sicknfla Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 What possible plan could PLF have that would have worked? In particular from a guy with minimal Front Office experience and limited player development experience? Trades? Did that for picks. Draft? In progress. Make "HOCKEY TRADES"? Yeah we saw the elevation Ott brought. Seriously, when your core is not capable of contending how do you proceed? Enlighten me, please? I think he wanted to keep at least Miller and Ott. Possibly trade some of our prospects/picks for proven players. Then make a run at a few higher profile FA's in the summer. Regardless his plan was to get better as quickly as possible. It was anti-tank and when he interviewed Murray i doubt the conversation consisted of your job is to put a last place team on the ice. When GMTM got here he was instructed to move in a certain direction. TP and the boys caught wind and said "hey what is going on here". PLF said f this and because we have a first time GM and desperate coach we now have the plan beautifully in place. Gorges waived a ntc to come here. It is the equivalent of a fa decision. Gorges knew the situation and chose it over Toronto. Hmmmm Both organizations are a joke. Just si happened he hated Buffalo less. Like he said himself- his wife was expecting a baby and he felt he had to move on. Trust me probably shed A LOT of tears in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 We tried the run at fas. Ott is a journeyman. Miller wasn't enough. Vanek was as good as gone. When you have nothing you have nothing to deal with. Saying PLF wanted to get good fast is not a plan.The reality is poor drafting and player development for the duration of DR's tenure left very few options but to start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Have faith people. I had absolutely no faith that Regier would lead us to the promised land and he was apparently well respected by the other members of the ol boys club. Sure we came close once or twice during his tenure but we all know the outcome. Nada, Zip. Everyone knew going into this season what the product would look like. We had torn away most of the pieces that couldn't deliver. We had watched them grow and we were aware of their capabilities. So trade them for picks and start developing from within. We were also aware that FA's were not tripping over themselves to come here. Home grown talent was the answer and everyone from fans to media alike knew that was the direction to go. We are also early into this build. So what I don't quite understand is why all the hand wringing and whining ? Patience is a virtue that few of you have. I do and I'm in it for the long haul. There's a few others here that have it too. Have some faith. What I do know is if the crying gets loud enough for ownership to abandon the ' plan ' halfway then we are really in for a shitshow. Stay the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 I think he wanted to keep at least Miller and Ott. Possibly trade some of our prospects/picks for proven players. Then make a run at a few higher profile FA's in the summer. Regardless his plan was to get better as quickly as possible. It was anti-tank and when he interviewed Murray i doubt the conversation consisted of your job is to put a last place team on the ice. When GMTM got here he was instructed to move in a certain direction. TP and the boys caught wind and said "hey what is going on here". PLF said f this and because we have a first time GM and desperate coach we now have the plan beautifully in place. Both organizations are a joke. Just si happened he hated Buffalo less. Like he said himself- his wife was expecting a baby and he felt he had to move on. Trust me probably shed A LOT of tears in the process. But TO is doing exactly what you espouse. Make trades, bring in FA's and yet you and others dismiss them. I see it as evidence that overhauling, while disteful, is a better way to build. Have faith people. I had absolutely no faith that Regier would lead us to the promised land and he was apparently well respected by the other members of the ol boys club. Sure we came close once or twice during his tenure but we all know the outcome. Nada, Zip. Everyone knew going into this season what the product would look like. We had torn away most of the pieces that couldn't deliver. We had watched them grow and we were aware of their capabilities. So trade them for picks and start developing from within. We were also aware that FA's were not tripping over themselves to come here. Home grown talent was the answer and everyone from fans to media alike knew that was the direction to go. We are also early into this build. So what I don't quite understand is why all the hand wringing and whining ? Patience is a virtue that few of you have. I do and I'm in it for the long haul. There's a few others here that have it too. Have some faith. What I do know is if the crying gets loud enough for ownership to abandon the ' plan ' halfway then we are really in for a shitshow. Stay the course. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ForTripping Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) Gorges waived a ntc to come here. It is the equivalent of a fa decision. Gorges knew the situation and chose it over Toronto. he waived because his boy Gionta signed Edited November 9, 2014 by 2ForTripping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 But it was a conscious decision nonetheless. He knew how bad we were, he played against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Have faith people. I had absolutely no faith that Regier would lead us to the promised land and he was apparently well respected by the other members of the ol boys club. Sure we came close once or twice during his tenure but we all know the outcome. Nada, Zip. Everyone knew going into this season what the product would look like. We had torn away most of the pieces that couldn't deliver. We had watched them grow and we were aware of their capabilities. So trade them for picks and start developing from within. We were also aware that FA's were not tripping over themselves to come here. Home grown talent was the answer and everyone from fans to media alike knew that was the direction to go. We are also early into this build. So what I don't quite understand is why all the hand wringing and whining ? Patience is a virtue that few of you have. I do and I'm in it for the long haul. There's a few others here that have it too. Have some faith. What I do know is if the crying gets loud enough for ownership to abandon the ' plan ' halfway then we are really in for a shitshow. Stay the course. :clapping: You speak for me. The team looks worse than I thought, but the record is pretty much exactly what I expected. Moan all you want about what got us here, but this season was never to be enjoyed, only endured. Cross your fingers that Girgensons, Reinhart and Risto are more Ramsay, Schoenfeld and Martin than they are Anderson, Cyr and Lacombe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 I love how the pamphlet boasts 69% of goals are scored by 1st or 2nd rounders and 62% of games played are by 1st and 2nd rounders. Well, this season, 67% of the Sabres goals have been scored by 1st or 2nd rounders, and 60% of the players in last night's game are 1st or 2nd rounders. I guess we should be 2% away in points in the standings as well? When the roster's average age is above 23, the finished product will look more like finished product Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Benefits of reselling their tickets again? If "it" works, the product should be so good no one will want to miss a game. Man, this whole situation is just rotten to the core. I wasn't talking about the resale market. I was talking about watching a great team contending each year, maybe one of the best players in the league, and getting guaranteed playoff tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 This will be 8 straight seasons without winning a playoff series. I don't think fans (and especially STH) are the least bit unjustified in being frustrated, despite all the post-hoc rationalization that goes on here. There are many ways to build a successful team, yet everyone here seems to have convinced themselves there is only one way to do so. We shall see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 If Terry wants to go down as one of the great owners — an Ilitch, a Rooney, a Kraft — and I think he does, I hope he doesn't have this attitude. I'm afraid he does. I mean, he's already kind of hinted at precisely your theory. That winning is a crapshoot, something that happens to the lucky, not something that you make happen, then look lucky. The Rooney's owned the Steelers from day 1 and that team was a laughing stock for over 3 decades until Noll, Bradshaw, & the Steel Curtain showed up. Illitch's Wings went many seasons before breaking from the Dead Things meme. Even w/ Stevie Wonder working his magic. And take Marcia off the Cheatriots and how wonderful is Kraft? Pretty sure he's the guy that wanted to get that team out of NE. It doesn't happen overnight, unless you luck into a Mike Lynn taking your phone call. (Paging Mr. Snow to the white courtesy phone.) There are hockey men (TM & CP) in roles calling the hockey shots now. This season is lost, next year is when we start to see what they can do. The team will likely be competitive for a playoff spot but not quite there. This team has a lot of (apparently) quality youth in the pipeline, a plethora of picks, and $'s to lure guys in their prime. With that the rebuild doesn't have to be many years in the making; though 3 years after this for them to be GOOD is probably realistic. Will they get there? No data. But they have the resources to have a shot. This particular season, it's plug your nose and try to watch. Look for and appreciate the promise they show when they do (1st 2 periods vs Chicago, game vs Habs) but don't be enamored to the point that they're expected to compete regularly against teams like the Pens, Hawks, or Habs. When those sorts of teams are in a funk or overlooking the Sabres, they'll compete; when they aren't, it's a long night. Next year is when they should regularly show a pulse. If they don't, then I'll be ticked. This year, (to paraphrase Dennis Green) they are who they said they are. This will be 8 straight seasons without winning a playoff series. I don't think fans (and especially STH) are the least bit unjustified in being frustrated, despite all the post-hoc rationalization that goes on here. There are many ways to build a successful team, yet everyone here seems to have convinced themselves there is only one way to do so. We shall see... Totally disagree that everyone here (or even a vast majority) believes there's only 1 way to build a successful team. The problem is, once you've rolled this far on the rims, it's silly (IMHO) to pump in fix-a-flat when the garage is just down the street and you can get new tires and rims. The issue here is, though nobody likes the ride, there isn't agreement in how to handle the next couple of miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 This will be 8 straight seasons without winning a playoff series. I don't think fans (and especially STH) are the least bit unjustified in being frustrated, despite all the post-hoc rationalization that goes on here. There are many ways to build a successful team, yet everyone here seems to have convinced themselves there is only one way to do so. We shall see... Find me an example of a single credible poster who has said this is the *only* way to build a team. I really tire of these accusations designed to discredit those who support tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 I wasn't talking about the resale market. I was talking about watching a great team contending each year, maybe one of the best players in the league, and getting guaranteed playoff tickets. Yeah, I kind of figured that out too late. Sorry. There was something about the phrase "reap the benefits" that threw me off. (Of course, even not STHs are going to get to reap the benefits you're talking about, minus the guaranteed ducats.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Totally disagree that everyone here (or even a vast majority) believes there's only 1 way to build a successful team. The problem is, once you've rolled this far on the rims, it's silly (IMHO) to pump in fix-a-flat when the garage is just down the street and you can get new tires and rims. The issue here is, though nobody likes the ride, there isn't agreement in how to handle the next couple of miles. Fair enough. It may not be the majority, but certainly many of those who post most often have devoted considerable time and effort to proposing and defending the "have to be really bad before getting really good" argument using Chicago and Pittsburgh as "credible" evidence that it is the proper course of action. People have been promoting tanking for years on this forum - it certainly isn't a recent phenomenon. As I recall, it started a couple of years ago (the MacKinnon draft) and has now amplified into an absolute obsession around here. Half the avatars are of tanks and people seem to have convinced themselves that fielding an utterly unwatchable team now is "necessary" for the greater good of the future. Fine, I get that we're here so there isn't a choice at this point. And, I'm not saying folks shouldn't focus on and/or be excited for the future. But, personally I can't celebrate the fielding of historically bad teams. For every Chicago and Pittsburgh there is a Columbus, Florida, Isles, and Oilers. The only certainty, as I see it, is a ton of lost revenue for the foreseeable future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Fair enough. It may not be the majority, but certainly many of those who post most often have devoted considerable time and effort to proposing and defending the "have to be really bad before getting really good" argument using Chicago and Pittsburgh as "credible" evidence that it is the proper course of action. People have been promoting tanking for years on this forum - it certainly isn't a recent phenomenon. As I recall, it started a couple of years ago (the MacKinnon draft) and has now amplified into an absolute obsession around here. Half the avatars are of tanks and people seem to have convinced themselves that fielding an utterly unwatchable team now is "necessary" for the greater good of the future. Fine, I get that we're here so there isn't a choice at this point. And, I'm not saying folks shouldn't focus on and/or be excited for the future. But, personally I can't celebrate the fielding of historically bad teams. For every Chicago and Pittsburgh there is a Columbus, Florida, Isles, and Oilers. The only certainty, as I see it, is a ton of lost revenue for the foreseeable future. So if Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston, LA isn't the way to go give an example you would emulate. Ground rules first. No original 6. No NY market. After that we get a little thin. Vancouver? Oh yeah they drafted brothers after being atrocious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 So if Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston, LA isn't the way to go give an example you would emulate. Ground rules first. No original 6. No NY market. After that we get a little thin. Vancouver? Oh yeah they drafted brothers after being atrocious. And yet none of those franchise 'tanked' on purpose for a pickChicago was bad because of cheap ownership, and their resurgence also co-incided with the old owner kicking the bucket and his son taking over opening the wallet...... Pittsburgh was bad because the franchise was in bankruptcy and lucked into Crosby, they didn't throw seasons in order to get into a position to draft him, they were lucky enough to win a draw for him..... Boston is where they are by not only drafting well but making good trades to bring talent in. Obtaining Chara, trading Kessel away for picks and lucking into one of them being a #2 overall pick that they could alter trade. It wasn't until they found Thomas that they became one of the top teams LA is another team that made it to where they are by some good drafts and some great trades What has Vancouver done to enter this? Again, some good drafting and trades to bring in talent. So far all Buffalo has done is dump talent to obtain picks and a few prospects banking on winning the lottery this year to get a potential elite talent. So when they get McDavid, all of the sudden this is going to become the place to be for FA's? Buffalo's plan for success is the equivalent to having a retirement plan of cashing in your current life savings on lotto tickets to the next huge powerball draw. Your broke and struggling now, but you have soooo many chances to become a huge millionaire it can't fail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 9, 2014 Report Share Posted November 9, 2014 Buffalo's plan for success is the equivalent to having a retirement plan of cashing in your current life savings on lotto tickets to the next huge powerball draw. Your broke and struggling now, but you have soooo many chances to become a huge millionaire it can't fail! Hey man, I've got enough in those accounts to cover 20% of the numbers. Don't mock me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 Hey man, I've got enough in those accounts to cover 20% of the numbers. Don't mock me! I guess we should've kept hoping that Vanek, Pominville, Miller, Gaustad, and a perpetual run at first round picks in the 8-20 range would have been enough to put us into cup contention. The team was going no where and a rebuild was necessary. While you can argue that we didn't have to tear it down as bare bones as we did, I don't think holding on to portions of our failed aging core would have made the last couple of seasons that much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I guess we should've kept hoping that Vanek, Pominville, Miller, Gaustad, and a perpetual run at first round picks in the 8-20 range would have been enough to put us into cup contention. The team was going no where and a rebuild was necessary. While you can argue that we didn't have to tear it down as bare bones as we did, I don't think holding on to portions of our failed aging core would have made the last couple of seasons that much better. The bolded is exactly what I've argued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 The bolded is exactly what I've argued. I understand the feeling but from listening to many of the players like Vanek and Miller it was obvious that they didn't want to stay here. Maybe if we had kept Gaustad and Pominville Miller would've stayed but I think Vanek was ready to leave regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 I understand the feeling but from listening to many of the players like Vanek and Miller it was obvious that they didn't want to stay here. Maybe if we had kept Gaustad and Pominville Miller would've stayed but I think Vanek was ready to leave regardless. *sigh* We've been through this so many times. I don't want to get into it again. We didn't need to trade every player for picks. They could have been actual hockey trades that changed the culture and changed the direction of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 *sigh* We've been through this so many times. I don't want to get into it again. We didn't need to trade every player for picks. They could have been actual hockey trades that changed the culture and changed the direction of the team. I guess so but we all know Darcy was usually a price taker as opposed to someone who set the market and good teams heading towards the trade deadline are usually looking to load up on talent not ship players who can help now out the door so you are pretty much left with picks and greener prospects. Murray hasn't been here that long and he made several moves to bring in talent that can help sooner. There's not much else we can do now because of the cap considerations of most teams and once again teams at the deadline will be looking to add talent not subtract it. All that being said I imagine he'll continue to do that in the off season and the ###### show that has been the last couple of seasons will be done with. The bulk of this rebuild will be completed with the 2015 draft even if we don't land Eichel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 makes you wonder what the real end game here is. Was it the Pegulas establishing their bona fides as professional sports owners so they could be handed the Bills? That's what keeps me awake some nights.... Holy crap really? Well all that and 1.4 Billion dollars gets you the Bills. You forgot about that part. Highest bidder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 McLovin: once, we'll be really angry,but we'll forgive. Twice? GTFO. Marrone, this was a playoff game, basically, and you don't know when to go ( 4th & 1, you kicked) and when to kick (4th and 10, you went)? Are you that ###### stupid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted November 10, 2014 Report Share Posted November 10, 2014 McLovin: once, we'll be really angry,but we'll forgive. Twice? GTFO. Marrone, this was a playoff game, basically, and you don't know when to go ( 4th & 1, you kicked) and when to kick (4th and 10, you went)? Are you that ###### stupid? Dude. Put down the pipe and get your threads straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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