Grigorenko

[inkman]

He never has. TN loves the Larrson.

Since when? Just a couple of months ago the kid questioned his handling by coaches.

[PASabreFan]

Buffalo no like Russkies? Look how shrader look down to us.

[LGR4GM]

I just don't think we should expect a 20yr old or a 19yr old to be able to play a game here and there and magically understand and be able to compete at a high level.  I mean Zemgus has grown so much since last year because he got to make mistakes and learn from it.  Idk anymore, to me I question Ted Nolan's approach I guess more than Grigorenko's because watching and listening to them both, there is just something off there.  Grigorenko genuinely seems to be trying and learning and improving.  Ted Nolan seems to be unwilling to teach him.  Sending him down time and time again isn't teaching him anything other than Nolan doesn't believe in him.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Grigs was brought into the league too young and it hurt him being on a really crappy team too. Now he's all messed up in the head, i'm quite sure and his game has never been given a real chance. I'd like to see him on this team with some talent around him and then see what he's like.

He's no Mogilny, but imagine if the team gave up on Almo too early. That 76 goal season would never have happened. He got to play with #16 so that obviously helped but Mogilny wasn't that great when he first started.

 

I hope Grigs can make the team and prove he's a good player. Time will tell.

I was going to say the same. Grigs has had his chain yanked by the Sabres since he got here. The guy plays well in Rochester and still gets yanked around when he's called up. Is he dogging it? Maybe. But who's going to get fired up for a team that's trying to lose out? Isn't he just sticking to the program? Edited March 10, 2015 by Promonov Robotnik

[darksabre]

I just don't think we should expect a 20yr old or a 19yr old to be able to play a game here and there and magically understand and be able to compete at a high level. I mean Zemgus has grown so much since last year because he got to make mistakes and learn from it. Idk anymore, to me I question Ted Nolan's approach I guess more than Grigorenko's because watching and listening to them both, there is just something off there. Grigorenko genuinely seems to be trying and learning and improving. Ted Nolan seems to be unwilling to teach him. Sending him down time and time again isn't teaching him anything other than Nolan doesn't believe in him.

Clearly no one here has learned that Nolan doesn't decide on his own who gets called up or sent down. Doesn't GMTM make these calls?

[MattPie]

This is called consistency. It's old fashioned to mean what you say, and say what you mean. Nolan is old fashioned and it so grates against the "modern" view.

 

Rob Ray refers to "these new generation players" often...this is what he's talking about. Coddled babies who, eventually, if they hold out long enough, get their way because the "parents" give up.

 

You may not have liked Snape, but without him, Harry Potter wouldn't have won.

 

To follow your Potter analogy, SNolanpe wouldn't have even played Potter against Voldemort; he'd have tapped Neville because he's really been putting in the effort.

[dudacek]

My post wasn't directed at you Liger. Many on the board throw blame in the wrong direction imo. Could coach Nolan perhaps do things differently ? Sure he could. There's no sense giving prime icetime to a player unless he learns to play the game the right way as GMTM is so fond of saying and that is what TN is trying to instil. These players and this team in the long run will be better for it when that culture is ingrained in the room. Work for what you get. No exceptions. In a couple of years it'll be these guys holding the new guys accountable.

 

And I wonder why more fans aren't holding Nolan accountable?

 

The power play is a chance for the team to manufacture offence, period. PP time is not a reward for working hard. Lack of PP time is not a punishment for not working hard. By not putting the most talented players on the PP, Ted has hurt the team.

 

I blame Hodgson for Hodgson's ###### play. It is Hodgson's fault he is not on the first line and Hodgson's fault he has three goals. The point some seem to ignore is that the fact Hodgson is a waste of skin doesn't absolve Ted of all accountability. He is supposed to help players get better. It would be different if Hodgson was an outlier, but I don't see a lot of players getting better. I see some getting worse.

 

The Nolan boosters (when the season started I was one of them) remind me of Terry Pegula's blind quote about Darcy: "What's he done wrong?"

 

I'll ask again, how many coaches guide their teams to two consecutive DFL finishes and keep their jobs?

Edited March 10, 2015 by dudacek

[Ogre]

  Grigs is certainly going to be a fine nhl player one day. There is nothing wrong with his defense, or battle in the corners, or his compete level. I've watched him enough at the Blue Cross Arena(die-hard at every game). Stats don't always tell the whole story. Grigs has talent. He needs to have talent on his wings to thrive IMO. We haven't had the opportunity to see many players like Grigs in Rochester lately. Too many times I've seen him win the battle in the corner and fight his way toward the crease only to see his dandy of a pass get bobbled by one of the gringers Cassidy has to pair him with. Start of the season the Grig, Armia, Carrier line was hot. Its amusing for me to think that some folks have lost interest based on a few NHL games. Look at his wingers in those games. Give him some extended time with an upgrade at talent on his wings. Or trade him. Either way the kid is a humble/hard worker(take every chance I get to meet these kids) who is going to be a productive part of an NHL team. I hope it's ours.

[darksabre]

And I wonder why more fans aren't holding Nolan accountable?

 

The power play is a chance for the team to manufacture offence, period. PP time is not a reward for working hard. Lack of PP time is not a punishment for not working hard. By not putting the most talented players on the PP, Ted has hurt the team.

 

I blame Hodgson for Hodgson's ###### play. It is Hodgson's fault he is not on the first line and Hodgson's fault he has three goals. The point some seem to ignore is that the fact Hodgson is a waste of skin doesn't absolve Ted of all accountability. He is supposed to help players get better. It would be different if Hodgson was an outlier, but I don't see a lot of players getting better. I see some getting worse.

 

The Nolan boosters (when the season started I was one of them) remind me of Terry Pegula's blind quote about Darcy: "What's he done wrong?"

 

I'll ask again, how many coaches guide their teams to two consecutive DFL finishes and keep their jobs?

How many coaches are subjected to tank jobs of this proportion?

[JJFIVEOH]

Is there some kind of Bat Signal you all use when you're all ready to throw somebody under the bus? The choreography is impeccable when this place decides they don't like somebody. Not sure if it's coincidence that the timing comes right after Murray rid the team of your favorite whipping boys.   :rolleyes:

[Doohickie]

Clearly no one here has learned that Nolan doesn't decide on his own who gets called up or sent down. Doesn't GMTM make these calls?

 

Sabres' Nolan not satisfied with Grigorenko.  Maybe GMTM makes the moves, but Nolan isn't making it easy on Grigo.  My understanding is that Grigo was up on an emergency callup and as such had to go back down right away. 

 

I'm kind of torn.  It could be that the Nolan we're seeing isn't his best coaching effort, that he's purposely sabotaging things to ensure the tank, and that next year we may see something different.  But if that's not the case, he needs to go.  If we're seeing the Real Ted Nolan, he's nothing more than a caretaker coach.  Even if he is in on The Tank I think he may be poisoning his relationship of some of the young players like Grigorenko and Pysyk.

 

I think there is value in keeping them in the AHL, but the messages communicated to them as they come up and go back down seems.... harsh.

 

Either way, in Tim We Trust.  If Nolan is that bad, Murray knows it and Nolan will be gone.

[Samson's Flow]

And I wonder why more fans aren't holding Nolan accountable?

 

The power play is a chance for the team to manufacture offence, period. PP time is not a reward for working hard. Lack of PP time is not a punishment for not working hard. By not putting the most talented players on the PP, Ted has hurt the team.

 

I blame Hodgson for Hodgson's ###### play. It is Hodgson's fault he is not on the first line and Hodgson's fault he has three goals. The point some seem to ignore is that the fact Hodgson is a waste of skin doesn't absolve Ted of all accountability. He is supposed to help players get better. It would be different if Hodgson was an outlier, but I don't see a lot of players getting better. I see some getting worse.

 

The Nolan boosters (when the season started I was one of them) remind me of Terry Pegula's blind quote about Darcy: "What's he done wrong?"

 

I'll ask again, how many coaches guide their teams to two consecutive DFL finishes and keep their jobs?

This is essentially the reason I have been a supporter of Hodgson and critical of Nolan. The "hardest workers get playing time" is a great mantra in theory, until the metric for hardest working is hits and penalty minutes. Measuring effort based on these metrics (which I think is the crux of Nolan's problem) results in us playing Matt Ellis grinder types over guys with skill who don't go out of thier way to make a hit because they are more useful with the puck on thier stick.

 

The point I am trying to get at is there are plenty of ways to gauge player utility besides the narrow minded approach of Ted Nolan. Is there any surprise that this Sabres team is dead last in goals for? Even despite the lack of team talent, the player types that lead to scoring chances have little chance to get any meaningful ice time in Nolan's hierarchy system. If we played the Hodgson/Grigorenko types on the top lines we might have 10 less hits in a game but more scoring chances and maybe even a goal or two.

[TrueBlueGED]

Is there some kind of Bat Signal you all use when you're all ready to throw somebody under the bus? The choreography is impeccable when this place decides they don't like somebody. Not sure if it's coincidence that the timing comes right after Murray rid the team of your favorite whipping boys. :rolleyes:

If anything, this thread proves that there is no such consensus on Nolan.

[LTS]

Ted Nolan made it clear that players wouldn't be rewarded for going through the motions when he discussed Grigorenko being sent back down. That is not a flawed approach. That is how you change the culture of this team. That is how you lay the foundation.  How do you tell a player that works his butt off that the guy that is going through the motions will get the icetime based on what he should be producing not on what he is producing despite a poor work ethic ? Cough cough Hodgson. Hard work and effort is paramount at this point.  Every player at this stage in the teams growth has to know that. Some guys get it, some guys don't.

 

I thought the board generally was surprised Grigorenko was sent down to start the season as he had played well and hard.  Frankly, I think every player knows that Nolan is gone so why listen to anything he has to say.  They all know what was happening this season.  They aren't going to have that extra effort, no matter what.  They have to spend the entire season with Nolan so creating controversy only causes more problems in a season that wasn't going to be great anyway.  They all know it.  They all signed on for it.  It was never about this year for them.  it's about the next year and the year after.  For those like Gionta it was about being closer to home and still getting paid to lead and impart his knowledge to the team.  He'll be here.  Nolan was left on the staff to absorb the losses and placate fans.  He'll be gone.  If by some chance he had turned this team around then he might have earned himself another job and that was a far better opportunity he had than if he had just left town last year.

 

At what point do we cut bait with this guy? Is the seemingly-constant headache worth it?

 

Get rid of him and let him be someone else's problem.

 

I fail to see how Grigorenko has been the headache here.  It's been the Sabres use of him.  It was flawed at the beginning.  He's doing what he should now but the team also have goals and because of his past situation (created by the Sabres) he still has to pay the price.

 

As for Zemgus' development I think everyone seems to forget that he has more time with Nolan than anyone on the team.  Plus, he's just that kind of player.  He's far better than people gave him credit for to begin with.

[Samson's Flow]

Is there some kind of Bat Signal you all use when you're all ready to throw somebody under the bus? The choreography is impeccable when this place decides they don't like somebody. Not sure if it's coincidence that the timing comes right after Murray rid the team of your favorite whipping boys.   :rolleyes:

JJ I know you aren't calling me out specifically, but I have been on the Hodgson is good/Nolan is stifling offense train for a long time. It is probably more that everyone accepted the Nolan coaching mantra as a way to get to DFL this year, but as the number of games dwindles and the light at the end of the tunnel approaches, it is time to start addressing the issues that will hold this team back from being successful next year.

[darksabre]

I love how Lindy was placed on a pedestal for over a decade and people criticized the players for not being good enough.

 

Then when the team is a steaming pile of garbage for a roster suddenly we're ready to blame coaching. :rolleyes:

[JJFIVEOH]

JJ I know you aren't calling me out specifically, but I have been on the Hodgson is good/Nolan is stifling offense train for a long time. It is probably more that everyone accepted the Nolan coaching mantra as a way to get to DFL this year, but as the number of games dwindles and the light at the end of the tunnel approaches, it is time to start addressing the issues that will hold this team back from being successful next year.

What issues would that be?

 

For what it's worth, I've been on the Hodgson is good/Nolan is good bandwagon for a while. I've been critical of Hodgson's effort lately and I think he is extremely one-dimensional. But I want to wait until he has somebody that can bring out his one dimension before tossing him to the curb. Just like I think Nolan deserves a shot with the same talent before throwing him to the curb. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Samson's Flow]

What issues would that be?

 

For what it's worth, I've been on the Hodgson is good/Nolan is good bandwagon for a while. I've been critical of Hodgson's effort lately and I think he is extremely one-dimensional. But I want to wait until he has somebody that can bring out his one dimension before tossing him to the curb. Just like I think Nolan deserves a shot with the same talent before throwing him to the curb. 

That's certainly fair, but for me there is only one way that Nolan led teams have ever played. From his original stint with Buffalo, to his time with the Latvian national team, to the last few years, his teams have always been focused on a grinding and effort play style. He has had moderate success with this when he had an all world goalie in Hasek, and with Latvia they gave Canada a scare (but still lost). For me, it is more that I don't want that play style to be the strategy for the Sabres going forward, especially with the expectation that we will have some high-end talent in McEichel and Reinhart joining the team next year.

 

I'm looking for more of a offensive system coaching mindset that will allow the talented players to be creative and generate scoring chances. With that coaching mindset and the physical players that GMTM has already brought I think we will have a balance of scoring and physicality.

[dudacek]

I love how Lindy was placed on a pedestal for over a decade and people criticized the players for not being good enough.

 

Then when the team is a steaming pile of garbage for a roster suddenly we're ready to blame coaching. :rolleyes:

 

I want to make sure I'm clear on this: I am not blaming Nolan for this team being a steaming pile of garbage.

He's more like Brian Flynn — not a huge problem, just not part of the solution either.

Edited March 10, 2015 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

I love how Lindy was placed on a pedestal for over a decade and people criticized the players for not being good enough.

 

Then when the team is a steaming pile of garbage for a roster suddenly we're ready to blame coaching. :rolleyes:

 

I really think you're missing the point. Just because the results are going to be poor does not meant we cannot judge coaching decisions. I don't think any amount of coaching decisions would produce a good team given this roster, but that still does not excuse improperly using the players he has on hand. If he can't use these players properly, why should I believe he could use players properly when he has a better roster?

[dudacek]

How many coaches are subjected to tank jobs of this proportion?

 

Of the 21 worst teams of the past 15 years, 18 fired their coaches during that season, at the end of that season, or partway through the next season. There have been more 50 to 60 point teams than I would have thought.

Here is every team that has finished 65 points and under since 2000:

 

2014 Buffalo 52 (Ron Rolston fired early in season)

2012 Columbus 65 (Scott Arniel fired end of season)

2011 Edmonton 62 (Tom Renney held his job until the end of 2012 season)

2010 Edmonton 62 (Pat Quinn fired end of season)

2009 NY Islanders 61 (Scott Gordon held his job until November 2010)

2007 Philadelphia 56  (Ken Hitchcock fired early in season)

2006 Chicago 65 (Trent Yawney fired midway through season)

2006 St. Louis 57 (Mike Kitchen fired midway through next season)

2006 Pittsburgh 58 (Ed Olczyck fired midway through season)

2004 Chicago 59 (Brian Sutter fired end of season)

2004 Pittsburgh 58 (Ed Olczyck fired midway through next season)

2004 Washington 59 (Bruce Cassidy fired midway through season)

2003 Carolina 61 (Paul Maurice fired early next season)

2002 Columbus 57 (Dave King fired midway through the next season)

2002 Atlanta 54 (Curt Fraser fired midway through season)

2001 NY Islanders 52 (Butch Goring fired late in season)

2001 Tampa 59 (Steve Ludzik fired midway though season)

2001 Atlanta 60 (Curt Fraser fired midway through next season)

2000 NY Islanders 58 (Butch Goring fired late in 2001 season)

2000 Tampa 54 (Steve Ludzik fired midway though 2001 season)

2000 Atlanta 39 (Curt Fraser kept his job until midway in the 2002/03 season)

Edited March 10, 2015 by dudacek

[JJFIVEOH]

Again, is there any proof that Nolan cannot be a qualified coach with an offensively talented team? I keep hearing that he's not the one to move forward with, and he will try to turn gifted players into gritty two-way players. But is there something to base that on? Can it be that he just plays that game now because he knows it's the only way to squeak out a few wins with this particular roster?

 

(We should probably start a Nolan thread)

 

Edit: I forgot we already have one. I'll be over there. 

Of the 21 worst teams of the past 15 years, 18 fired their coaches during that season, at the end of that season, or partway through the next season. There have been more 50 to 60 point teams than I would have thought.

Here is every team that has finished 65 points and under since 2000:

 

2014 Buffalo 52 (Ron Rolston fired early in season)

2012 Columbus 65 (Scott Arniel fired end of season)

2011 Edmonton 62 (Tom Renney held his job until the end of 2012 season)

2010 Edmonton 62 (Pat Quinn fired end of season)

2009 NY Islanders 61 (Scott Gordon held his job until November 2010)

2007 Philadelphia 56  (Ken Hitchcock fired early in season)

2006 Chicago 65 (Trent Yawney fired midway through season)

2006 St. Louis 57 (Mike Kitchen fired midway through next season)

2006 Pittsburgh 58 (Ed Olczyck fired midway through season)

2004 Chicago 59 (Brian Sutter fired end of season)

2004 Pittsburgh 58 (Ed Olczyck fired midway through next season)

2004 Washington 59 (Bruce Cassidy fired midway through season)

2003 Carolina 61 (Paul Maurice fired early next season)

2002 Columbus 57 (Dave King fired midway through the next season)

2002 Atlanta 54 (Curt Fraser fired midway through season)

2001 NY Islanders 52 (Butch Goring fired late in season)

2001 Tampa 59 (Steve Ludzik fired midway though season)

2001 Atlanta 60 (Curt Fraser fired midway through next season)

2000 NY Islanders 58 (Butch Goring fired late in 2001 season)

2000 Tampa 54 (Steve Ludzik fired midway though 2001 season)

2000 Atlanta 39 (Curt Fraser kept his job until midway in the 2002/03 season)

How many of those coaches were subjected to tank jobs of this proportion?

Edited March 10, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[qwksndmonster]

Again, is there any proof that Nolan cannot be a qualified coach with an offensively talented team? I keep hearing that he's not the one to move forward with, and he will try to turn gifted players into gritty two-way players. But is there something to base that on? Can it be that he just plays that game now because he knows it's the only way to squeak out a few wins with this particular roster?

 

(We should probably start a Nolan thread)

Some of us don't see any indication of that ability from his time with the Sabres.  Yes, the Sabres are terrible, but it's not like Nolan has anybody playing above themselves.

[Doohickie]

I want to make sure I'm clear on this: I am not blaming Nolan for this team being a steaming pile of garbage.

He's more like Brian Flynn — not a huge problem, just not part of the solution either.

 

I think you sell poor Brian short with that analogy.

[JJFIVEOH]

Some of us don't see any indication of that ability from his time with the Sabres.  Yes, the Sabres are terrible, but it's not like Nolan has anybody playing above themselves.

Please, tell me! What are these indicators? Why can't anybody give me a legitimate answer? 

 

Hodgson scored 20 goals last year on what WAS the worst offensive team in 78 years. 

Girgensons would have scored 20 goals this year on what WILL BE the worst offensive team in 79 years. 

 

Do you have any other superior offensive talent on this roster that was producing before Nolan that suddenly stopped when he got here?