TBN piece on sagging attendance, enthusiasm in arena

[Hank]

The arena experience in Buffalo sucks ass. It's horrible. But I think it goes way beyond the product on the ice. I attribute this is o two things; the first is that over the past three decades there have been a lot of blue collar jobs lost because of factory's/plants shutting down or moving. Combine that with taxes, weather and corrupt politics and you have a large amount of the blue collar population moving for greener/warmer pastures with better job opportunities. I think the second key factor is that "job guy" can't afford tickets anymore so you have "career guy" in the arena. "Job guy" and " career guy" are two distinctly different guys.

[wjag]

A winning, competitive team would cure a lot of what is being said here.

[beerme1]

We'll need something, it's embarrassing to be the only one screaming like an idiot.

 

 

I've stopped doing it because I cant get anyone else fired up anymore.

[Eleven]

A winning, competitive team would cure a lot of what is being said here.

 

 

It would cure everything.

 

It's not the annoying music that causes people to go numb.

[Weave]

The arena experience in Buffalo sucks ass. It's horrible. But I think it goes way beyond the product on the ice. I attribute this is o two things; the first is that over the past three decades there have been a lot of blue collar jobs lost because of factory's/plants shutting down or moving. Combine that with taxes, weather and corrupt politics and you have a large amount of the blue collar population moving for greener/warmer pastures with better job opportunities. I think the second key factor is that "job guy" can't afford tickets anymore so you have "career guy" in the arena. "Job guy" and " career guy" are two distinctly different guys.

 

I think the point I bolded is very much in play.  As a teen I remember Dad and I showing up at the Aud right at faceoff and buying tickets out front for $6-7.  It was a very "job guy" environment up in the oranges and SRO.  The few years preceding the move to the new arena we had season tickets on the 1st row of the oranges.  If I remember correctly the per game season ticket price was right around $8.  When they moved to the new arena, equivalent tickets were $24 per game.  Priced me out of the season ticket market.  

[Radar]

I do find it interesting that long term mediocrity has not affected the Bills quite the same way it has affected the Sabres.  The only difference I can think of is the tailgating experience.

Absolutely. I think that is the whole attraction for a lot of people going to Bills games. If it weren't for tailgating I think crowds would drop dramatically. If they build a new stadium where tailgating isn't available I think ticket sales will drop by quit a bit.

Other than Doug, all of those things happen at every arena (at least the ones I have been to). 

 

I wonder if there is any correlation between NHL fan enthusiasm and the decline in fighting. If players don't care enough about the game to get mad enough to fight, why should the fans care?

People may not admit it but a significant number of fans were very attracted to the fighting in hockey and many have lost interest in proportion to fighting being ,for the most part, eliminated.

[3putt]

The Blackhawks have one of the best arena experiences going. If they weren't winning cups, the UC would be half empty. And if they were winning they way Jersey did it would be half empty. The "fans" demand PK theatrics and exciting play. Without it the model franchise would be in trouble. I split seasons and have done so since before Rocky took over. The people who come now are there for selfies and the anthem.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

The game has changed. The goalies and their equipment have become huge. If you look at the pads the goalies wear now compared to 20 or more years ago, the difference is staggering. The huge pads make it harder to score. Fewer goals is obviously less exciting for the most part. Boring.

 

In addition, the game is played along the boards constantly. The players have their backs to the goal and it is just one long scuffle trying to circle the puck from one side of the ice to the other along the boards. Boring.

 

The defensemen also wear bigger and better pads which allows them to block so many shots without fear. It is very difficult to get shots through to the goal. Boring.

 

The rules of the game have put a damper on hitting too. The added hard pads the players wear on elbows and shoulders are like weapons and can cause serious damage to heads. Every hit in a vulnerable spot can cause injury now. The league has decided that hitting is the problem and is trying to legislate it out of the game. The problem may be the body armor that has become weaponized. No hiiting can be boring.

 

Also, the ice surface is too small. There is no room to skate. Fast, skilled skaters have been replaced by grinders. The game is played along the boards where the grinders chug along. Boring.

 

I've watched a lot of hockey over the years and I can say without hesitation that the game is not that interesting anymore. I try to watch a game on TV and it just bores me. 

 

I don't think I'm alone. The league better wake up.

[TrueBlueGED]

There's a whole lot of things that I think go into it, all of which have been touched on in some form. For me, I think two stick out: a boring product and few meaningful games. Some of that is specific to the Sabres, having tanked and not been a playoff team for awhile. Not going to argue that.

 

But I also think some of it is a league-wide problem. With an 82 game season, until you get to the stretch run and the playoffs, no single game feels especially critical, especially for your average fan. And whether you think it's because of a lack of scoring, a lack of lead changes, or a lack of penalties (or some combination thereof), a lot of games simply lack any kind of action. For many hardcore fans they find the sport inherently entertaining, but for your average fan that populates the majority of the arena, it's a problem. I don't consider myself a casual fan, but the Ducks game I went to produced precious few opportunities to get excited...for either team.

 

For all the crap the NFL gets (much of it well deserved), the NHL produces just as many bad games, there's just fewer commercial breaks. The league is progressively holding my attention less and less outside of Sabres games.

[PromoTheRobot]

Funny, I was "ahead of the curve" when I discussed fan enthusiasm as related to prices in the secondary market. The good news is that the secondary market is picking up. Some games are crossing the "cost" threshold. There are still some sub-$20 deals on weeknights to be had, and prices are still far below box office, even with StubHub fees added in, but there is a definite uptick in interest based on prices and demand. No doubt the Bills season going up in flames recently is a factor.

Edited December 24, 2015 by PromoTheRobot

[Neo]

Forgive me for mentioning this again. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but the "passion play" drama of the game within the game went away. With each result equaling 1/82 of the season, the stakes are never really high, especially for the first 77 games. I have come to appreciate 21st century hockey. However, I arranged my budget and week for Hartman and McGuire vs Quebec, Ray v Domi, the Big Bad Bruins and the Broad Street Bullies. "Ruff's sending May, Barnaby and Boughner out for the face off .... and here we goooo"!

 

Remember "we want Ray, we want Ray ...."?

 

Good guys v Bad guys .... Life.

 

Hockey's sanitized. So is football -- good moves, perhaps, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Edited December 24, 2015 by N'eo

[Sabel79]

A lot of this may be tied into a misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of just who, exactly is the "average fan."  The Sabres and several other franchises will point you to the season ticket rolls and argue that everything's fine, but surely they're not dumb enough to actually believe that every fan is rabid and wealthy enough to sit there 41 times a year.  They have to know that a large portion of these tickets are hitting the market in one way or another.  If the secondary market tanks, then season ticket sales will likely follow.  Then they'll have to pull their thumbs out. 

 

The single best experience I've ever had at a regular season NHL game was a Saturday night in Montreal.  In-game production was, I can assure you, not elaborate.  Fan enthusiasm and general craziness was.  For a team that, as I recall (it was 15 years ago), was awful at the time and got pumped by Carolina.  Who were also awful. 

[wjag]

A lot of this may be tied into a misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of just who, exactly is the "average fan."  The Sabres and several other franchises will point you to the season ticket rolls and argue that everything's fine, but surely they're not dumb enough to actually believe that every fan is rabid and wealthy enough to sit there 41 times a year.  They have to know that a large portion of these tickets are hitting the market in one way or another.  If the secondary market tanks, then season ticket sales will likely follow.  Then they'll have to pull their thumbs out. 

 

The single best experience I've ever had at a regular season NHL game was a Saturday night in Montreal.  In-game production was, I can assure you, not elaborate.  Fan enthusiasm and general craziness was.  For a team that, as I recall (it was 15 years ago), was awful at the time and got pumped by Carolina.  Who were also awful. 

 

 

I was thinking about Montreal as well.  They ooh and ahh on every play all game long.  Everywhere else, people are head down into their phones.

[PromoTheRobot]

A lot of this may be tied into a misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of just who, exactly is the "average fan."  The Sabres and several other franchises will point you to the season ticket rolls and argue that everything's fine, but surely they're not dumb enough to actually believe that every fan is rabid and wealthy enough to sit there 41 times a year.  They have to know that a large portion of these tickets are hitting the market in one way or another.  If the secondary market tanks, then season ticket sales will likely follow.  Then they'll have to pull their thumbs out. 

 

The single best experience I've ever had at a regular season NHL game was a Saturday night in Montreal.  In-game production was, I can assure you, not elaborate.  Fan enthusiasm and general craziness was.  For a team that, as I recall (it was 15 years ago), was awful at the time and got pumped by Carolina.  Who were also awful. 

This is why the secondary market is so important to teams. It's a buffer against mood swings in the fan base. It guarantees stability in revenue. The ticket resellers absorb the risk. Fans may cuss at resellers when teams are hot, saying they keep "real fans" from affording games, but the resellers buy tickets when fans don't care as much.

 

But what you said is true to a point, and it's something you don't want to see happen, because when the resellers throw in the towel, the franchise is pretty much dead.

Edited December 24, 2015 by PromoTheRobot

[Eleven]

Although I still believe the on-ice product is far and away the biggest reason, I did see two other ideas on the 'net that I thought were worth sharing:

 

--weak Canadian dollar

 

--really nice weather

 

For me, it's still the team.

[TheAud]

Well, something's going to change. This is hitting the suits and bean-counters now. Look out. Someone might even tell Terry about it.

 

Can we add Kim's re-envisioning of the arena atmosphere as one more example of how terrible these people are at owning these teams? Set the mission, fund it, hire good people, get out of the way. These teams don't exist for the glorification of their massive egos.

Your personal dislike of the Pegula's really shades your comments .

 

For example it's not inconsistent to wish there was more scoring in the NHL, but still be happy when the Sabres win some  games that happen to be low scoring.

 

I agree the NHL needs more scoring.

 

Most NHL arenas have annoying PA music and announcers. Ever hear them go "Whooo!" in Boston? Awful. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Sakman

[PromoTheRobot]

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2015/12/23/despite-sabres-upgrade-in-talent-attendance-levels-lagging/

PA, is your handle "Michael Bolton" when commenting on BN stories? Just curious.

[wjag]

PA, is your handle "Michael Bolton" when commenting on BN stories? Just curious.

 

THE Michael Bolton?

[thewookie1]

Examples of a better experience?

 

It's the little things. They often play "Shake it off" after the opponent scores. That would irk the crap out of me if I was a player. It just reeks of people who don't have a sense for the game making that decision and I'll leave it at that. And please stop announcing the opponent's goal three minutes after play has resumed. Do it before the faceoff. Who wants to be reminded you got scored on after it's already being put away in your head? Stupid. The organist's musical choices are atrocious. And, oh yeah, Doug Allen shouldn't be the anthem singer, whether or not 47 people shout "oooooggggieeeee" before he starts.

 

What is your problem with Doug Allen and the Pegulas in general? Would you rather the Sabres be in Hamilton? I'll deal with their inexperience if it means they'll spend oodles of money on the team and the Harborcenter.

 

Although I still believe the on-ice product is far and away the biggest reason, I did see two other ideas on the 'net that I thought were worth sharing:

 

--weak Canadian dollar

 

--really nice weather

 

For me, it's still the team.

 

I'd also add that the culture of the region has changed as well, far more white collar fans attend the games now than in the past while the cell phones keep many of the younger generation glued to them rather than watching the actual game. 

[PASabreFan]

PA, is your handle "Michael Bolton" when commenting on BN stories? Just curious.

No. I get my fill of commenting here.

Your personal dislike of the Pegula's really shades your comments .

 

For example it's not inconsistent to wish there was more scoring in the NHL, but still be happy when the Sabres win some  games that happen to be low scoring.

 

I agree the NHL needs more scoring.

 

Most NHL arenas have annoying PA music and announcers. Ever hear them go "Whooo!" in Boston? Awful. 

It's not a personal dislike.

What is your problem with Doug Allen and the Pegulas in general? Would you rather the Sabres be in Hamilton? I'll deal with their inexperience if it means they'll spend oodles of money on the team and the Harborcenter.

 

 

I'd also add that the culture of the region has changed as well, far more white collar fans attend the games now than in the past while the cell phones keep many of the younger generation glued to them rather than watching the actual game. 

When are people going to realize that as long if Terry is too involved in decision-making, it cancels out the advantage of his money? Terry is the average poster on SabreSpace or The Stadium Wall. Would you really want one of us pushing for certain players or picking head coaches? His wealth doesn't make him a hockey guy or a football man.

[dudacek]

No. I get my fill of commenting here.

It's not a personal dislike.

When are people going to realize that as long if Terry is too involved in decision-making, it cancels out the advantage of his money? Terry is the average poster on SabreSpace or The Stadium Wall. Would you really want one of us pushing for certain players or picking head coaches? His wealth doesn't make him a hockey guy or a football man.

When you look at the moves of Tim Murray, how much involvement do think TP has?

[jsb]

I agree with the white collar/blue collar guy. The majority of season tickets at one time were purchased by the diehard fans. When ticket prices went thru the roof the majority of season ticket holders became corporate sponsors. Instead of people who lived and died with the Home team it's now date night and hey I won free tickets to the game, let me ask my buddy who also doesn't really give a hoot about the team. Just a completely different fan at the games now a days. It's ok by me because one I don't like the drive in town anymore and I like the cheaper beer and parking in my garage as opposed to paying some extravagant price to park in the city's garage and $9 beers. 

 

The atmosphere won't get any better until the team starts winning big-time and the ticket holder becomes cool to be seen at the games. Unfortunately 21st century sports.

As for the players, they are bigger, faster and have better skills than at anytime in history. I realize it's my opinion but bigger rinks, smaller gkeeper padding and calling interference would kick up scoring a bunch, but that's in a different thread I think. Merry Christmas by the way, my hockey fix has been helped by getting GCLive and finding this site. Have a fruitful Holiday Season my fellow Sabre fans.

[Iron Crotch]

I agree with the white collar/blue collar guy. The majority of season tickets at one time were purchased by the diehard fans. When ticket prices went thru the roof the majority of season ticket holders became corporate sponsors. Instead of people who lived and died with the Home team it's now date night and hey I won free tickets to the game, let me ask my buddy who also doesn't really give a hoot about the team. Just a completely different fan at the games now a days. It's ok by me because one I don't like the drive in town anymore and I like the cheaper beer and parking in my garage as opposed to paying some extravagant price to park in the city's garage and $9 beers. 

 

The atmosphere won't get any better until the team starts winning big-time and the ticket holder becomes cool to be seen at the games. Unfortunately 21st century sports.

As for the players, they are bigger, faster and have better skills than at anytime in history. I realize it's my opinion but bigger rinks, smaller gkeeper padding and calling interference would kick up scoring a bunch, but that's in a different thread I think. Merry Christmas by the way, my hockey fix has been helped by getting GCLive and finding this site. Have a fruitful Holiday Season my fellow Sabre fans.

 

Corporate ticket holders comprise 60% of the fans in an average market. Buffalo isn't any different (probably less corporate than most markets, actually). Saying it has become too corporate doesn't explain why other markets that are even more corporate, more "white collar," are much louder...

 

...IMHO, the off-ice product - the arena experience - in Buffalo is the worst in the league. They offer very little beyond the on-ice product, which hasn't been very good. The arena is cavernous and has lousy acoustics. The choice of music during stoppages is terrible. There aren't any real attempts to fire up the fans by mascots, giveaways, clever videos played on the jumbotron (example attached), etc.... You get the game and not much else. That is fine if you have a good team, but without that you need a better game day experience to make it all worth it. The tailgating Bills example cited upthread is actually just that - a game day experience that makes up for a team that isn't very good.

 

 

[Eleven]

http://www.top10homeremedies.com/home-remedies/home-remedies-firming-sagging-breasts.html

[thewookie1]

Corporate ticket holders comprise 60% of the fans in an average market. Buffalo isn't any different (probably less corporate than most markets, actually). Saying it has become too corporate doesn't explain why other markets that are even more corporate, more "white collar," are much louder...

 

...IMHO, the off-ice product - the arena experience - in Buffalo is the worst in the league. They offer very little beyond the on-ice product, which hasn't been very good. The arena is cavernous and has lousy acoustics. The choice of music during stoppages is terrible. There aren't any real attempts to fire up the fans by mascots, giveaways, clever videos played on the jumbotron (example attached), etc.... You get the game and not much else. That is fine if you have a good team, but without that you need a better game day experience to make it all worth it. The tailgating Bills example cited upthread is actually just that - a game day experience that makes up for a team that isn't very good.

 

 

 

 

I miss the corny buffaloes charging the stadium video they'd start the game with, I miss the old music (I rarely hear "We will rock you") with the jumbotron actively engaging with the crowd.