Grigorenko

[JJFIVEOH]

Wow this post is nonsense.

 

You're loaded with snide comments. How about you add some substance to your posts. You're reminding me why I never read your posts in the first place. Grow up.

[Samson's Flow]

No it does not.  He's playing the only guys who produce....even if its little production.  So the guys who are producing the most, counted by points, are usually getting the most playing time. So yes its true. 

 

And Meszaros has sucked, which is why he's getting the least amount of ice.

 

Hodgson does not prove your point at all.  He's not scoring on the PP when he's playing. Thats the freaking point.  He has 1 PP point allllllll season.   His production on the PP has plummeted and thats why his scoring is down.    His numbers breakdown don't support your position at all. He's scoring less per PP min than any point in recent memory.... and that's because the PP sucks and .  We could double his PP time and his production would still be way down. 

Dude, Hodgson lead the team in points last year in an equally bad team. Led the team in points.

 

This year he has gotten the 23rd most time on ice/game on the Sabres at 12:59 min/game. That is below such awesome players as Flynn (17th 15:53), Mitchell (18th 15:20), Mezaros (12th 17:38) and Benoit (9th 18:28). That's even below AHL guys like Varone and Armia and right next to Cody McC. How you expect him to have even remotely close to the production with limited ice time is beyond me. Despite all that he is still 6th on the team in shots (i.e. basis of Corsi/offense).

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20152BUFSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary

[MattPie]

Dude, Hodgson lead the team in points last year in an equally bad team. Led the team in points.

 

This year he has gotten the 23rd most time on ice/game on the Sabres at 12:59 min/game. That is below such awesome players as Flynn (17th 15:53), Mitchell (18th 15:20), Mezaros (12th 17:38) and Benoit (9th 18:28). That's even below AHL guys like Varone and Armia and right next to Cody McC. How you expect him to have even remotely close to the production with limited ice time is beyond me. Despite all that he is still 6th on the team in shots (i.e. basis of Corsi/offense).

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20152BUFSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary

 

Good info, although you can't really equate the D since there's only 3 pairs of them to split time vs. 4 forward lines. He's also 23rd in shifts per game. Interestingly, Deslauriers is right there with him. Could Nick's TOI be off from the few games he's played 3rd-pair D?

Edited March 11, 2015 by Met'yuPirog

[Patty16]

Dude, Hodgson lead the team in points last year in an equally bad team. Led the team in points.

 

This year he has gotten the 23rd most time on ice/game on the Sabres at 12:59 min/game. That is below such awesome players as Flynn (17th 15:53), Mitchell (18th 15:20), Mezaros (12th 17:38) and Benoit (9th 18:28). That's even below AHL guys like Varone and Armia and right next to Cody McC. How you expect him to have even remotely close to the production with limited ice time is beyond me. Despite all that he is still 6th on the team in shots (i.e. basis of Corsi/offense).

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20152BUFSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary

 

Of course its beyond......... he's getting about the same amount of even strength time, he's not getting the additional PP time because he's been awful on it.  

 

Sorry but 1 point all year on the PP is pathetic and he doesn't deserve to play more on that unit.  So when 20-40% of his points in his better years come from the PP and 1% of his points do this year, it means he's having a bad year and more time will not mean more production.  

 

I listen to a lot of NHL talk around the league and read a ton of stuff.  NO ONE is saying we are using Hodgson wrong.... he's having a horrible year. 

 

Why you think giving him more PP time will magically increase his production when the numbers show otherwise is beyond me. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by Patty16

[LGR4GM]

Only on SabreSpace can people complain that a coach preaches and rewards effort.  

 

 

You're loaded with snide comments. How about you add some substance to your posts. You're reminding me why I never read your posts in the first place. Grow up.

 

 

Anyways, I can't tell from the "Sabrespace..." post if you actually don't understand what people are talking about or you just don't care because you think they are wrong.

 

Ted Nolan rewards the guys who play the style of hockey he likes regardless of that style producing any on ice results. 

[Samson's Flow]

Of course its beyond......... he's getting about the same amount of even strength time, he's not getting the additional PP time because he's been awful on it.  

 

Sorry but 1 point all year on the PP is pathetic and he doesn't deserve to play more on that unit.  So when 20-40% of his points in his better years come from the PP and 1% of his points do this year, it means he's having a bad year and more time will not mean more production.  

I don't know how many more stats I can give you stating the contrary.

 

Hodgson's time on ice/game in the 2013/14 season was 18:08, basically even with Vanek and Moulson. With that additional 5 mins of ice time per game, he was our most productive offensive player, leading the team in points, second in goals and third in shots generated. That's playing the year in a top 6 role rather than with the likes of McCormick and Deslauriers.

[JJFIVEOH]

Anyways, I can't tell from the "Sabrespace..." post if you actually don't understand what people are talking about or you just don't care because you think they are wrong.

 

Ted Nolan rewards the guys who play the style of hockey he likes regardless of that style producing any on ice results. 

 

 

Seriously, when you have comments like "The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort." what is anybody supposed to think?

 

Seems to be an awful lot of that going around. Not sure what happened in the last week for this sudden disdain for Nolan, but it's eerily similar to every other time this place decides to gang up on their new whipping boy. Questioning his respect around the league? Do you guys even bother to open your mind and listen to the rest of the hockey world?

Edited March 11, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Patty16]

Anyways, I can't tell from the "Sabrespace..." post if you actually don't understand what people are talking about or you just don't care because you think they are wrong.

 

Ted Nolan rewards the guys who play the style of hockey he likes regardless of that style producing any on ice results. 

 

 

No he doesn't  Look at points and ice time with forwards.  The guys who score  generally play more

 

Of the forwards with the most ice time, theyre all producing more points than the guys below them with the exception of Hodgson........

 

If anything he's getting more ice time than his points show he should,  and he's being outscored by HOFers like Foligno and Deslauriers even though they get much less ice.  

 

 

So Nolan does not only reward one type....he plays the top 6 who produce the most POINTS

[LGR4GM]

Seems to be an awful lot of that going around. 

 

Seriously, when you have comments like "The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort." what is anybody supposed to think?

 

Not sure what happened in the last week for this sudden disdain for Nolan, but it's eerily similar to every other time this place decides to gang up on their new whipping boy, Questioning his respect around the league? Do you guys even bother to open your mind and listen to the rest of the hockey world?

Okay not really sure where you are going with that.  I think there are questions about Nolan's ability to coach a young team.  I don't understand what this means though... "Seriously, when you have comments like "The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort." what is anybody supposed to think?"

[qwksndmonster]

You're loaded with snide comments. How about you add some substance to your posts. You're reminding me why I never read your posts in the first place. Grow up.

Because you don't know how to comprehend them?  It's not like I'm setting out to be snide, terrible posts just have that effect on me.

[Patty16]

I don't know how many more stats I can give you stating the contrary.

 

Hodgson's time on ice/game in the 2013/14 season was 18:08, basically even with Vanek and Moulson. With that additional 5 mins of ice time per game, he was our most productive offensive player, leading the team in points, second in goals and third in shots generated. That's playing the year in a top 6 role rather than with the likes of McCormick and Deslauriers.

 

 

Because you're looking at it wrong

 

this year he has 1pt for every 81 mins of PP time

13/14 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time

12/13 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time 

 

So his production is way off on the PP ---- and what I'm saying is that's where hes dropped off, and where his points are missing.  So looking at these numbers he's not going to score all that much more playing the PP that many more minutes. 

 

He's awful on the PP this year, and part of that is losing guys like Vanek and Pommers the last two years.  Now he has no one and he's not producing. 

[Samson's Flow]

No he doesn't  Look at points and ice time with forwards.  The guys who score  generally play more

 

Of the forwards with the most ice time, theyre all producing more points than the guys below them with the exception of Hodgson........

 

If anything he's getting more ice time than his points show he should,  and he's being outscored by HOFers like Foligno and Deslauriers even though they get much less ice.  

 

 

So Nolan does not only reward one type....he plays the top 6 who produce the most POINTS

Yeah you nailed it. :wallbash:

 

Flynn and Mitchell have a whopping 13 and 17 points compared to Hodgson's 11 this season. That is pretty insignificant considering Flynn and Mitchell were generally playing with "2nd line" talent and had nearly 3 mins a game more ice time. Thats like 4-5 shifts a game.

[LGR4GM]

No he doesn't  Look at points and ice time with forwards.  The guys who score  generally play more

 

Of the forwards with the most ice time, theyre all producing more points than the guys below them with the exception of Hodgson........

 

If anything he's getting more ice time than his points show he should,  and he's being outscored by HOFers like Foligno and Deslauriers even though they get much less ice.  

 

 

So Nolan does not only reward one type....he plays the top 6 who produce the most POINTS

There are 7 players with less TOI than Cody Hodgson - 12:59

Nick Deslauriers - 11:48

Cody McCormick - 11:42

Jake McCabe - 11:07

Tim Schaller - 10:49

Johan Larsson - 10:33

Sam Reinhart - 10:21

Jerry D'Amigo - 10:07

 

Now I left off Dalpe, Kaleta and Ellis because they are the bottom 3 and for obvious reasons.  I guess I should leave off D'Amigo too but whatever. Deslauriers is the only player with more points (you could toss out the defenders as well I guess) and out of the forwards above Cody with more TOI, you have 6 out of 11 who are within a massive 8pts or less of Hodgson.  It isn't like the guys with more TOI are destroying opponents or anything.  Hell 8pts in the NHL could happen easily for Cody in the next 2 weeks.  Now you could technically say that it is 4 out of 9 now with the players that got moved at the deadline but the point is there are only 5 players that I would gauge as significantly producing more points that Cody.  Out of those 1 is on IR so that leaves 4.  Out of those the only RW is Gionta with 19pts.  So what you are telling me is that since the deadline Cody Hodgson is still our 4th worse RW on this team... because that is how Nolan is using him. 

 

The point being, this is not a Ted Nolan witch hunt.  This is a concern that Nolan may not be the best coach to develop young talent at the NHL level when he seems to have both favorites and an inability to be patient with certain players for various reasons. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ligerovich 4GM

[Samson's Flow]

Because you're looking at it wrong

 

this year he has 1pt for every 81 mins of PP time

13/14 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time

12/13 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time 

 

So his production is way off on the PP ---- and what I'm saying is that's where hes dropped off, and where his points are missing.  So looking at these numbers he's not going to score all that much more playing the PP that many more minutes. 

 

He's awful on the PP this year, and part of that is losing guys like Vanek and Pommers the last two years.  Now he has no one and he's not producing. 

I've been looking for PP TOI and I can't seem to find it. If I did find it, I would point out (based on your stats above) that Hodgson has 81 mins of PP time this year, compared to 475 mins in 13/14. That's a pretty small sample size this year that could normalize a bit if he got the 400+ mins he got last year. That and instead of him, we've been giving PP time to Flynn. That's my issue.

[dudacek]

No he doesn't  Look at points and ice time with forwards.  The guys who score  generally play more

 

Of the forwards with the most ice time, theyre all producing more points than the guys below them with the exception of Hodgson........

 

If anything he's getting more ice time than his points show he should,  and he's being outscored by HOFers like Foligno and Deslauriers even though they get much less ice.  

 

 

So Nolan does not only reward one type....he plays the top 6 who produce the most POINTS

Chicken/egg

 

On any team the highest scorers are going to have the most ice time because increased scoring is usually a function of ice time, particularly PP ice time.

Until the trade deadline, it had been months since Hodgson had received significant PP time.

At the beginning of the season he was getting second unit time, which is what he has receive again since the deadline.

 

MOulson, Girgensons, and Gionta have scored one, one and zero PP goals, respectively.

They continually get put out on the PP because they are producing?

[Samson's Flow]

There are 7 players with less TOI than Cody Hodgson - 12:59

Nick Deslauriers - 11:48

Cody McCormick - 11:42

Jake McCabe - 11:07

Tim Schaller - 10:49

Johan Larsson - 10:33

Sam Reinhart - 10:21

Jerry D'Amigo - 10:07

 

Now I left off Dalpe, Kaleta and Ellis because they are the bottom 3 and for obvious reasons.  I guess I should leave off D'Amigo too but whatever. Deslauriers is the only player with more points (you could toss out the defenders as well I guess) and out of the forwards above Cody with more TOI, you have 6 out of 11 who are within a massive 8pts of Hodgson.  It isn't like the guys with more TOI are destroying opponents or anything.  Hell 8pts in the NHL could happen easily for Cody in the next 2 weeks.  The point being, this is not a Ted Nolan witch hunt.  This is a concern that Nolan may not be the best coach to develop young talent at the NHL level when he seems to have both favorites and an inability to be patient with certain players for various reasons. 

Liger, it seems we are using stats to back up our arguement, but it won't win us anything because our opponents have the much more definitive "eye test" support. :bag:

[Patty16]

Yeah you nailed it. :wallbash:

 

Flynn and Mitchell have a whopping 13 and 17 points compared to Hodgson's 11 this season. That is pretty insignificant considering Flynn and Mitchell were generally playing with "2nd line" talent and had nearly 3 mins a game more ice time. Thats like 4-5 shifts a game.

 

 

Right and all the guys with top 6 minutes have the most points. 

 

Flynn and Mitchell play the PK and thats where those extra shifts come from. 

 

But please continue to say how Ted Nolan is holding back Hodgson from scoring another 30 points

[LGR4GM]

Liger, it seems we are using stats to back up our arguement, but it won't win us anything because our opponents have the much more definitive "eye test" support. :bag:

Oh I add more stats to mine.  Right now Hodgson is the #2 RW in points on this team while garnering bottom 6 ice time. 

[Patty16]

I've been looking for PP TOI and I can't seem to find it. If I did find it, I would point out (based on your stats above) that Hodgson has 81 mins of PP time this year, compared to 475 mins in 13/14. That's a pretty small sample size this year that could normalize a bit if he got the 400+ mins he got last year. That and instead of him, we've been giving PP time to Flynn. That's my issue.

 

and he had 125 total the year prior but produced more

[LGR4GM]

Right and all the guys with top 6 minutes have the most points. 

 

Flynn and Mitchell play the PK and thats where those extra shifts come from. 

 

But please continue to say how Ted Nolan is holding back Hodgson from scoring another 30 points

Running the math quick Mitchell and Flynn would still average slightly more ice time than Cody per game if you take their PK time into consideration... Roughly 20-30seconds a game or 1 extra shift per game. 

[Samson's Flow]

Chicken/egg

 

On any team the highest scorers are going to have the most ice time because increased scoring is usually a function of ice time, particularly PP ice time.

Until the trade deadline, it had been months since Hodgson had received significant PP time.

At the beginning of the season he was getting second unit time, which is what he has receive again since the deadline.

 

MOulson, Girgensons, and Gionta have scored one, one and zero PP goals, respectively.

They continually get put out on the PP because they are producing?

And to bring it back full circle, how is Grigorenko supposed to show anything this year when he gets the same ice time/opportunity that Hodgson gets? With the understanding that Hodgson was an established NHL scorer prior to this season, and is struggling to put up points given the usage/lack of ice time, how do we expect Grigorenko to show anything given Nolan's player usage?

[LGR4GM]

Cody Hodgson is getting 1:18 of pp time per game. 

[Patty16]

Oh I add more stats to mine.  Right now Hodgson is the #2 RW in points on this team while garnering bottom 6 ice time. 

 

 

Bc he plays center and the two top producing RWs were traded? 

[TrueBlueGED]

Why does everyone think Nolan is so respected around the league? He went how long between NHL jobs and only got one back because he was tight with LaFontaine. That doesn't scream highly respected to me.

[Patty16]

And to bring it back full circle, how is Grigorenko supposed to show anything this year when he gets the same ice time/opportunity that Hodgson gets? With the understanding that Hodgson was an established NHL scorer prior to this season, and is struggling to put up points given the usage/lack of ice time, how do we expect Grigorenko to show anything given Nolan's player usage?

 

 

Bc Hodsgon is scoring roughly the same amount even strength as he always has,   

 

Young kids like Grig arent normally give 20 mins of ice time when they are that young, unless they are killing it.