Future Sabres: Identifying the core

[TrueBlueGED]

I hear you.

 

I look forward to the days of dissecting GM TM's tenure around here.  :death:

 

You think this will happen in the future? You clearly haven't perused the Kane trade thread recently :p

[ROD JACKSON]

I have never been impressed with Murray, he seems a bit cocky for someone who has never held this position before

 

So far he hasn't wowed me with any deal as he seems to not care what he has to spend to get what he wants and overpays for it

 

Is he an improvement over Regier though, definitely, but then I believe even the dumbest Chimp would have been an improvement over him.......

 

This idea that there is some set path that you have to follow and that it takes time to get this team turned around is completely bogus in the age of free agency. This team is weak on defence right now (not horrible but not anything to write home about) and has nothing in place in net right now. I didn't have a problem with lehner coming in to compete for the #1 spot, but there seems to be no backup plan aside from hoping in a few years there will be a starter ready down in Rochester. With lehner going down for some time it would have been nice to see the Sabres atleast try and show that they weren't just going to coast through another year and not make an attempt at going for a playoff spot and try to get a veteran to fill the crease, instead they just say they are going to ride Johnson and see what happens. I don't expect them to make the playoffs this year, but I do expect them to atleast try and make it look like thats the goal. Winning and trying to even squeak into the playoffs in the 8th spot isn't going to ruin this team or set them back. Unfortunately alot of Lemmings seem to believe that they have to follow one path that takes years before they can start to say the words playoffs.

FIRE EVERYBODY

[That Aud Smell]

You think this will happen in the future? You clearly haven't perused the Kane trade thread recently :P

 

:w00t:

 

:huh:

 

:(

 

:wallbash:

[woods-racer]

I hear you.

 

I look forward to the days of dissecting GM TM's tenure around here.  :death:

 

I love the use of dissect, I believe you looked up synonyms for bitch before posting.

 

Nicely done.

[That Aud Smell]

I love the use of dissect, I believe you looked up synonyms for bitch before posting.

 

Nicely done.

 

You misunderestimate me.

[nfreeman]

Something curious happened in nfreeman's woodshed. Hoss is a new man!

 

Swoon  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

You KNOW that's just going to go straight to my head, right? Start your topic-destroying meltdown countdown clocks. It's on now.

 

Some people just really like the gimp outfit.

 

You've taken the human side out of the equation and are treating each job positions as being filled by robots.

 

With Darcy, he is a good human being. Well liked and a good person. Respected around the league. Not admired around the league, but respected. Owner goes to jail, the next is cheap. Darcy never publicly threw anyone under the bus. You just don't buy a business and kick good people (they may not be the best at their job under current conditions) out the door before giving them a chance.

How many people on this board have been through an acquisition or merger?

Who'd think being fired is warranted given no chance with the new company when the 2 previous owners of the company you're working for are cheap and/or in jail?  

 

If Terry walked in and said *YOUR ALL FIRED, IT"S YOUR FAULT THIS BUSINESS NEVER SUCCEEDED*. Would you have more respect for Terry ? Would you have the same respect for a new owner of where you worked if he said that to you? 

 

Ditto for the Bills being run as Ralph wanted. 

 

I personally like Terry for trying, and in fact admire that he gives people a chance. It may be the more expensive route even. But to me, letting people hang themselves with the noose they made with their own two hands is ok, because your also giving them the chance to use their ropes to climb out of the holes dug by others. 

 

Good man.

 

In how many fields are you "hired to be fired"? Sports is a special exception. These guys know they won't be around in 10 years. Darcy was really pushing the envelope. It would have been hard to feel bad for Darcy in 2011 if he had gotten fired. He deserved it. And for the record, under unethical and skinflint owners, he could have won two to three Cups. He wasn't that handcuffed that he needed yet another chance under Terry.

 

Here's what I'm curious about. If Terry decided to give Darcy a shot, why didn't he get five or seven years like GMTM almost certainly will get? Darcy was gone in two and a half years. Why the short rope? I'm still not sure what Darcy did wrong. The tank appeared to be right on track. I've always wondered if Darcy in essence quit and got a golden parachute from Terry.

 

Well, this question is built on an unknowable assumption.

 

As for what DR did wrong -- he built a terrible team, and it got worse, not better, when he was given the keys to the vault.

 

As for the tank appearing to be on track -- no.  Remember the year that Lindy was fired and replaced with Rahn?  The Sabres were 5-3 in April of that year -- and ended up with Risto at #8 instead of, say, MacKinnon at #1, Barkov at #2 or Monahan at #6. 

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Dude. I've had like a billion hot pockets. I don't know if I have five years left.

 

LMAO...........Thats like eating a huge brick of salt, lol........How's the colon working?

 

(great post by the way........:beer:

Edited October 28, 2015 by DR HOLLIDAY

[That Aud Smell]

I looked for a thread that discussed the team's current core, and how many more pieces are needed in order to contend, once everything comes together.

 

But I could not find one.

 

I think maybe this is the best thread for it.

 

It'd be keen to re-title the thread, Hoss. Something like: Future Sabres: Identify Core of a Cup-Contending Team.

 

Just an idea.

 

Anyway. How many does the team need for a core? I swear this was discussed back in late summer. Is it like 7 or 8 players? I thought we were talking about the basic numbers vis-a-vis the Kings, Blackhawks, Penguins, and/or Bruins.

 

So, who's now on the team that also belongs on a Cup-contending core?

 

Seems like there are four that are 100% for sure part of that cohort: ROR, Reinhart, Risto, Eichel.

 

Beyond those guys - who? Some possible but perhaps not definite candidates (?): Kane (maybe belongs in that group of 4 (?)), Girgensons, Bogo, Pysyk, Ennis. I think I might've listed these guys in likelihood that they belong in the gang of four above.

 

But it seems like there's too many guys named above. If a true Cup contending core is ~7 or 8 (I think that's the number) and we included some of the "maybe" guys above, then we'd essentially be there, and would just need time to ripen. I don't think that's where the team is at, though. Are we?

 

Perhaps moreover, where are the future pieces coming from? A lot assets have been expended. We have some prospects in the pipeline. I reckon that, in order for this to come together, the team has to hit big on someone who's a current prospect. I guess that's always the case.

 

Anyway. Sorry to ramble. But I've been thinking about this stuff. A lot.

[Weave]

IMO a solid core is only like 6 players.  Something like 4 forwards and 2 D is a solid core.  But, they don't all have to be skaters.  Hasek was a core piece.  So was Miller.  It could be that Ullmark becomes part of the new core.

 

If there is any issue going forward, it may be that we don't have true wingers that may be core material.  Kane has potential to be one, but I'm not sold yet.

Edited December 7, 2015 by We've

[That Aud Smell]

IMO a solid core is only like 6 players.  Something like 4 forwards and 2 D is a solid core.  But, they don't all have to be skaters.  Hasek was a core piece.  So was Miller.  It could be that Ullmark becomes part of the new core.

 

If there is any issue going forward, it may be that we don't have true wingers that may be core material.  Kane has potential to be one, but I'm not sold yet.

 

that is helpful.

 

i watched a good amount of the vancouver game. eichel really does need help. not even necessarily a pair of wingers -- just one who can hang with him, provide him the outlets he needs, think and play the game at higher levels than what eichel has now.

 

bylsma talks a lot about how he thinks of the forwards more in terms of pairings than lines. eichel needs to be paired. i'm not sure that player is on the roster right now. long-term goal, perhaps.

[Hoss]

LMAO...........Thats like eating a huge brick of salt, lol........How's the colon working?

 

(great post by the way........:beer:

I just now saw this - my colon is more like a ;

[woods-racer]

Core for me is 7. At least with Blysma as coach.

 

3 defense 4 forwards

 

Top pair, plus an all around stud anchoring the the back end.

 

2 pairs of forwards, HCDB then inserts his third guy depending on the mood he's in that night.

 

Could be an 8 core, but a goalie as a core part is very rare. If the goalie is part of the core , it seems one of the others becomes disposable.

 

Right now the Sabres are missing 1 forward and one on defense. I don't believe Kane and Gorges are core.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Woods-Racer

[nfreeman]

Good thread revival.

 

I'd put my core at 7 or 8 guys.  That feels right to me in the context of dressing 19 guys per game (plus the backup goalie).

 

As far as the composition of the core -- I think it's necessary to define what we mean by "core."  IMHO, it means "I want this guy on my team for the next 5 years, and I'm not trading him or letting him go into free agency under any circumstances."  And that of course means "I'm willing to pay this guy a meaningful portion of my cap for a meaningful number of years."

 

Under that definition, I would only include a goalie in the core if he's a Lundqvist.  There's just too much up-and-down with most goalies to commit #1 money for, say, 5 years.

 

So I'd probably go with 5 forwards and 3 defensemen.  At forward, obviously ROR and Jackie boy are locks, and Reinhart and Kane are making strong bids to join the club (and I'd guess that GMTM sees them as club members). 

 

I don't know if the 5th guy is currently with the organization.  I could see Zemgus getting there, but he has quite a ways to go.  The 5th guy might come in free agency, as Hossa became part of Chicago's core.

 

On D, I think the 3-man core has to be headlined by a no-BS perennial Norris contender (like Chara, Doughty and Keith).  Will Risto get there?  Maybe, maybe not.  I can certainly see him as the #2 in a Cup-contending group of 3 core D, with McCabe or Bogo as the #3.  I'm not sure about having those 3 as the core 3.  OTOH, Risto and McCabe are presumably going to improve over time, so maybe they'll get there. 

 

If not -- Shea Weber looks like he's slowed down a little, but only a little.  He turns 31 next summer and is expensive, and Nashville is loaded on D.  Would Nashville part with him, giving the Sabres a killer top 4 for the next 4 or 5 years?

[WildCard]

Core for me is 4-5 guys, aka the Blackhawks model of 2 d-men, 2-3 fowards

[North Buffalo]

I too have pondered the core question and beg to differ on size. Was thinking of the 70s core with french connection plus luce and ramsay plus 3 to 4 D, Drury era had Briere and Dumont plus young guys including Vanek... Still seemed to me the successful cores in Sabres history were about 9 deep and +1 when a goaltender is included. I would argue 4 D, and 5 forwards.

 

so far Sabres are 1 to 2 forwards short and probably 2 D though McCabe could fill one of those rolls despite last nites game.

[WildCard]

I too have pondered the core question and beg to differ on size. Was thinking of the 70s core with french connection plus luce and ramsay plus 3 to 4 D, Drury era had Briere and Dumont plus young guys including Vanek... Still seemed to me the successful cores in Sabres history were about 9 deep and +1 when a goaltender is included. I would argue 4 D, and 5 forwards.

 

so far Sabres are 1 to 2 forwards short and probably 2 D though McCabe could fill one of those rolls despite last nites game.

I disagree on the forwards, I think ROR, Renihart and Eichel are the core. Core's these days are the guys you pay no matter what, and everyone else is expendable. Reinhart and Eichel are going to command $10m+ at minimum, and Risto will likely command Keith/Seabrooke money (what Keith should be making) after the next contract he has expires. We really need another d-man to fill out the core, and then you rely on your GM supplying talent in the pipe-lines that can supplant those that get too expensive (Sharp, Ladd, Big Buff, Saad, etc)

[That Aud Smell]

The 5th guy might come in free agency, as Hossa became part of Chicago's core.

 

Good stuff. 

 

And did similarly Dallas sign ... Sharp from Chicago? (What goes around ..., if so.)

 

Maybe I was not enough of a fan of the league when Hossa signed with Chicago, but I have a clear memory of being confused on why he'd want to leave DET for CHI. I was unaware of what was being built in CHI.

 

Core for me is 4-5 guys, aka the Blackhawks model of 2 d-men, 2-3 fowards

 

But they've somehow cycled really, really good NHLers through with that group of 4 or 5. So I think the # is 7-8, with maybe there being an inner core of 4 or 5.

[Samson's Flow]

I think the core question is all a matter of how elite the first few of your 'core' guys are. If you have true, no doubt superstars at the top, then the rest of the core guys matter a little less. The further down the top player list your first few guys are, the more the talent in your 4-7 ranked players matter.

 

Hopefully Eichel & co turn out to be as elite as we expect, then the rest of the pieces are much easier to fill.

I disagree on the forwards, I think ROR, Renihart and Eichel are the core. Core's these days are the guys you pay no matter what, and everyone else is expendable. Reinhart and Eichel are going to command $10m+ at minimum, and Risto will likely command Keith/Seabrooke money (what Keith should be making) after the next contract he has expires. We really need another d-man to fill out the core, and then you rely on your GM supplying talent in the pipe-lines that can supplant those that get too expensive (Sharp, Ladd, Big Buff, Saad, etc)

This is what I was thinking. Few top elite guys and the rest are replaceable talent to help manage the cap.

[Doohickie]

bylsma talks a lot about how he thinks of the forwards more in terms of pairings than lines. eichel needs to be paired. i'm not sure that player is on the roster right now. long-term goal, perhaps.

 

Right now I think the winger that works best with him is Reinhart.  Two problems with this are that the Kane-ROR-Samson line is too hot to break up right now, and Reinhart projects as a center over the long term, although I can easily see Eichel and Reinhart playing PP together like Crosby/Malkin or Zetterberg/Datsyuk.

 

I think the four you listed, Smell, are pretty solid.  And all the secondary pieces of the core make sense; it just will take time for them to shake out to see who sticks. 

 

When it comes to goaltending, I'm really not sure how I feel:  Do I want a franchise goalie like Hasek or Miller, or do I want a tandem?  I'm not that worried about it now; I think it's more important to get a functioning team and in a year or two try to figure out goaltending.  Let them learn to win with whatever goalie we have, then if we can, upgrade.  Any chance of an Ullmark/Kasdorf tandem in the future?

[That Aud Smell]

And thanks to the universally-hated Hoss for reviving the thread. You're gonna be UH-Hoss from now on, dude.

[WildCard]

But they've somehow cycled really, really good NHLers through with that group of 4 or 5. So I think the # is 7-8, with maybe there being an inner core of 4 or 5.

Well that's the point. Pitt has the same core model, they just can't identify complimenting talent to save their life (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kunitz....then nothing)

IMO a solid core is only like 6 players.  Something like 4 forwards and 2 D is a solid core.  But, they don't all have to be skaters.  Hasek was a core piece.  So was Miller.  It could be that Ullmark becomes part of the new core.

 

If there is any issue going forward, it may be that we don't have true wingers that may be core material.  Kane has potential to be one, but I'm not sold yet.

I don't see Kane as part of the core. A very solid piece, but he's expendable down the line. All wingers are unless you're Patrick Kane or Ovechkin 

 

And good point on the goalie, though they're definitely a ton cheaper than any forward will ever be so it won't/shouldn't be too much of a concern in keeping them. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by WildCard

[Samson's Flow]

Well that's the point. Pitt has the same core model, they just can't identify complimenting talent to save their life (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kunitz....then nothing)

I don't see Kane as part of the core. A very solid piece, but he's expendable down the line. All wingers are unless you're Patrick Kane or Ovechkin 

We're not going far in the playoffs if we don't have solid high talent supporting pieces like E Kane/Bogo etc, but i'm not sure he's a keep at all costs/pay whatever it takes guy. That's my definition of core players, and right now it is Eichel/ROR/Reinhart/Risto.

[WildCard]

We're not going far in the playoffs if we don't have solid high talent supporting pieces like E Kane/Bogo etc, but i'm not sure he's a keep at all costs/pay whatever it takes guy. That's my definition of core players, and right now it is Eichel/ROR/Reinhart/Risto.

Completely agree. But it's not even the talent, but how well they mesh. Kessel - Crosby and Crosby - Kessel are two all-stars with 40/50 goal seasons who dominate. Put them together and poof, nothing

[pi2000]

The core players will be self-evident.    They will reveal themselves as this team transforms into a contender.    O'Reilly and Eichel are the only evident core players today.   Beyond that you can only guess.  

 

This team hasn't won anything yet.   Who will be the players that support a playoff run?    Risto is developing nicely, but can he continue to improve at this rate, how long until he plateaues?   Nobody knows.    Does Guhle have a higher upside?   Maybe?   Are any of these guys injury prone?   It comes down to the players themselves.    Who is willing to put in the work, make the sacrifices to elevate their game?    Who are the leaders in the locker room?   Only the players and coaches know those answers. 

 

That said, Gorges is killing this team.    He was brutal last night.   Normally he's the slowest guy on the ice, last night EDM made him look like he should be playing beer league.   He lost every dump into his corner, I felt bad for him.   You know it's bad when you start to wonder if Mike Weber would be an upgrade.

[wjag]

I go with 6, one top line, one dman and one goalie and one second line center..