited viewings) Baptiste, Carrier, Bailey and ERod all look noticeably better than last year. Fasching has been hurt and Ullmark apparently has been solid down in Rochester.

Only pro prospect to regress is Nelson, and I kinda think last year was an illusion anyway.

 

It's ne of the reasons why I'm not as down on the team and GMTM as some seem to be.

[WildCard]

The kids are clearly improving.

 

Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, McCabe, (and from limited viewings) Baptiste, Carrier, Bailey and ERod all look noticeably better than last year. Fasching has been hurt and Ullmark apparently has been solid down in Rochester.

Only pro prospect to regress is Nelson, and I kinda think last year was an illusion anyway.

 

It's ne of the reasons why I'm not as down on the team and GMTM as some seem to be.

Carrier, Fasching Bailey, and Erod spent most of their season away from Byslma. So I'm not surprised they improved

 

McCabe and Eichel have improved. But I think that's just experience, not Dan. I believe it would have happened under any coach

[sabills]

Carrier, Fasching Bailey, and Erod spent most of their season away from Byslma. So I'm not surprised they improved

 

McCabe and Eichel have improved. But I think that's just experience, not Dan. I believe it would have happened under any coach

 

Listen, I'm all aboard the fire DD train, but there's no way we can make any sort of educated assumptions about whether he has or hasn't helped the development of Jake McCabe. Jake McCabe couldn't tell you. Lets not go too far down the rabbit hole, here.

Edited March 3, 2017 by sabills

[dudacek]

Listen, I'm all aboard the fire DD train, but there's no way we can make any sort of educated assumptions about whether he has or hasn't helped the development of Jake McCabe. Jake McCabe couldn't tell you. Lets not go to far down the rabbit hole, here.

I don't have enough information for a strong opinion on this, but it is entirely possible for Dan to be good at helping the kids develop and bad at leadership, game planning and/or player utilization.

 

My impression is he's actually he's dedicated and knowledgeable, he just doesn't seem very adaptable or inspirational. He fails to realize that he is working with people, not programmable robots.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

I think Babcock is a better coach then DD, but the defense is better simply because it has been healthier (5 players with 55 or more games played on D) and therefore more consistent.  I also think they have been better as a group supporting the offense, although admittedly the rookie Zaitsev and Reilly are awful defensively.  

 

Compare Zaitsev and Reilly vs Kulikov and Bogosian

Z 63g, 3g 25a, 28 pts -15

R 57g 3g, 19a, 22pts -18

 

vs

 

B 38g, 1g, 6a 7pts -14

K 38g 1g, 1a, 2pts -17

 

Which would you rather have, 2 young kids putting up points who are learning on the fly, or 2 vets who don'y help the offense and are crap defensively.  I know what I'd choose.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

I think that a coaching change is in order, but we have to find the right coach and not another stop gap coach........Sadly there are not many out there that have the skills that this young team needs

[MattPie]

I think Babcock is a better coach then DD, but the defense is better simply because it has been healthier (5 players with 55 or more games played on D) and therefore more consistent.  I also think they have been better as a group supporting the offense, although admittedly the rookie Zaitsev and Reilly are awful defensively.  

 

Compare Zaitsev and Reilly vs Kulikov and Bogosian

Z 63g, 3g 25a, 28 pts -15

R 57g 3g, 19a, 22pts -18

 

vs

 

B 38g, 1g, 6a 7pts -14

K 38g 1g, 1a, 2pts -17

 

Which would you rather have, 2 young kids putting up points who are learning on the fly, or 2 vets who don'y help the offense and are crap defensively.  I know what I'd choose.

 

Not enough data. Toronto has scored 30 more goals than Buffalo this season, and is just barely positive for goal diff. Comparing D (or any skater) on raw points between teams is folly. You simply cannot say player A, if transported to team B would keep the same stat line. I'll be so bold to say that Bogo and Kulikov's stat lines be closer to their Toronto counterparts than their current stat lines in Buffalo if they magically switched. Babcock plays a more aggressive game that emphasizes offense from the D. HHDCRGDDB simply does not; D are expected to play safe and make sure there's not odd-man rushes the other way.

Edited March 3, 2017 by MattPie

[Doohickie]

The way the players are talking about it, Murray's speech was either truly epic, or simply something they haven't heard from their head coach all season. 

 

Or maybe he let them talk a little and when they said they hate DD, he might have said, "I know, and I'm working to fix that."

It's the inconsistency that's the issue.   Some nights they look great, they play hard and smart for a few games, then look completely uninspired for 2-3 games, don't show up for periods, just the body language at times look they're just going through the motions.     That's on Bylsma to get them playing at a consistent level game in and game out, which he hasn't been able to do for 2 seasons in a row now.     They haven't had a 4 game winning streak in 5 years or something ridiculous like that.

 

That could just as easily be due to being a young team as a coach.

How do better utilize players like Gorges, Bogo and Kulikov who are having career worst years?  We saw Bogo excel in DD's system last year in the second half, so we at least know he can succeed in it.  And if the system is so bad, why are the kids continuing to improve.  If the utilization was so bad, the kids would be getting worse not better.

 

Is that coaching or a young team learning to play together?

 

Put two of those three guys in the press box, put the other on the third pair, and play Falk and Fedun.

 

I think there is something to the "young team learning to play together" narrative.  Look at the improvement of our really young guys (Reinhart, Eichel, Baptiste, Bailey, ERod), but also consider the slightly older guys:  Girgensons finally seems to be clicking, Foligno is playing great (even when he's not scoring) and Kane is the sniper we dreamed he'd be.  Last year, earlier this year, that wasn't the case.

 

The new core is emerging and taking the reins, but they are still immature and by no means a finished product.  In saying that he needed to fix the D, GMTM tacitly endorsed the job the forward lines and goaltending is doing.  The right couple of D to replace our expiring free agents might make a world of difference to this team.

[Scottysabres]

I believe Bylsma will be the coach next season. Tim Murray will be the GM.

 

I'll leave Bylsma to his own devices.

As for Tim Murray addressing the team pre-game, if it had the desired effect of last nights end result, ok, great.

But is it sustainable? Did the speech go so far as to carry this team 18 more games and in to a playoff position? They are against the ropes with hope all but lost. Is there enough fire in the players to go on a home stretch run, let it all hang out and battle to the very end? Or was the inspiration a 1 or 2 off then back to complacency? Does Murray inspire ENOUGH? Was it a Herb Brooks moment?

 

The next 38 days will tell all.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Lucky E

[WildCard]

Dude had a pregame speech against the worst team in the league and it was still 3-3 late in the 3rd, at home. Helluva job there Murray

[Scottysabres]

Dude had a pregame speech against the worst team in the league and it was still 3-3 late in the 3rd, at home. Helluva job there Murray

So, what your saying is that it was a Mel Brooks speech.......:)

[R_Dudley]

I don't have enough information for a strong opinion on this, but it is entirely possible for Dan to be good at helping the kids develop and bad at leadership, game planning and/or player utilization.

My impression is he's actually he's dedicated and knowledgeable, he just doesn't seem very adaptable or inspirational. He fails to realize that he is working with people, not programmable robots.

This sounds very plausible based on how he presents himself in interviews and the press. Could be exactly why after a couple years with the pens kids he got replaced there.

I believe Bylsma will be the coach next season. Tim Murray will be the GM.

I'll leave Bylsma to his own devices.

As for Tim Murray addressing the team pre-game, if it had the desired effect of last nights end result, ok, great.

But is it sustainable? Did the speech go so far as to carry this team 18 more games and in to a playoff position? They are against the ropes with hope all but lost. Is there enough fire in the players to go on a home stretch run, let it all hang out and battle to the very end? Or was the inspiration a 1 or 2 off then back to complacency? Does Murray inspire ENOUGH? Was it a Herb Brooks moment?

The next 38 days will tell all.

Yep, watching Pens and Tampa right now and both those teams will test that theory real quick.

 

Ha, Herb brooks or Mel brooks, we shall see.

[Huckleberry]

Jesus Christ

 

Lighten up snowblack (sorry might be a bad translation of somethign we say around here, the opposite of snowwhite :p ) .

I'd like the happy d4rk back , the optmistic one.   I know we are not making the playoffs but this is a good thing.

[Thorny]

Interesting words from Murray on WGR

"The defence needs to get better and that's on me.

That's not on the players, it's not on the coaches, it's on me."

He basically said he wants a young guy - not necessarily a number one - who can play in the top four and all situations.

He thinks having him this year would have them in the playoffs.

It's the highest priority this summer.

Also strongly hinted he will be taking one in the draft by saying those guys generally go a little later than where he's been drafting in the first round; he's very happy with who he picked but there was an opportunity cost.

This is good news.

 

Carrier, Fasching Bailey, and Erod spent most of their season away from Byslma. So I'm not surprised they improved

 

McCabe and Eichel have improved. But I think that's just experience, not Dan. I believe it would have happened under any coach

Reinhart has certainly improved. Not saying Bylsma contributed to it, but Sam has assuredly gotten better. Like you said though, he was probably bound to given his age. But it doesn't always happen. Look at Larkin this year.