drnkirishone Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 you don't grow your US exposure with crap teams that are managed poorly (Atlanta, Florida, Glendale). So unless you get the right owners in place to hire the right people to get the right players all you end up with is a couple more US teams that are dragging down the rest of the league. However you put a 2nd team in Toronto or possibly even Quebec you are almost assured of revenue growth. It is kinda like going to a casino and playing the slot machine hoping to hit that progressive jackpot sure there is a chance it could happen, or you could go play some blackjack and have a much better chance of walking away with money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) you don't grow your US exposure with crap teams that are managed poorly (Atlanta, Florida, Glendale). So unless you get the right owners in place to hire the right people to get the right players all you end up with is a couple more US teams that are dragging down the rest of the league. However you put a 2nd team in Toronto or possibly even Quebec you are almost assured of revenue growth. It is kinda like going to a casino and playing the slot machine hoping to hit that progressive jackpot sure there is a chance it could happen, or you could go play some blackjack and have a much better chance of walking away with money. True, Atlanta. Phoenix and Miami were misses. Hopefully there were lessons learned there. San Jose, Anaheim and Nashville (Carolina too? I'm not sure. Someone who lives there help me out) were hits. Toronto is short sighted. Edited September 11, 2014 by Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Now that is a cold knife to the gut. :death: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 i haven't put much thought into it, but what's your thinking behind the NFW to TOR-II? Not a permanent NFW -- just NFW on it happening before a US city gets a team. I just think (i) most of the owners will prefer another US team to another Canadian team, largely for the reasons Hank mentioned and (ii) the Leafs and the Sabres will firmly oppose a 2nd Toronto team -- so those factors together make me pretty confident that Seattle or Vegas baby Vegas will get one first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Not a permanent NFW -- just NFW on it happening before a US city gets a team. I just think (i) most of the owners will prefer another US team to another Canadian team, largely for the reasons Hank mentioned and (ii) the Leafs and the Sabres will firmly oppose a 2nd Toronto team -- so those factors together make me pretty confident that Seattle or Vegas baby Vegas will get one first. Makes sense. The resistance will only ebb when TOR and BUF are getting a big enough check to make it worth their while, and I'm not certain there is a big enough check to make it worth TP's while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) The two reasons Toronto will have a second NHL team before any other market gets one ... dollars and cents. ===== EDIT TO ADD: Should have kept reading ... The Leafs will not oppose a second team in Toronto. Why would they? In fact, I am quite certain that the powers that be with the Leafs are really pushing the league hard to make sure it happens. Edited September 11, 2014 by Sabres Fan In NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 The two reasons Toronto will have a second NHL team before any other market gets one ... dollars and cents. ===== EDIT TO ADD: Should have kept reading ... The Leafs will not oppose a second team in Toronto. Why would they? In fact, I am quite certain that the powers that be with the Leafs are really pushing the league hard to make sure it happens. Because every GTA kid who becomes a fan of the Toronto Major MacKenzies and buys their jerseys, t-shirts, etc. is a kid who does not become a Leafs fan and buy their stuff. Regarding the 2nd point, this is almost certainly not the case. I think it's been widely reported that the Leafs were strongly opposed to Balsillie's proposed team in Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The bettman plan. expand to non traditional US markets (even at the expense of canadian markets). Focus on markets in the south of the US where the populations probaly have never seen ice let alone watched a sport played on ice You laugh but kids from California and Arizona are making it to the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Because every GTA kid who becomes a fan of the Toronto Major MacKenzies and buys their jerseys, t-shirts, etc. is a kid who does not become a Leafs fan and buy their stuff. Regarding the 2nd point, this is almost certainly not the case. I think it's been widely reported that the Leafs were strongly opposed to Balsillie's proposed team in Hamilton. That Hamilton situation was different. That was a personal distaste, on the part of the Leaf powers that be, for the prospective owner. And the Leafs were also protesting, IMO, on behalf of the Sabres, since a team in Hamilton would be pretty much a disaster for the Sabres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Because every GTA kid who becomes a fan of the Toronto Major MacKenzies and buys their jerseys, t-shirts, etc. is a kid who does not become a Leafs fan and buy their stuff. Regarding the 2nd point, this is almost certainly not the case. I think it's been widely reported that the Leafs were strongly opposed to Balsillie's proposed team in Hamilton. Also, NHL teams have their own TV contracts, like the NBA. So every GTA kid who becomes a fan of the Toronto Crack Mayors also takes one more viewer away from the Leaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 True, Atlanta. Phoenix and Miami were misses. Hopefully there were lessons learned there. San Jose, Anaheim and Nashville (Carolina too? I'm not sure. Someone who lives there help me out) were hits. Toronto is short sighted. A glaring difference between the Southern U.S. markets: hockey hasn't done well in cities with NBA basketball teams due to direct competition for the sports entertainment dollar. The only one you could make a case for is Dallas, but they won a Cup shortly after moving to the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 A glaring difference between the Southern U.S. markets: hockey hasn't done well in cities with NBA basketball teams due to direct competition for the sports entertainment dollar. The only one you could make a case for is Dallas, but they won a Cup shortly after moving to the city. How 'bout LA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 How 'bout LA? Enough dollars to go around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Enough dollars to go around? Perhaps, but I think there are plenty of dollars to go around in Atlanta and Miami too. I think the key issue in those 2 cities was simply having year after year of crappy teams. Most U.S. cities wouldn't support teams that bad, regardless of location and NBA presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Perhaps, but I think there are plenty of dollars to go around in Atlanta and Miami too. I think the key issue in those 2 cities was simply having year after year of crappy teams. Most U.S. cities wouldn't support teams that bad, regardless of location and NBA presence. I think that's a large part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 How 'bout LA? LA has had a team since 1967 and I don't remember them drawing well until they brought Gretzky to town (second biggest market in the U.S., of course, helps as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 The thought of an expansion draft just randomly came to mind while reading this. I wonder how they would handle no movement clauses. Do they force the team to burn up one of their protected player spots for anyone with a NMC? These drafts would be far more interesting now than they were back in the 90s thanks to the cap. Just picture use last year praying that someone would take on Leino's cap hit in an expansion draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Been monitoring this thread. So, curious. The NHL put a team in Anaheim when there was a team in LA. These two arenas are less than 36 miles from each other. Both teams appear to be doing quite well and are in a warm weather city. That said, I think the league will seek the opportunity to attract a FULL viewing market over a partial viewing market when they choose to expand/relocate a franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted September 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 It's hard to talk about attendance of a team that has won two cups recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 Irrefutable logic for placing a team in Houston! (courtesy of P.K. Subban) http://bloguin.com/p...of-beyonce.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 It's hard to talk about attendance of a team that has won two cups recently. They hadn't won any cups when the Ducks were installed though. You can't use now to discuss then. That said, the Kings drew pretty well at the time. However, they had Gretzky at the time and went to the Cup finals in 92-93. The Ducks showed up the following year. They had to pay the Kings directly for taking some of their market. However, both now seem to be doing rather well and possibly are pushing each other to succeed. This could happen in Toronto as well. Still, I think the expansion of today would be more calculated and more business like. A lot has changed since 1993. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 More chatter on Vegas... I really want this to be untrue: http://nypost.com/2014/11/12/nhl-picks-owners-for-likely-vegas-team/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 More chatter on Vegas... I really want this to be untrue: http://nypost.com/20...ely-vegas-team/ thanks for the update. my most pressing and immediate concern -- getting bumped out of the 1 and 2 slots at the 2015 draft -- appears to have passed. the larger question of whether it makes sense to plunk a pro sports franchise in sin city is one on which i am conflicted. even setting aside the issue of whether the team and franchise would struggle to avoid influence from and corruption by the local wagering industries, i wonder whether vegas is the sort of town that would support "its" team. isn't vegas comprised mostly of people from other places? so the vegas arena would be mostly filled every night with people who live in the area and/or have traveled to the area and are there to see and cheer for the visitors. seems like a toxic recipe. i mean, the brooklyn nets struggled with apathy from their fan base in year 1 of their existence, and most of the people in that arena were presumably all brooklyn-identified. how's it going to go for the las vegas jacks (or whatever vaguely gambling themed name they pick)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 thanks for the update. my most pressing and immediate concern -- getting bumped out of the 1 and 2 slots at the 2015 draft -- appears to have passed. the larger question of whether it makes sense to plunk a pro sports franchise in sin city is one on which i am conflicted. even setting aside the issue of whether the team and franchise would struggle to avoid influence from and corruption by the local wagering industries, i wonder whether vegas is the sort of town that would support "its" team. isn't vegas comprised mostly of people from other places? so the vegas arena would be mostly filled every night with people who live in the area and/or have traveled to the area and are there to see and cheer for the visitors. seems like a toxic recipe. i mean, the brooklyn nets struggled with apathy from their fan base in year 1 of their existence, and most of the people in that arena were presumably all brooklyn-identified. how's it going to go for the las vegas jacks (or whatever vaguely gambling themed name they pick)? Agreed. Apart from the fact that I think expansion in general is a terrible idea when you already have franchises that are not well-supported by their fanbases (Panthers, cough, cough), I have a hard time picturing a successful one in Vegas. There are far too many other (less expensive) things for visitors to do there, and no idea how much interest there would be from permanent residents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) I give up. When there's other markets aching for hockey (Seattle, QC, and possibly Hamilton, Markham, and KC), it's seems foolhardy to go this route, but the NHL wants to do the cash grab on the franchise fee, be the first big four in Vegas, and try to grab the casino corporate dollar. I think they think the Vegas population and fan dollars project big over the next 20 years and they want in on the ground-ish floor. In reality, I don't really care. Atlanta starting up and moving has not had one real effect on my life. Nor has the low attendance in Florida, Anaheim, NYI, etc. I'd go watch the Sabres play in Vegas once in a while and help us out number the Las Vegas AcesGamblersHookersDamsHangoversTumbleweeds fans about 3:1. Edited November 13, 2014 by IKnowPhysics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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