GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[Scottysabres]

I don't normally jump on a band wagon, but there are some clear indications this rebuild is going to take 5 years or so.

Which brings me to assessing General Manager Tim Murray.

 

It's clear the defense throughout the organization is deficient. And that is being kind I'm sure. No sign to date of successfully addressing the situation. And while that may change this deadline and coming off season, I'm not holding my breathe.

 

The forwards, let's be honest, are a wreck. Moulson, Ennis, Foligno, these guys offer little to nothing most nights. Deaf weight is dead weight. And what is worse, we may have a couple of these anchors next season as well.

 

Bylsma, while I put fault for lack of finish, focus and effort squarely on these professional players, I put the utter lack of addressing the problem and cutting it off before it becomes culture squarely on the coach and his staff.

 

The product I see from Rochester to Buffalo is the brain child of one Tim Murray. While I am fully aware that the rebuild is not complete and there will be significant transition yet again this off season, I am now becoming increasingly alarmed at the "Losing Culture" that the GM is directly responsible for due to his failures, specifically a balanced approach to include defensive strengthening in mind.

 

I am not impressed. As a matter of fact, I am disappointed in Tim Murray's performance to date.

While I realize Terry will stick with him, I am now to the point where I feel that would be a grave error.

[Robviously]

Yeah, but he looks like Dwight Shrute and sometimes he gets grumpy and mouths off so he must be an awesome GM.

[Thwomp!]

A few other concerns:

 

We're a cap team with nothing to show for it.  All that cap space we had during the tank is wasted.  We're saddled with several awful contracts.  All of which, except Ennis, are Murray's fault for signing them or taking them on.

 

Same for assets.  The team and pipeline should be in better shape with all the tank assets that were accumulated.

 

Murray tends to buy sky high (see assets).  I'd like to see him get better value in deals at least once in awhile.

 

He seems very content blaming the season on injuries and overly content with Dreary Dan.  We should have moved on from Dreary already.

 

His self serving reversal of the rebuild time frame that no one is even asking him about.  "Quick rebuild that's not going to take years" to "Patience and time" once it became apparent that his moves were not working out. 

[WildCard]

A few other concerns:

 

We're a cap team with nothing to show for it.  All that cap space we had during the tank is wasted.  We're saddled with several awful contracts.  All of which, except Ennis, are Murray's fault for signing them or taking them on.

 

Same for assets.  The team and pipeline should be in better shape with all the tank assets that were accumulated.

 

Murray tends to buy sky high (see assets).  I'd like to see him get better value in deals at least once in awhile.

 

He seems very content blaming the season on injuries and overly content with Dreary Dan.  We should have moved on from Dreary already.

 

His self serving reversal of the rebuild time frame that no one is even asking him about.  "Quick rebuild that's not going to take years" to "Patience and time" once it became apparent that his moves were not working out. 

A) What contracts? Moulson? Bogo?

 

b) Pu, Nylander, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues....the pipeline is pretty nice. We used a lot of those assets to get RoR and Lehner. Both of which have been worth it IMO

 

c) I like the sky high approach. If you see something you want, go get it

 

d) True, and I do not like this

[Thwomp!]

Where's the trademark "big move" when the team's been circling the drain all season?  He's been oddly content with this woeful season.  Even if it's a move for next year.  Keep the same players and coach and next year's an uphill battle before it even begins.

 

 

A) What contracts? Moulson? Bogo?

 

b) Pu, Nylander, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues....the pipeline is pretty nice. We used a lot of those assets to get RoR and Lehner. Both of which have been worth it IMO

 

c) I like the sky high approach. If you see something you want, go get it

 

d) True, and I do not like this

 

A) yse325 has done a good job in the Kane thread showing the cap issues we could encounter even over the next couple years.  The room would be very helpful in potentially upgrading the D, now and over the offseason.  Yes, Moulson and Bogo ($5 million+ through 2020!!!) are big ones that we're still saddled with in 2018-2019, along with Ennis.  Even Gorges at $4 million for 2017-2018 will severely hamstring us in upgrading the defense this coming offseason.

 

B) I'm not as enthused about the pipeline.  Rochester is a huge mess.  Nylander has been meh in the AHL.  Bailey, Baptiste, and Rodrigues still have a ways to go to show that they belong in the NHL.  Guhle is it on D, and us fans are putting enormous hope in him.  We need him to succeed as a solid 20 year old NHL defender or we're really in big trouble.

 

C) The more assets we have, the more chances for good draft picks.  Murray has been overrated as to his drafting ability, he needs all the picks he can get.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Thwomp, 

 

Next year's cap isn't really an issue.  We have 10 forwards (assuming 2 of Carrier, Baptiste or Bailey) make the team and 6 D (assuming Guhle makes the team) signed for next year for about $50 mill.  It's 2018-2019 where the real issues are because of the need to re-sign Kane, Jack and Sam, coupled with the bad contracts for Moulson, Ennis and Bogo.  

 

I started a thread to review GMTM's drafting and my biggest complaint was the lack of D drafted in his first draft (2014) and in the top 2 rounds of all 3 drafts (1 pick in the 2nd rd doesn't cut it).  However, he has only 3 drafts so it hard to expect many of the kids to be knocking at the door, when you consider that Baptiste and Bailey are only now making something of an impact and they are Regier picks from 2013.  Ultimately we need 3 players on average from each draft to have some impact in the NHL. So far GMTM has 2 (Jack and Sam), but it will be years before we can fully judge GMTM the scout/drafter.

 

GMTM biggest fault is that the bottom 4 D are all his acquisitions and they all stink.  Those mistakes ultimately torpedo'd the season and they all need to go asap. Trade Franson and Kulikov. Buy out Gorges and then somehow find a top 4 D.

[Robviously]

A) What contracts? Moulson? Bogo?

 

b) Pu, Nylander, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues....the pipeline is pretty nice. We used a lot of those assets to get RoR and Lehner. Both of which have been worth it IMO

 

c) I like the sky high approach. If you see something you want, go get it

 

d) True, and I do not like this

a) Moulson, Bogo, Ennis

 

b) Those are all forwards and we currently have the worst defense that I can remember (and I'm including the Tank years when I say that)

 

c) It's a terrible approach for basically everything from building a hockey team to saving for retirement.

 

d) There's not much to like.

[sabills]

I like a lot of what he's done. He hasn't really made any moves that I actively disapprove of. I think the EK and ROR trades were masterful, and not easy to pull off.

 

But we've known we've needed a D-man for at least three years now, and his answer to that so far has been signing Franson, and swapping Pysyk for Kulikov... I need to see him make a move for a d-man this year or else I'll be jumping off the bandwagon.

[Scottysabres]

There have been some poor decisions on defensemen. Specifically I question Tim Murray's acumen on talent for existing players. Let's review.

 

Zach Bogosain 5.14 aav, 3 yrs

Dmitry Kulikov 4.33 aav, UEFA

Josh Gorges 3.90 aav, 1 yr

Cory Franson 3.33 aav, UFA

That is 16.70 aav on 4 of the 6 roster D men that have these numbers:

 

Bogosain 36 games, 1g, 5a, -11

Kulikov 36 games, 1g, 1a, -15

Gorges 46 games, og, 3a, -4

Franson 55 games, 3g, 13a, -2

 

McCabe is a +2 in 57 games, surprising really. Risto is a -6 in 62 games but he had bore the bulk of minutes by a country mile, also surprising given the performance of the team season long.

 

We could point out the significant decencies in the bottom 6 forwards as well, but the fulcrum of starting this thread was and is the severity with which the defensive core of this team has completely failed. Those personnel decisions were made by Tim Murray.

 

So, the obvious questions to me are as follows:

Are the scouts/personnel talent advisers incompetent or just very poor at their jobs?

Did Tim Murray gamble and lose with the defensive ranks of this team, while knowing it was an extremely big gamble?

 

As to moving forward, there is an obvious empty cupboard outside of Guhle of any immediate help showing up next season.

There appears to be no known move of Kane to address the situation. Especially puzzling given the overall Kane/Bogosain trade and the depletion of assets for that deal.

 

I believe as a fan and supporter of the team that it is more than fair to question the leadership of this rebuild, point out it is faltering in key areas and discuss whether Tim Murray is the right individual for the job given his performance to date.

[apuszczalowski]

Yeah, but he looks like Dwight Shrute and sometimes he gets grumpy and mouths off so he must be an awesome GM.

well he did say "zero ducks given" and everyone went all doe eyes and awestruck at his wonderfulness. Some still find him great for making 1-2 good trades where he came out the winner without overpaying.

[rickshaw]

As many of you know I live in Kelowna and there are many NHL players who live here in the summer. I go to a gym where the likes of Shea Weber, Josh Gorges, Curtis Lazar to name a few, train. I speak frequently with the owner of the gym and we've had some good conversations about the Sabres. 

 

I have heard from many that JG is not happy there, mainly cuz he loved Montreal and cuz he HATES losing. We talked about guys like Ennis and Foligno just the other day. I mentioned I thought the team had really poor defence outside of the stud 55 and that I thought the coach didn't coach the way the team is set up. He told me that guys like Ennis and Foligno have to go. That Foligno thinks he is a top 6 guy and when he doesn't hit guys and get to the net, he's not effective. And that the way the team is set up that Dan Byslma HAS to coach them this way. They don't have any defense.

 

So a lot of this does sit on the GM. But I believe the coach is a big issue too. How can JE not get more ice than RR in a game against Arizona? He seems to not manage his bench well. The stud 55 is overused and is now wearing down. 

 

The GM needs to make some moves and sell the likes of TE and MF as well as any other dead weight player that can bring back picks of some sort. I doubt we will get help in the back end. 

 

I ramble but this team is done. I just hope that Jack doesn't say F it and leave as soon as he can. He is the future and they should be building around whatever he wants!

[WildCard]

Jack is never leaving the Sabres

 

Foligno is a perfect 3rd liner, but yes Ennis is useless 

[dudacek]

Tim Murray?

I'll give him a passing grade.

 

Acquired a very talented young forward core and an intriguing young goalie.

Appears to have a plan that I am on board with.

Elevated a horrible team to a mediocre team.

Appears to be a poor judge of blueline talent.

 

Team is worse than I hoped it would be this year, but it is within an acceptable window considering the path it will have to take.

We still have some pieces to fit in, and some to contracts to weed out but he certainly hasn't backed himself into a corner

Ultimately we contend based on the growth of Jack, Sam and Risto.

All three are better than last year and have room to be better still.

Edited February 27, 2017 by dudacek

[pi2000]

This team is closer than most people think.

 

The bottom six need an upgrade. That's easy to do.

 

The defense needs some work tho, which might be another few seasons, but a few moves should put this team near the top of the Atlantic next season. 

[Thorny]

This team is closer than most people think.

 

The bottom six need an upgrade. That's easy to do.

 

The defense needs some work tho, which might be another few seasons, but a few moves should put this team near the top of the Atlantic next season.

 

The difficulty being it appears we need at least TWO top 4 defencemen. It's hard enough to get one.

[Ottosmagic13]

As much as I like him, Ennis is becoming more and more expendable in my mind, between output and health issues. Would not mind seeing him included on a trade. Moulson is meh, Vegas fodder. Foligno, I think is okay when he is played in his spot (3rd line). Bailey has been a pleasant surprise to me, his speed and corner mucking deserve a spot. 

 

In last night's game, the first time in a long time that I remember of a D-man getting up in the play backfired and cost us a 2v1 that was nearly a goal. Several times it seemed they were missing passes and/or being blown out pinching at the wrong time. 

 

Besides drafting, who is available for us to acquire? We in all likelihood need TWO top 4 or a top 4 and two top 6 D-men...yuck

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ottosmagic13

[Doohickie]

As many of you know I live in Kelowna and there are many NHL players who live here in the summer. I go to a gym where the likes of Shea Weber, Josh Gorges, Curtis Lazar to name a few, train. I speak frequently with the owner of the gym and we've had some good conversations about the Sabres. 

 

I have heard from many that JG is not happy there, mainly cuz he loved Montreal and cuz he HATES losing. We talked about guys like Ennis and Foligno just the other day. I mentioned I thought the team had really poor defence outside of the stud 55 and that I thought the coach didn't coach the way the team is set up. He told me that guys like Ennis and Foligno have to go. That Foligno thinks he is a top 6 guy and when he doesn't hit guys and get to the net, he's not effective. And that the way the team is set up that Dan Byslma HAS to coach them this way. They don't have any defense.

 

So a lot of this does sit on the GM. But I believe the coach is a big issue too. How can JE not get more ice than RR in a game against Arizona? He seems to not manage his bench well. The stud 55 is overused and is now wearing down. 

 

The GM needs to make some moves and sell the likes of TE and MF as well as any other dead weight player that can bring back picks of some sort. I doubt we will get help in the back end. 

 

I ramble but this team is done. I just hope that Jack doesn't say F it and leave as soon as he can. He is the future and they should be building around whatever he wants!

 

I've never seen Foligno give off airs of being a top six player.  He works hard pretty much all the time, whether on the first or fourth line.  Maybe in the gym he talks about wanting to play in the top six, but there's nothing wrong with aspiring to play on a top line.  I agree that his physical game is key to his success.  He's been generally effective this year in his role.

Ennis?  Unless he fully recovers in the off-season, he's done.  He's only as effective as his speed makes him.  Without speed, he's pretty well worthless.

[pi2000]

The difficulty being it appears we need at least TWO top 4 defencemen. It's hard enough to get one.

 

True.   And consider this....

 

About 40% of the Sabres cap is tied up in 6 players; Moulson, Gionta, Ennis, Kulikov, Gorges and Bogosian... that's about $28mil.    

 

$28mil/yr for a total of 30 goals, 70 points and a -40 on the ledger.   That's a beautiful tank squad.

[Scottysabres]

This team is closer than most people think.

 

The bottom six need an upgrade. That's easy to do.

 

The defense needs some work tho, which might be another few seasons, but a few moves should put this team near the top of the Atlantic next season.

 

If it were that easy to do, it would have been done.

 

Also, the team is not closer than many think. We still have 2 or 3 rookie wingers and Rodriguez and Carrier that will need a season to truly click. The turnover rate will still be decent.

[Randall Flagg]

As many of you know I live in Kelowna and there are many NHL players who live here in the summer. I go to a gym where the likes of Shea Weber, Josh Gorges, Curtis Lazar to name a few, train. I speak frequently with the owner of the gym and we've had some good conversations about the Sabres. 

 

I have heard from many that JG is not happy there, mainly cuz he loved Montreal and cuz he HATES losing. We talked about guys like Ennis and Foligno just the other day. I mentioned I thought the team had really poor defence outside of the stud 55 and that I thought the coach didn't coach the way the team is set up. He told me that guys like Ennis and Foligno have to go. That Foligno thinks he is a top 6 guy and when he doesn't hit guys and get to the net, he's not effective. And that the way the team is set up that Dan Byslma HAS to coach them this way. They don't have any defense.

 

So a lot of this does sit on the GM. But I believe the coach is a big issue too. How can JE not get more ice than RR in a game against Arizona? He seems to not manage his bench well. The stud 55 is overused and is now wearing down. 

 

The GM needs to make some moves and sell the likes of TE and MF as well as any other dead weight player that can bring back picks of some sort. I doubt we will get help in the back end. 

 

I ramble but this team is done. I just hope that Jack doesn't say F it and leave as soon as he can. He is the future and they should be building around whatever he wants!

This is all really interesting stuff, thanks for bringing it here, and I hope you hear more things like it to tell us!

 

Interesting about Gorges...but unfortunately Josh, you suck. You're so bad. Every single player on this team gets worse when you're on the ice than they are when literally any other player that's dressed for this team this year is instead of you. You're a huge part of why this team is so bad.

 

$28mil/yr for a total of 30 goals, 70 points and a -40 on the ledger.   That's a beautiful tank squad.

Jack's producing at that rate by himself for a cap hit less than a million :P 

[GASabresIUFAN]

True.   And consider this....

 

About 40% of the Sabres cap is tied up in 6 players; Moulson, Gionta, Ennis, Kulikov, Gorges and Bogosian... that's about $28mil.    

 

$28mil/yr for a total of 30 goals, 70 points and a -40 on the ledger.   That's a beautiful tank squad.

At Gionta is trying to give the team their monies worth.

[Jacque Richard]

True.   And consider this....

 

About 40% of the Sabres cap is tied up in 6 players; Moulson, Gionta, Ennis, Kulikov, Gorges and Bogosian... that's about $28mil.    

 

$28mil/yr for a total of 30 goals, 70 points and a -40 on the ledger.   That's a beautiful tank squad.

The captain is the only one worth keeping

[Scottysabres]

So, are we just beginning the assessment of the Murray assessment?

Or, are we awaiting for some miracle deadline and off season before passing initial judgment?

Because I have a few choice words for the situation given the assets squandered we could have used to at least build some successful or potential successful defensive depth......starting with the 2015 draft, where picks were squandered.

[WildCard]

So, are we just beginning the assessment of the Murray assessment?

Or, are we awaiting for some miracle deadline and off season before passing initial judgment?

Because I have a few choice words for the situation given the assets squandered we could have used to at least build some successful or potential successful defensive depth......starting with the 2015 draft, where picks were squandered.

I'll begin it when Byslma is fired 

[Thorny]

I'll begin it when Byslma is fired

 

The fact that Bylsma is here at this point can start off the Murray assessment, as far as I am concerned.